TomKaye 1
Please let me clarify:
We did find titanium metal on the tie.
This was pure titanium which is NOT part of a structural airplane part.
We do not think Cooper worked at an airplane factory.
We do think he worked at a titanium manufacturing plant or a plant that used pure titanium for their process equipment.
We originally thought we found the by-products of titanium manufacturing which consisted of particles of titanium, chlorine and sodium. If this were true (which it turns out it isn't) then it would have lead us to a particular TI plant. After extensive research, we determined that these particles came from the match heads when Cooper lit his cigarettes. Gray released the information about titanium sponge against our will before we were done researching when we still thought it could be from a TI production plant.
This should clarify our position on all this.
Tom Kaye
georger 197
QuoteAll,
Please let me clarify:
We did find titanium metal on the tie.
This was pure titanium which is NOT part of a structural airplane part.
We do not think Cooper worked at an airplane factory.
We do think he worked at a titanium manufacturing plant or a plant that used pure titanium for their process equipment.
We originally thought we found the by-products of titanium manufacturing which consisted of particles of titanium, chlorine and sodium. If this were true (which it turns out it isn't) then it would have lead us to a particular TI plant. After extensive research, we determined that these particles came from the match heads when Cooper lit his cigarettes. Gray released the information about titanium sponge against our will before we were done researching when we still thought it could be from a TI production plant.
This should clarify our position on all this.
Tom Kaye
A couple of questions for clarification -
Are you saying the "titanium, chlorine and sodium"
your quote above, came from match heads? And
does that include the 60 micron long piece of
Titanium you have pictured at your website ?
In other words, are you including the 60 mic piece
in your list of "particles" you associate with match
heads?
Second: does the 60 micron long piece look finished
(machined)? With broken ends ?
Third, I had better ask this: what is different about
the form of chlorine you found vs chlorine one might
find in a public washroom, on the airplane?
Thanks.
TomKaye 1
your quote above, came from match heads?"
Yes, we found individual particles with those combined elements in the particle.
"does that include the 60 micron long piece of
Titanium you have pictured at your website ?"
No the 60 micron particle was actual titanium metal that was smeared and had stainless embedded in it.
"In other words, are you including the 60 mic piece
in your list of "particles" you associate with match
heads?"
No, the pure titanium metal particles were very different from the others that contained a combination of elements.
"Second: does the 60 micron long piece look finished
(machined)? With broken ends ?"
It had smear marks on it so it could have been machined or came from some device that could smash and distort the particle.
"Third, I had better ask this: what is different about
the form of chlorine you found vs chlorine one might
find in a public washroom, on the airplane?"
It was in the form of particles that additionally contained sodium and titanium. Our database that is also used by the FBI, shows that chlorine, sodium and titanium dioxide are common in matches.
Tom Kaye
georger 197
Quote
"Are you saying the "titanium, chlorine and sodium"
your quote above, came from match heads?"
Yes, we found individual particles with those combined elements in the particle.
"does that include the 60 micron long piece of
Titanium you have pictured at your website ?"
No the 60 micron particle was actual titanium metal that was smeared and had stainless embedded in it.
"In other words, are you including the 60 mic piece
in your list of "particles" you associate with match
heads?"
No, the pure titanium metal particles were very different from the others that contained a combination of elements.
"Second: does the 60 micron long piece look finished
(machined)? With broken ends ?"
It had smear marks on it so it could have been machined or came from some device that could smash and distort the particle.
"Third, I had better ask this: what is different about
the form of chlorine you found vs chlorine one might
find in a public washroom, on the airplane?"
It was in the form of particles that additionally contained sodium and titanium. Our database that is also used by the FBI, shows that chlorine, sodium and titanium dioxide are common in matches.
Tom Kaye
Thanks Tom - that clarfies a few things.
Not sure what you mean by "smeared".
Worn, compressed on an edge by pressure, oil on
it ... that particle has an interesting edge (surface)
on it.
Thanks -
mrshutter45 21
"No the 60 micron particle was actual titanium metal that was smeared and had stainless embedded in it."
I work with a lot of different metals and when combined you need to separate the two different metals because of corrosion, however,
BACKGROUND CONTEXT:
Surgeons are hesitant to mix components made of differing metal classes for fear of galvanic corrosion complications. However, in vitro studies have failed to show a significant potential for galvanic corrosion between titanium and stainless steel, the two primary metallic alloys used for spinal implants. Galvanic corrosion resulting from metal mixing has not been described in the literature for spinal implant systems.
T.O. 33B-1-14-664.5.8.3 Metal Smearing.Flowing of surface metal may result from machining operations, abrasion during service, or by deformation duringassembly or disassembly of an aircraft or component. The depth of smearing in nonmagnetic materials and itsmetallurgical effects will rarely exceed 0.002 to 0.003 inch. At normal crack detection frequencies, the metallurgicalchanges created by smeared metal may not affect eddy current response. However, metal build-up and depressionsassociated with the smearing create changes in lift-off. With meter type instruments this change may exceed lift-offcompensation and cause irrelevant indications. With impedance plane analysis instruments detection of flaws will notbe affected, if sufficiently separated in phase angle from the lift-off angle. In ferromagnetic steel, eddy currentpenetration is very shallow, and any blemish of the surface increases the difficulty of inspection
sailshaw 0
You say:"Fact: All titanium used in aircraft is alloyed and the Cooper material was pure titanium.
Interpretation: Due to the lack of alloyed titanium, Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry."
My candidate for DB is Sheridan Peterson who's office was in the 9-101 building, 2nd floor just above the research Materials and Processes Lab which was involved in looking at many things to do with Titanium including flame spraying powered (pure) Titanium. The scrap tub skids would have been a source for DB to pick-up all that was found on the tie. Tom Kayne mentioned he concluded the Titanium he found from the tie was from match heads DB would have used as a smoker. However, the Boeing Materials and Processes Lab is my best bet for the source of the Titanium and Aluminum found on the tie.
Bob Sailshaw
mrshutter45 21
everything I put on that post was from Citizen Sleuths site, this was the reason I was confused about the matches, still am 
I'm looking into this issue of Titanium in matches since I am not in this field of expertise I'm trying to understand it better.
didn't Peterson retract the statement of being Cooper at one point?
377 21
377
sailshaw 0
Tom never said any such thing. The pieces of sold
titanium metal are just that - have nothing to do
with match heads/smoker. You have this confused.
Nowhere on Tom's site does he make any
association between the Ti particles and match
heads. The two are completely incompatible. Go
back and read the pertinent material on Tom's site."
Sorry Georger, but your Fact about Tom Kayne is not in agreement with what he told me in person. He said that his latest conclusion (not reported anywhere else) about the Titanium was it was from the match heads that DB had been using. Was Tom just feeding me BS or are you not up to date on his latest thinking about the findings on the tie? Maybe Tom is like Cossey and likes to tell untrue things as facts. Who knows? However, you can believe me that what I say is to the best of my knowledge of what I know.
Bob Sailshaw
mrshutter45 21
QuoteSoooo refreshing to see a discussion of Norjack facts rather than personal squabbles and wild conspiracy theories.
377
It's been over a year with the same smell in the room, I cracked a window to let a "Draft" in for some refreshing air to circulate
mrshutter45 21
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georger 197
Bob, when I spoke with Tom Kaye in Portland at the Symposium, he told me the Titanium found was similar to an aircarft alloy, and that Cooper was possibly involved with the SST development at Boeing.
This was a reversal of his initital speculations that the titanium found on the tie was a non-aircraft alloy form of titanium called titanium sponge because of the presence of tell-tale chemical markers, most notably the chlorine and sulfur particles he also found on the tie.
However, Tom and the CST later determined that the choline and sulfur most likely came from matchhead residues and not the natural form of titanium sponge.
I need to write about this angle, as it gives strong inference that DB Cooper was a Boeing employee - picking up Ti particles on his clothing and learning about the jump capabilities of the 727.
I like the scenario of Cooper leaning into the scrap tubs and having a tie dangle onto the goodies.
I think Tom has discussed these findings here, but the situation is a bit murky so greater clarification is welcome in my view.
Hi Bruce.
I thought your and Meyer's trip to Amboy was
interesting.
Hopfully Tom will come here to discuss his findings,
but if you plan to publish something you need to
get a few facts straight first. Facts of chemistry for
one. I know its not easy if a person has little
exposure to these matters before, but take a little
time, quote Tom directly when possible, and ask
Tom for clarifications - all prior to publishing
something embarassing?
Now bare with this -
Tom ran 450+ spectrometrics on all of the particles
and substances found. He probably cross checked
these results with a NIST or FBI matching software.
He probably then did an environmental match of
some kind; maybe several matches to try and get
some idea of where th substances found occur in
Nature, or in human life. So, when Tom
says "machine shop" that would be a 'search match"
vs. something Tom just came up with on his own.
It's may understanding that Tom never said Ti
sponge as an identification. That came from
someone outside the CS team, and Geof Gray
began spreading the word erroneously without
checking. We think we know who began the myth of
Ti sponge, but I wont discuss that. That is Tom's
to speak about or not. The Ti particles found are all
finished metal, rather pure it seems, but not Ti
sponge or any other intermediary form, but the kind
of finished metal one might find in a specialty
machine shop. That is one reason Tom has
published saying "machine shop" - his choice of
words is not an accident or coincidental but the result
of spectroscopic identification and matching work
with several entities including an FBI forensic data
base, on Tom and Alan's part.
The exact form of finished Ti metal particles Tom
found seems to have been identified, by Tom and
Alan. Tom has not given details about that on his
website.
Lastly, it is chlorine, not "coline", so far as I know.
Again refer to Tom's site. Tom attributes chlorine and
sulfur to the matches-smoking. (My own personal
thought is that Cooper visited the head and was
there a length of time, maybe washed his face, etc -
a place regularly cleaned with substances containing
chlorine). Tom attributes the chlorine to matches.
Maybe Tom will come and clarify some of this -
But pay attention to Tom's element wheel as it
relates to particles found on the tie. There is a lot of
information there.
Lastly, Jo asked some time ago about emery.
Spelled emery, not emory. Emery is basically
carborundum (aluminum oxide) found in nature,
and so far as I know has nothing to do with the
particles found on Cooper's tie. See Tom's element
wheel.
Questions?
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