BobKnoss 0 #32551 May 31, 2012 QuoteBob, Why waste your time on a forum which is largely hostile to or at least highly skeptical of your theories and claims? Quade is an exception, he gives your story the same (low) credence rating as any others he has seen posted here. Talk about having an open mind... If you indeed have PROOF that the govt was corrupt enough to stage NORJACK why dont you become a whistleblower? The pay can be really good. All you need to do is prove that someone has knowingly submitted or caused the submission of false or fraudulent claims to the United States. The relator need not have been personally harmed by the defendant's conduct; instead, the relator is recognized as receiving legal standing to sue by way of a "partial assignment" of the injury to the government caused by the alleged fraud. Surely there must be a few false claims buried in the NORJACK mess, after all there were substantial financial losses. Payment of govt funds to compensate criminal conspirators might be considered to be part of a false claim. Who knows? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qui_tam 377 The money from the hijack was written off by the insurance company as a "good investment." McCoy got his "paycheck" from his wife's lawsuit. Duane's checks were in the way of employment with the insurance company, although he never earned his way. Nobody else was paid for the Project except their normal employment as near as I know, so I see no payment avenues to pursue. The false claim of McCoy's death is common place with the undercover shift of a name change on an exposed or overused agent like McCoy. That false death is well documented by Brit Hume on Pasternak's PBS round table when Hume confirmed George Tenet verifying Richard McCoy as the only agent ever to get his job back. Look at the effort expended to investigate the Watergate break-in. The Norjak Project is just another Nixon Dirty Trick. Originally designed to be a union demonstration of pilot vulnerability and airline policy deficiencies, it was changed into a covert political football to help enact unpopular legislation by subsequent Presidential Executive Order. Not what was intended by the two creators of the concept, and a complete surprise to TOG. The effort to try this case is dumbfounding, and as Carr indicated, not FBI doable. As Nuttal says, it would have to be initiated by a State Attorney General from a state the plane flew over. My rights were violated by being interrogated under hypnosis without any defense. I was given a 4 year sentence as a threat to accept a suspension assignment to Norjak. THAT was illegal. The President, I am advised, can legally do what Nixon did, the crime was Cooper's alone, since the original plan was an approved demonstration returning the money. Nixon made it a crime, not our guys. I put Norjak on the same table as Watergate. Just another verse in the same poem. Where is the whistleblower foundation? Too big to handle. I just want to present it, not prove it. I'm not up to the task. If you want to handle the case, OK. I'll work with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32552 May 31, 2012 "Sluggo_Monster Aug 9, 2009, 9:18 AM Post #12132 of 34355 (5012 views) Jo’s Perceptions When I see your post about things I have said, decisions I have made, and conversations we (you and I) have had, I realize that your perception is VERY different from mine. This casts doubt on all the other things you have told me. If I was starting over, looking into Duane’s past, I would be skeptical of everything you said in cases where you did not have evidence (like Pasternak’s research). Jo… you have a very interesting story when it comes to having been married to Duane. You have a LOT of evidence (mostly undisclosed) about what an unusual character Duane was. If I had time, I would research some of Duane’s past (like his Chemical and Biological Warfare experience at Camp Siebert in Gadsden, AL)* * and try to figure out some of the things he was “into”. But, alas I don’t have the time. You are a dear person, I (still) consider you my friend, I wish only good things for you. But, you have let the trolls, hucksters, devils, and just plain cruel SOBs of this world drive you to the brink of madness. This madness will cause you to drive away the people who want to help you the most. Don’t slide over the edge. I have posted here a dozen (or so) times; “Those that know, aren’t talking and those that are talking, don’t know.” Let me say that (to you specifically) in another way. SHUT UP! THE INVESTIGATION IS ONGOING, THE PEOPLE YOU BADGER CONSTANTLY (by berating their efforts) ARE SEEKING THE TRUTH. WHEN THE TIME COMES, YOU’LL KNOW WHAT THEY KNOW… NOT BEFORE!!" The above is a quotation from Sluggo a long time ago, word for word. It is absolutely amazing that I should have to repeat the EXACT SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! You could be a reincarnated Rosanne Rosannadanna because you do THE EXACT SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN that Gilda Radner did to be funny. Only you are not funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #32553 May 31, 2012 A really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #32554 May 31, 2012 QuoteA really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? Unlikely, unless the chute was really aged, poorly maintained and the A/C was in the max range of deployment speed. BUT, not impossible. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32555 May 31, 2012 QuoteA really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? "Coop" as we called him was trained to pull on the count of ten seconds which was enough time from 170 kts to slow him down. The particular chute that was provided in the dummy pack (the good chute marked with the "X") was chosen by, packed by, and stitched shut by a very topnotch packer guy with significant jumpers respect. The chute did not fail, because Duane Weber lived through it. No 727 jumpers have EVER been killed attempting this jump. I do not know where TOG got the chute, but because it worked, it must have been OK. Huh? There have been hundreds of higher speed successful jumps. I think your point is proven mute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32556 May 31, 2012 Quote Bleu, Bleu, bleu,Bleu, Bleu Bait, bait, bait, bait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #32557 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteA really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? "Coop" as we called him was trained to pull on the count of ten seconds which was enough time from 170 kts to slow him down. The particular chute that was provided in the dummy pack (the good chute marked with the "X") was chosen by, packed by, and stitched shut by a very topnotch packer guy with significant jumpers respect. The chute did not fail, because Duane Weber lived through it. No 727 jumpers have EVER been killed attempting this jump. I do not know where TOG got the chute, but because it worked, it must have been OK. Huh? There have been hundreds of higher speed successful jumps. I think your point is proven mute. The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. Most military static line jumps are from aircraft doing about 140 MPH or close to that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #32558 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteA really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? "Coop" as we called him was trained to pull on the count of ten seconds which was enough time from 170 kts to slow him down. The particular chute that was provided in the dummy pack (the good chute marked with the "X") was chosen by, packed by, and stitched shut by a very topnotch packer guy with significant jumpers respect. The chute did not fail, because Duane Weber lived through it. No 727 jumpers have EVER been killed attempting this jump. I do not know where TOG got the chute, but because it worked, it must have been OK. Huh? There have been hundreds of higher speed successful jumps. I think your point is proven mute. The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. Most military static line jumps are from aircraft doing about 140 MPH or close to that. Closer to 155 MPH. Having taught it for most of my career, and jumped over 18 years of it as well. But, a sewn shut chute, tends not to work, exit speed would not matter. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #32559 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteA really, REALLY old ex-loadmaster told me recently that the chute would likely have blown out, especially if Coop didn't slow to terminal before pulling, because the nylon panels were sewn together with cotton thread which would deteriorate much more than the panels. I have no idea if he has any knowledge of where the chute was obtained. What do you think? Unlikely, unless the chute was really aged, poorly maintained and the A/C was in the max range of deployment speed. BUT, not impossible. Matt Yeah. Not like the chute would have been left spread out in the sun all the time. Is it true that cotton was used to sew panels together? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #32560 May 31, 2012 Quote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #32561 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32562 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. My understanding was that the speed fell below the recommended stall speed before it was realized, no problems. Was that MPH or KTS? 170 was a number that sounds familiar from that conversation. I'm not sure, could have been 160, but I'd be surprised. The co-pilot would know. Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32563 May 31, 2012 "But, a sewn shut chute, tends not to work, exit speed would not matter." You will have to trust me on this one, Matt. The sewn shut bag was to insure no tampering. Duane knew to pull out the stitching! If not, Jerry would have found the money, bought a gold mine and become a millionaire. Hey! wait a minute! Hey, JR, how did you get the gold mine again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #32564 May 31, 2012 QuoteBK did NOT know Duane Weber and he relates only twisted tid bits on this thread. Anyone believing one word of his rants and raves - needs to come SEE me and review the research including the communications I had with BK. BK would state - there was NO Tommy Gunn then several months later Gunn is a key factor in his mind. That is just ONE example. BK did NOT know Duane Weber or D.B. Cooper. Perhaps BK knew McCoy and was the snitch who told the FBI where he was. Perhaps this is why BK is so driven about the Cooper case. BK is dealing with his own conscience - and his own guilt! Now that is a total new approach to BK and maybe a little bird just dropped this on me. You will NEVER know if you don't know Now! Each one of you need to examine WHY BK is involved in the Cooper story at all. Obviously he was NOT part of the Cooper Caper. Why is he driven to make McCoy part of the Cooper story? Guilt? TO ALL: Is Homid talking about the FOUND chute or the chute Cooper jumped with? To All: I am repeating the post above because you GUYS really need to address the point I am making.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #32565 May 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. My understanding was that the speed fell below the recommended stall speed before it was realized, no problems. Was that MPH or KTS? 170 was a number that sounds familiar from that conversation. I'm not sure, could have been 160, but I'd be surprised. The co-pilot would know. Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Knoss, Do you see a single number above, that you didn't write, that doesn't have the units just after the number? Define your terms. "Recommended stall speed?" In 60+ years of hanging around airports, airplanes, pilots, aeronautical engineers, and beautiful women, I have never heard of such a term. Where did I go wrong? Have you noticed a difference between drag strip and personnel parachutes? Maybe in size or design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32566 June 1, 2012 Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #32567 June 1, 2012 BK did NOT know Duane Weber and he relates only twisted tid bits on this thread. Anyone believing one word of his rants and raves - needs to come SEE me and review the research including the communications I had with BK. BK would state - there was NO Tommy Gunn then several months later Gunn is a key factor in his mind. That is just ONE example. BK did NOT know Duane Weber or D.B. Cooper. Perhaps BK knew McCoy and was the snitch who told the FBI where he was. Perhaps this is why BK is so driven about the Cooper case. BK is dealing with his own conscience - and his own guilt! Now that is a total new approach to BK and maybe a little bird just dropped this on me. You will NEVER know if you don't know Now! Each one of you need to examine WHY BK is involved in the Cooper story at all. Obviously he was NOT part of the Cooper Caper. Why is he driven to make McCoy part of the Cooper story? Guilt! ================= PS: The only way BK can handle his guilt is to keep McCoy alive......so much I want to say, but so little I can say! Do you guys think I invented this angle? Not Hardly! Secrets are not usually kept forever.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MeyerLouie 5 #32568 June 1, 2012 Hey Knoss, it was good to see you had taken a break from the forum for a while -- things settled down quite a bit in your absence. Folks starting talking about the case again. You were so disruptive before your break. Now you have returned -- possibly with a new attitude, a new approach. However, your posts are starting to get more frequent (and more bizarre) again, but what really irks me now is the picture that accompanies your posts. Now everytime you post, I have to look at your mug. It was bad enough reading you day in and day out, now I have to look at you. Talk about adding insult to injury...I don't know if I can take it. Can you send me a blowup of your post pic? I was thinking about putting a bullseye on it and sending it out to everyone on the forum to use for dart practice. Might even help alleviate frustration. What do you think. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #32569 June 1, 2012 Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. Jo, you make too many erroneous assumptions about me, like Sluggo_Monster said. A regular Duracell Bunny. Go with the flow. I'm not trying to destroy the Weber story, everyone else is. It's a forest and the trees thingie. You shoot yourself in the foot daily. Give it up! Let's move onward and upward and discuss something Jo likes, PLEASE? I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. Meyer: "Now everytime you post, I have to look at your mug. Can you send me a blowup of your post pic? I was thinking about putting a bullseye on it and sending it out to everyone on the forum to use for dart practice. Might even help alleviate frustration. What do you think. MeyerLouie " Reply: I accommodated your complaint. See attached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #32570 June 1, 2012 QuoteDrag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. OK. So it is obvious to you that parachutes have varying capacities for opening speeds. This is a wonderfully enlightening fact. So, if you were an experienced high altitude jump expert and familiar with emergency jet jumps, you think you could pick a parachute that would open successfully at the speeds Matt suggests?? I suggest that this is another mute point, since Duane survived the jump with only a stairway injury to the right leg. That injury had no causical effects from the parachute because he was trained to pull at ten seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #32571 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. My understanding was that the speed fell below the recommended stall speed before it was realized, no problems. Was that MPH or KTS? 170 was a number that sounds familiar from that conversation. I'm not sure, could have been 160, but I'd be surprised. The co-pilot would know. Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Today, yes they do, but they do it in a staged opening, with more modern materials rated well beyond the forces they are subjected too.. Back in '71 they did not have the same materials and did not open at the same speeds. This is in regards to the Dragsters chutes only. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #32572 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteDrag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. OK. So it is obvious to you that parachutes have varying capacities for opening speeds. This is a wonderfully enlightening fact. So, if you were an experienced high altitude jump expert and familiar with emergency jet jumps, you think you could pick a parachute that would open successfully at the speeds Matt suggests?? I suggest that this is another mute point, since Duane survived the jump with only a stairway injury to the right leg. That injury had no causical effects from the parachute because he was trained to pull at ten seconds. I am not suggesting any thing, just using actual. observed, science and fact. The Co-pilot had to be hard of hearing if I understand your current theory for the "suggested" stall. But as he is also "TOG" (Your claim remember?), it confuses me. So, is he a less than competent pilot and a world renowned parachute rigger? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32573 June 1, 2012 BK writes: Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. R99 replies: The only thing I understand is that you are hazy because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have the slightest idea of what the term "stall speed" means. BK writes: I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. R99 replies: Was this "tendency to split" before of after ripstop materials started being used in canopies? Also, "steerable by pulling on the front chords"? Did you have the parachute on backwards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #32574 June 1, 2012 Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32575 June 1, 2012 Quote Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) It would be logical for the airlines to develop such procedures in order to get everyone working on the same page. About the only specific thing done by the FAA (and at least circulated more or less publicly in the general aviation community) was the designation of a hijacking transponder code. I don't know if it is still in use today or not, but at that time the hijacking code differed from the lost communications transponder code only in that the second number from the left was one digit smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 Next Page 1303 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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skyjack71 0 #32567 June 1, 2012 BK did NOT know Duane Weber and he relates only twisted tid bits on this thread. Anyone believing one word of his rants and raves - needs to come SEE me and review the research including the communications I had with BK. BK would state - there was NO Tommy Gunn then several months later Gunn is a key factor in his mind. That is just ONE example. BK did NOT know Duane Weber or D.B. Cooper. Perhaps BK knew McCoy and was the snitch who told the FBI where he was. Perhaps this is why BK is so driven about the Cooper case. BK is dealing with his own conscience - and his own guilt! Now that is a total new approach to BK and maybe a little bird just dropped this on me. You will NEVER know if you don't know Now! Each one of you need to examine WHY BK is involved in the Cooper story at all. Obviously he was NOT part of the Cooper Caper. Why is he driven to make McCoy part of the Cooper story? Guilt! ================= PS: The only way BK can handle his guilt is to keep McCoy alive......so much I want to say, but so little I can say! Do you guys think I invented this angle? Not Hardly! Secrets are not usually kept forever.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #32568 June 1, 2012 Hey Knoss, it was good to see you had taken a break from the forum for a while -- things settled down quite a bit in your absence. Folks starting talking about the case again. You were so disruptive before your break. Now you have returned -- possibly with a new attitude, a new approach. However, your posts are starting to get more frequent (and more bizarre) again, but what really irks me now is the picture that accompanies your posts. Now everytime you post, I have to look at your mug. It was bad enough reading you day in and day out, now I have to look at you. Talk about adding insult to injury...I don't know if I can take it. Can you send me a blowup of your post pic? I was thinking about putting a bullseye on it and sending it out to everyone on the forum to use for dart practice. Might even help alleviate frustration. What do you think. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32569 June 1, 2012 Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. Jo, you make too many erroneous assumptions about me, like Sluggo_Monster said. A regular Duracell Bunny. Go with the flow. I'm not trying to destroy the Weber story, everyone else is. It's a forest and the trees thingie. You shoot yourself in the foot daily. Give it up! Let's move onward and upward and discuss something Jo likes, PLEASE? I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. Meyer: "Now everytime you post, I have to look at your mug. Can you send me a blowup of your post pic? I was thinking about putting a bullseye on it and sending it out to everyone on the forum to use for dart practice. Might even help alleviate frustration. What do you think. MeyerLouie " Reply: I accommodated your complaint. See attached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #32570 June 1, 2012 QuoteDrag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. OK. So it is obvious to you that parachutes have varying capacities for opening speeds. This is a wonderfully enlightening fact. So, if you were an experienced high altitude jump expert and familiar with emergency jet jumps, you think you could pick a parachute that would open successfully at the speeds Matt suggests?? I suggest that this is another mute point, since Duane survived the jump with only a stairway injury to the right leg. That injury had no causical effects from the parachute because he was trained to pull at ten seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #32571 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. My understanding was that the speed fell below the recommended stall speed before it was realized, no problems. Was that MPH or KTS? 170 was a number that sounds familiar from that conversation. I'm not sure, could have been 160, but I'd be surprised. The co-pilot would know. Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Today, yes they do, but they do it in a staged opening, with more modern materials rated well beyond the forces they are subjected too.. Back in '71 they did not have the same materials and did not open at the same speeds. This is in regards to the Dragsters chutes only. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #32572 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteDrag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. OK. So it is obvious to you that parachutes have varying capacities for opening speeds. This is a wonderfully enlightening fact. So, if you were an experienced high altitude jump expert and familiar with emergency jet jumps, you think you could pick a parachute that would open successfully at the speeds Matt suggests?? I suggest that this is another mute point, since Duane survived the jump with only a stairway injury to the right leg. That injury had no causical effects from the parachute because he was trained to pull at ten seconds. I am not suggesting any thing, just using actual. observed, science and fact. The Co-pilot had to be hard of hearing if I understand your current theory for the "suggested" stall. But as he is also "TOG" (Your claim remember?), it confuses me. So, is he a less than competent pilot and a world renowned parachute rigger? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32573 June 1, 2012 BK writes: Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. R99 replies: The only thing I understand is that you are hazy because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have the slightest idea of what the term "stall speed" means. BK writes: I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. R99 replies: Was this "tendency to split" before of after ripstop materials started being used in canopies? Also, "steerable by pulling on the front chords"? Did you have the parachute on backwards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #32574 June 1, 2012 Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32575 June 1, 2012 Quote Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) It would be logical for the airlines to develop such procedures in order to get everyone working on the same page. About the only specific thing done by the FAA (and at least circulated more or less publicly in the general aviation community) was the designation of a hijacking transponder code. I don't know if it is still in use today or not, but at that time the hijacking code differed from the lost communications transponder code only in that the second number from the left was one digit smaller. 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matthewcline 0 #32571 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote The airliner was doing about 170 KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed) which is between 220 and 225 MPH (Miles Per Hour) True Airspeed for the conditions that existed at the time of the jump. Cooper would probably still be doing about 200 MPH in 10 seconds. I was thinking more of the time period in which the flight slowed down to try to get the guy in back to leave the plane. To the best of my knowledge, the only time the airliner slowed to below about 170 knots was just after takeoff in Seattle when they did so to help Cooper get the stairs down. My understanding was that the speed fell below the recommended stall speed before it was realized, no problems. Was that MPH or KTS? 170 was a number that sounds familiar from that conversation. I'm not sure, could have been 160, but I'd be surprised. The co-pilot would know. Drag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Today, yes they do, but they do it in a staged opening, with more modern materials rated well beyond the forces they are subjected too.. Back in '71 they did not have the same materials and did not open at the same speeds. This is in regards to the Dragsters chutes only. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #32572 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteDrag strip parachutes open as high as 325 MPH in every run with a ton more weight to stop. How would that relate?? Quote It wouldn't...apples & oranges. Different design, materials and reefing. OK. So it is obvious to you that parachutes have varying capacities for opening speeds. This is a wonderfully enlightening fact. So, if you were an experienced high altitude jump expert and familiar with emergency jet jumps, you think you could pick a parachute that would open successfully at the speeds Matt suggests?? I suggest that this is another mute point, since Duane survived the jump with only a stairway injury to the right leg. That injury had no causical effects from the parachute because he was trained to pull at ten seconds. I am not suggesting any thing, just using actual. observed, science and fact. The Co-pilot had to be hard of hearing if I understand your current theory for the "suggested" stall. But as he is also "TOG" (Your claim remember?), it confuses me. So, is he a less than competent pilot and a world renowned parachute rigger? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32573 June 1, 2012 BK writes: Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. R99 replies: The only thing I understand is that you are hazy because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have the slightest idea of what the term "stall speed" means. BK writes: I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. R99 replies: Was this "tendency to split" before of after ripstop materials started being used in canopies? Also, "steerable by pulling on the front chords"? Did you have the parachute on backwards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #32574 June 1, 2012 Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #32575 June 1, 2012 Quote Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) It would be logical for the airlines to develop such procedures in order to get everyone working on the same page. About the only specific thing done by the FAA (and at least circulated more or less publicly in the general aviation community) was the designation of a hijacking transponder code. I don't know if it is still in use today or not, but at that time the hijacking code differed from the lost communications transponder code only in that the second number from the left was one digit smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 Next Page 1303 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
Robert99 37 #32573 June 1, 2012 BK writes: Recommended stall....Yes, I knew that was faulty, but I figured you would figure out what I was trying to say. The manufacturer's stated speed at which the airplane can no longer sustain flight. As I understood the conversation, flight 305 had slowed beyond this stated number before the co-pilot realized it. I thought it may have been 160 knots, but I am hazy in the exact number. I'm sure you understood. R99 replies: The only thing I understand is that you are hazy because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have the slightest idea of what the term "stall speed" means. BK writes: I remember a discussion about parachute canopies, but not their numbers. The ones the trainer liked were of an older variety, and had less tendency to split. I very clearly remember that. It was not really steerable, but you could pull on the front chords to get some control. It was a military parachute, all one color, dirty white like natural nylon color. The trainer had a red and white canopie that he jumped with. But that just causes problems here. Forget the red and white chute. Not important. R99 replies: Was this "tendency to split" before of after ripstop materials started being used in canopies? Also, "steerable by pulling on the front chords"? Did you have the parachute on backwards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32574 June 1, 2012 Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #32575 June 1, 2012 Quote Quote If any of you have any reasonable, not-TOO-technical questions you would like me to ask 305 co-pilot Bill Rataczak, send them to me in a private message. You should do this by Saturday, June 2, 10AM, Seattle time. Uh, no...I won't be asking him if he was part of a grand conspiracy to improve airline safety. I'd rather he didn't hang up on me. AFTER that flight, I know many airlines penned a hijack procedure into their respective flight manuals...I'm curious if SW had anything like that in place prior, and if so was it of any use to the flight crew in that instance...or were they just 'winging' it? IF there was a procedure in place prior, did it change any following the hijacking? (I know procedures changed significantly following 9-11, curious if that was also the case in '71) It would be logical for the airlines to develop such procedures in order to get everyone working on the same page. About the only specific thing done by the FAA (and at least circulated more or less publicly in the general aviation community) was the designation of a hijacking transponder code. I don't know if it is still in use today or not, but at that time the hijacking code differed from the lost communications transponder code only in that the second number from the left was one digit smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
