DB Cooper

[smokin99 0]

Discussion points:
It appears that there was very little evidence left on the plane. While not 100% sure that the tie belonged to Cooper, the probability is reasonably high and it's all we've got left.

Apparently, there were particles on the tie which Tom Kaye and Co. identified as pure titanium. On his website, he states that pure titanium would not have been used in the mfg of aircraft (military or otherwise),(only titanium alloy). This would include the Boeing SST project. From this data, the interpretation was made by the CS team that Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry.

So.. if we stipulate that the tie was Cooper's, seems like the pure titanium could help narrow down the pool of suspects.

Snowmman mentioned that he has a document that shows that pure titanium was used in the Boeing SST project. I would be interested in seeing it. Anyone else?

Thoughts? Discussion?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

Computers are not the problem Jo, old school bookkeeping has it's fair share
of error's, books of knowledge have a fair share of error's in them. error's were
being made since the beginning of mankind. nothing is perfect in this world.

we get misinformation from the weather, news broadcasts, newspapers etc.
we are all here to find some truth in all of this, resisting or not being able to
access things don't help the cause much either.....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

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The news Bruce and Blevins didn't give you:

http://q13fox.com/2013/04/27/homicide-leads-to-warning-for-nearby-residents/#axzz2RmG3jPoY

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/04/body_found_in_washington_home.html

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Body-found-at-home-of-DB-Cooper-parachute-packer-4468172.php

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/04/26/2574781/king-county-detectives-investigate.html

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/D.B.-Cooper/1277861813

Personal accounts:

I can't believe this.

Earl Cossey, a former junior high school teacher of mine in my hometown of Woodinville, Washington (an east side suburb outside Seattle) was found dead by his daughter last night in his garage. Police found head trauma and have declared as of today that the case is officially a homicide.

Mr. Cossey was also a professional parachute jumper and was involved in the 1971 DB Cooper case. He was one of two men who supplied parachutes for the FBI to give to Cooper at Sea-Tac airport during the Thanksgiving Eve skyjacking.

I had him in 7th grade for my Airsports class... where he taught us about the history and engineering of planes and rockets, and we built them as models. And he was so passionate when he told us his story about be being involved in the Cooper case. He also showed us the old 70's DB Cooper episode of "In Search Of" with Leonard Nimoy that also featured Cossey explaining the parachutes and Cooper's jump.

He was a very friendly man and had a great sense of humor. He always had us laughing. My sisters and I are shocked by the news of this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends. He will be truly missed.

And I hope his killer is brought to justice soon!

------------------------------------------------------

I too was a student of Cossey at Leota Jr high, and I always thought that his Airsports class was the best elective of my primary education. He must have been around 25 then and funny genuine guy. He told the DB cooper story but I don't recall if he said it was him or one of two guys. What I do know is that he and his wife were both involved in education, if I remember correctly she was a counselor at the high school. I ended up becoming a pilot and just last year made my first jump.. He was actually the first guy I thought about after I landed because he just loved jumping. He offered any of the students to come down to the old Issaquah airfield (long gone) and watch jumping on the weekends.. I'm now retired from King County Sheriffs Office and I know that my friends there will find out who did this, cooper nut or just a scumbag.. Either way Coss did not deserve this nor did his family. In closing who really gives a s*it how many chutes who packed them or what color they were.. if DB cooper were alive, he would have come out and sold the rights to his book and movie when the statue of limitations was up.. Just like government cover ups, someone will always talk when there is money on the table RIP Coss, you were a good guy..

That's a wonderful post Jim! Thanks!

I hope things go well with this -- take care.

G.

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[georger 197]

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Simplest version, not necessarily fact, but included in Geoff Gray's book:

Reserve (front chutes): Picked up in Issaquah by the Washington State Patrol. Chutes given out to them by Linn Emrich. One of these didn't work.

Main (back chutes): Stuffed into a taxicab by Hayden, who *allegedly* had recently purchased them from Cossey. These arrived at the airport first. All four were supposedly brought on board by Mucklow.

You might just be right ??? Time will tell . . .

It may come down to what Cossey meant by "his".
Maybe 'originally his', in reference to the back packs.
???

[georger 197]

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LOL...none of you had a peep to say about those things. Check in time at (wait for it)...the Reality Hotel.

I stand by every word I wrote about your post on another site. I'm not gonna repeat what I said and I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you, but suffice to say, at best, it was tasteless, and.....as I said before....rationalize it all you want....but if you can't see that - I don't know what to tell you.

As for Georger's remarks, you're right, they were also tasteless. As for not mentioning anything about it, to be be honest, I didn't even read it the first go round. I tend to slide over any comments between you and Georger on this site. They are usually 3rd grade, tit for tat, absolute and utter nonsense that is not worth the time or the effort to read.

Yeah, Georger and some others need to chill out with their Blevins derangement syndrome, but also consider this: One day, maybe you ought to read your posts. Since you've said, more than once, that you consider yourself a nice guy, no doubt you would be amazed at the way you come across on this forum. But on this too...I figure that will be when hell freezes over cause guys like you just don't get it. I'm done with this. Carry on.

Well I dont see that 'this; is the place or the time to
discuss this! Sorry.

My remarks re-Blevins on Cossey were meant as
humor to try and skate around the fact of Blevins'
tasteless opportunistic trolling, which he does on all
subjects ...

If Blevins had been pounding you for the last several
years you would be tired of it and raw too ...

no further comments needed.

[georger 197]

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Bruce Smith says in part:

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'In addition, speculation has run rampant over the possibility that this homicide might be linked to the DB Cooper investigation. Cossey has come under increasing attacks in recent years for his inconsistencies in describing his role in the skyjacking saga...'

Come on, Bruce. It hasn't 'run rampant,' although it's been mentioned occasionally. I made a comment about it saying there ARE 'Cooper Nuts' out there and the cops should check Cossey's phone records, just in case. But that's a pretty remote possibility. Most of the comments I've seen on media are sympathy messages from people who knew Cossey when he was teaching middle school, or knew him when he was parachute-active.

Let's not go overboard here. Chances are much greater it was something else. There have also been a rash of burglaries in the area.

I was thinking maybe Cossey would like this song. I don't know why exactly. Just a thought. I hope the cops get to the bottom of this soon, and my sincerest sympathies to the family.

As far as Georger and some of his comments on Cossey and his family, I think he might relate to this song instead...

My cat Hobo and I agree. You should offer an apology.

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I have received two phone calls from people associated with Norjak who are afraid for thier lives in the wake of Cossey's apparent murder.

Why!? I find this ridiculous and speculative/drama.

[mrshutter45 21]

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I keep finding companies that sell different grades of commercially pure titanium in several forms. This one states the uses of this material and the grades. Uses are many, apparently.

Here is another.

where they around in the early 70's???

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

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Hi G,

I was one of the mainstays at Issaquah when this DB Cooper thing happened. The TV crew was all over our clubhouse and I was packing a reserve and they filmed me and used it as backdrop for the story on the news.

I almost lived at the clubhouse at the time, but I wasn't there the night all this went down, and it's been more than 40 years ago. What I remember hearing was that the WSP drove out to the clubhouse and picked up parachutes (must have been the reserves) and took them to the airport. Linn Emrich ? lived at the field and so he must have got them out of the equipment room. We had that prop reserve all sewn up so that when we had students practicing throwing it out that we didn't have a big mess to untangle every time. My memory is that there was so much material removed from it that it was obvious that it was fake. Linn would have known that, so that is one aspect of this that I don't understand.

Coss did business with a lot of aircraft owners and packed their rigs for them both at home and at the club. So the backpacks must have come from him and may have been owned by the other guy in this story. That's all I can think.

Coss was a great guy and will be missed. I really hope it turns out to be a mistake and this was all an accident, but it doesn't sound like it. I was looking for more information when I came across this thread, so I registered and couldn't resist adding some notes even if I don't really have a good recollection of the facts in this.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob everyone will appreciate your remarks - thanks
again OM.

Maybe Coss encountered an intruder in his garage?
I hope this breaks and you get to the bottom of it -

Thanks again...

[georger 197]

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My notes from my phone interviews and recollection are that Cossey told me that he was home when he got the call from NWO, and the two back chutes were at his home as well, and he put them in taxi and sent them to Boeing Field.

Here's what I think about the chutes, based on my reading of the posts. When ckret/Carr was reading from the files, he posted that though all four were packed by Cossey, 2 of the chutes actually came from Issaquah and two of the chutes came from an unnamed person who now has ownership - courtesy of a cab.
Then approx 6 months later, two of the chutes came directly from Cossey, from his house. Now, folks can say what they will on this forum, and yes, in the scheme of things, it might appear to be a small thing, but the two statements just plain don't match.

My supposition is that Carr got the original information from the files, and then he changed it after he talked to Cossey (he interviewed Cossey and was quite taken with him per his posts). This was in the time frame of the story changing, if I remember correctly.
Hey, I'm not saying that Carr decided to go with a 40 year old memory as opposed to what was written in the FBI files from interviews of the time.....but it sure looks that way. Is that good procedure or not? Frankly, I don't know. Inconsequential? Don't know that either. But yeah, in my mind, just sayin, it kind of raises some questions.

I think Mr. Burnham's account jibes with other's
accounts and has to be taken as factual, which
explains the reserves, ie.

"What I remember hearing was that the WSP drove
out to the clubhouse and picked up parachutes (must
have been the reserves) and took them to the airport.
Linn Emrich ? lived at the field and so he must have
got them out of the equipment room. We had that
prop reserve all sewn up so that when we had
students practicing throwing it out that we didn't have
a big mess to untangle every time. My memory is that
there was so much material removed from it that it
was obvious that it was fake. Linn would have known
that, so that is one aspect of this that I don't
understand. "

So, at dispute are the two backpacks ... unless there
were four (4) backpacks collected? Two from Cossey
and two from Hayden? (The Hayden backpacks not
delivered or used). ?

Let me back off and not complicate this further -

[georger 197]

Smokin99! You are certainly SMOKIN' today. I think you're on to something very important, and it jives with a PM that I just received from Snowmman, who advises me to consult with Tosaw, p. 14.

"Lee phoned Cossey at his home and told him about the emergency and that they needed two back and two chest parachutes. Cossey told Lee that he had recently packed two back chutes and that he could pick them up at nearby Boeing Field."

So, it appears that once upon a time Cossey's story jived exactly with the Hayden scenario.

Then Cossey changed his story and interjected himself into the saga and the investigation.

In 2009-2011 Cossey told me that he was home when NWO called, he owned the two chutes and they were at his home and then he put them into a taxi that headed to Boeing Field. He never explained to me why he didn't send them to Sea-Tac.

At least that is what I heard Earl tell me.

He denied ever knowing Hayden.
He said that NWO paid him for his chutes.

From then on Earl became the go-to-guy for Cooper parachute questions. He became in effect the FBI's tech spokesperson.

He also helped shape the FBI's new narrative that DBC was a fool and died in the jump, using the "NB-8 is an inferior chute" as ruse. It worked for 40 years, but has been unraveling over the past two years. That demise also threatens the FBI who have relied on Cossey to shore up their spin story on Cooper.

[georger 197]

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Yeah...that last post I just made was a real troll for sure. Nobody's been pounding on you, Georger. Instead of worrying about me, how about sticking to the subject of the thread, i.e. Cooper-related stuff. We can leave it at that and I'll forget about the things you've said about my work, Gayla, whatever.

On those titanium links I posted back there, I thought I saw someone say pure titanium was rarely used for anything? Those companies list quite a few apps, including aerospace...in the pure forms. The one business says it's been around since 1965, on its About Us page.

New article on Mr. Cossey...

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/former-relative-says-hell-be-surprised-if-man-kill/nXZ72/

[smokin99 0]

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So, at dispute are the two backpacks ... unless there
were four (4) backpacks collected? Two from Cossey
and two from Hayden? (The Hayden backpacks not
delivered or used). ?

Let me back off and not complicate this further

I don't think there is dispute that Hayden owned them (at least one of them) (See the pdf file, plus the Hayden chute's serial number matches the serial number posted by ckret (from the intact chute that was left on the plane)
I also don't think there is dispute about who packed them AND who probably had knowledge of them - Cossey was the rigger, it was Cossey's seal.

The only dispute is that the story changed from what was in the FBI file (chutes came from Issaquah and hayden) to chutes came from Issaquah and Cossey.
The pdf and Carr originally say that Hayden had the two chutes in question and put them in the cab.
Tosaw says that the cab picked them up from Boeing where Cossey had left them.
Cossey (and Carr revised) says that the two in question came from Cossey's house.

My only point about this whole issue was how can we expect journalists (and armchair detectives) to get it right when the story changes from the FBI. I was originally calling Bruce's report into question because he claimed that Cossey was saying that the chutes came from him. I asked if Cossey ever said that or was it just what was reported? I mentioned that Carr said that two of the chutes came from Hayden. Then I find through further reading that Carr changed the story after talking to Cossey - essentially throwing out the written record.
Doesn't make the original story completely wrong necessarily, but it is a change from the written record and deserves at least a wonder why?

I suspect Tosaw's version is likely as near to the truth as not. Namely that the airline/FBI called Cossey and he arranged for the chutes to be picked up from Boeing or from Hayden. Over the years, I imagine the memory got honed down to "they called and i provided them with the chutes".

I heard once that memories are just another way of reliving the event - it's like the memory is an actual event itself and everytime we remember, it changes in some way. I can't explain this well without looking it up (it's a memory thing , but maybe you get my drift.
I suspect that as much as Mr. Cossey might have gotten tired of the annual press and all, at some level he probably got a kick out of it. As well he should. His 15 mins and all.

The other point well made by Bruce is that Cossey was in a position of expert advisor to the FBI regarding the chutes and whether Cooper survived or not. I would think that level of input to a criminal case should require a certain amount of "voir dire" for want of a better word and, if his memory didn't entirely match the stuff that was in the file, maybe a re-check of the evidence would be in order.

Though again, I don't dispute his knowledge of the chutes, the fabric, or expert opinion. Maybe that knowledge was all that was of concern at the time to Carr and he was less concerned with logistics.

Just things that make you go hmmm, but i've beat this horse in the ground...so I'll yield the floor.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 197]

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So, at dispute are the two backpacks ... unless there
were four (4) backpacks collected? Two from Cossey
and two from Hayden? (The Hayden backpacks not
delivered or used). ?

Let me back off and not complicate this further

I don't think there is dispute that Hayden owned them (at least one of them) (See the pdf file, plus the Hayden chute's serial number matches the serial number posted by ckret (from the intact chute that was left on the plane)
I also don't think there is dispute about who packed them AND who probably had knowledge of them - Cossey was the rigger, it was Cossey's seal.

The only dispute is that the story changed from what was in the FBI file (chutes came from Issaquah and hayden) to chutes came from Issaquah and Cossey.
The pdf and Carr originally say that Hayden had the two chutes in question and put them in the cab.
Tosaw says that the cab picked them up from Boeing where Cossey had left them.
Cossey (and Carr revised) says that the two in question came from Cossey's house.

What is the date of the PDF? Is it possible whoever
wrote the pdf didn't have all of the facts straight.

Two front reserve chutes came from Issaquah.
Emerick is named. But in another account Emerick was
not there at the time, and some woman is named as
the person who actually got the chutes off a shelf and
gave them to the WHP. Cossey explained later that
was how the dud training reserve got selected,
because Emerick wasn't there and would have known
better.

All of these versions are back in the thread -

Tosaw's words are: " "Cossey told Lee that he had
recently packed two back chutes and that he could
pick them up at nearby Boeing Field."

I guess it is possible that Cossey had recently packed
Hayden's chutes and used them. Ownership is then
generic for Cossey, and literal for Hayden? Or Haden
had them, but Cossey had recently packed them?

The dispute is: 'who' sent the chutes off to Boeing
field.? Hayden or Cossey? Who had the chutes
in-hand to send?

[georger 197]

I took a lot of heat about it. That's okay, but let's remember that it was Cossey who was the main source for saying the Amboy chute wasn't Cooper's.

[Robert99 37]

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Maybe Cossey grabbed what he had and was
confident in. Isn't that what one of Cossey's friends
posted here years ago? That is was an emergency, a
mad scramble. He only had two chutes he was
confident in. But one had been modified for his
personal use (left hand hard pull) and he forgot
about this at the time, then worried about it later . . .

Smokin and Georger, If Cossey's back pack had a left-hand pull, which was rather unusual for that day, then perhaps it suggests that Cooper was left handed and selected the NB-6 for that reason.

Robert99

[georger 197]

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Maybe Cossey grabbed what he had and was
confident in. Isn't that what one of Cossey's friends
posted here years ago? That is was an emergency, a
mad scramble. He only had two chutes he was
confident in. But one had been modified for his
personal use (left hand hard pull) and he forgot
about this at the time, then worried about it later . . .

Smokin and Georger, If Cossey's back pack had a left-hand pull, which was rather unusual for that day, then perhaps it suggests that Cooper was left handed and selected the NB-6 for that reason.

Robert99

That has been suggested before. Nobody has ever
addressed this, so far as I know.

Likewise, did one of Hayden's chute have this strange
left hand hard pull, if he owned both chutes? It must
have ?

Or are we now talking about two guys and four chutes!

... and where this ends nobody knows.
except that one serial number matches one of
Hayden's chutes ?

I can already hear the answer: No. Hayden's chutes
do not have a lefthand hard pull, debated for months
re- the Cossey chute Cooper chose. Therefore: Marla
made it all up!

I keep wondering what progress Gray has made with
this, if any? Or maybe he has more info we don;t
have?

[georger 197]

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I took a lot of heat about it. That's okay, but let's remember that it was Cossey who was the main source for saying the Amboy chute wasn't Cooper's.

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We don't know that at all!

You take heat because every account says 'Cossey and
other experts'.

What is there about "other experts" you don;t
understand or keep refusing to accept, and why ?

Other experts? Okay. Name ONE.

And not 'every account' says that. Just the last couple of articles done on the event, only one day before they wrote it off completely for good. And in none of those articles or releases does it say that these experts had a hand in it. Only Cossey is mentioned. In the articles where the 'experts' are mentioned, the FBI rep only says they are GOING to do it. No one knows if they really did.

Beats me. Ask the people who wrote the articles and
the FBI, I guess.

Havent we been over this conspiracy ground of yours
1 million times and still you have made no progress
with it..

You do know the FBI does not live to make internet
super sleuths and book writers happy. don;t you?
?

[georger 197]

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If the FBI's conclusions on the Amboy chute are wrong, I don't think it was a conspiracy. Hard to talk about this right now. I'll suggest that the chute wasn't actually made of silk.

Play it again Sam.

[skyjack71 0]

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Discussion points:
It appears that there was very little evidence left on the plane. While not 100% sure that the tie belonged to Cooper, the probability is reasonably high and it's all we've got left.

Apparently, there were particles on the tie which Tom Kaye and Co. identified as pure titanium. On his website, he states that pure titanium would not have been used in the mfg of aircraft (military or otherwise),(only titanium alloy). This would include the Boeing SST project. From this data, the interpretation was made by the CS team that Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry.

So.. if we stipulate that the tie was Cooper's, seems like the pure titanium could help narrow down the pool of suspects.

Snowmman mentioned that he has a document that shows that pure titanium was used in the Boeing SST project. I would be interested in seeing it. Anyone else?

Thoughts? Discussion?

I made a post a long time ago about Titanium used in Golf clubs. One of the manufacters was in Denver, Co and the other one on the East Coast. I was ignored! The fact Duane pointed this manufacture out in Denver to me - and the Golf Clubs with titanium he got in Vail or Aspen that a OLD FRIEND made for him.
I still have the damn CLUBS.

I am just a dumb broad - the manufacture of custom golf clubs was ignored.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

I can already hear the answer: No. Hayden's chutes
do not have a lefthand hard pull, debated for months
re- the Cossey chute Cooper chose. Therefore: Marla
made it all up!

I keep wondering what progress Gray has made with
this, if any? Or maybe he has more info we don;t
have?

[georger 197]

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I can already hear the answer: No. Hayden's chutes
do not have a lefthand hard pull, debated for months
re- the Cossey chute Cooper chose. Therefore: Marla
made it all up!

I keep wondering what progress Gray has made with
this, if any? Or maybe he has more info we don;t
have?

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The Hayden chute I saw and photograhed had a left-hand pull.

That could be interesting.

How many chutes does Hayden have that he says
were selected for Cooper. One or two? It has to be
one if Cooper used the other one? Correct?

[Robert99 37]

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I can already hear the answer: No. Hayden's chutes
do not have a lefthand hard pull, debated for months
re- the Cossey chute Cooper chose. Therefore: Marla
made it all up!

I keep wondering what progress Gray has made with
this, if any? Or maybe he has more info we don;t
have?

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The Hayden chute I saw and photograhed had a left-hand pull.

Bruce, Could you post a photograph showing the left hand pull.

Robert99

[BruceSmith 3]

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Bruce: Are you saying that the chute Cooper actually used did NOT have a left-hand pull? I know you've seen the other one already, the one the FBI returned to Hayden. I don't know one way or another what pulls either chute was. Just wondering. Maybe you should set the record straight for both chutes on the pulls.

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I can only tell you what I saw and what I was told.

Norman told me that the two chutes he provided were identical, so presumably the other Hayden chute - the one not recovered and supposdly used by DBC - would also be a left-hand pull.

• Quote

[BruceSmith 3]

Bruce, Could you post a photograph showing the left hand pull.

Robert99

[georger 197]

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I can already hear the answer: No. Hayden's chutes
do not have a lefthand hard pull, debated for months
re- the Cossey chute Cooper chose. Therefore: Marla
made it all up!

I keep wondering what progress Gray has made with
this, if any? Or maybe he has more info we don;t
have?

Quote

Photos removed by order of Blevins.

The Hayden chute I saw and photograhed had a left-hand pull.

Bruce, Could you post a photograph showing the left hand pull.

Robert99

Here -

Photos removed by order of Blevins.