DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 146]

One way Max Gunther’s book has been criticized is that Gunther got a couple of things wrong. One of the main ones is that Clara claimed the Captain came back to talk to Cooper. We know this did not happen, but we do know that Cooper did talk to the cockpit. Clara was clearly a female and talked to Gunther for the first time in 1982, and was relaying the story secondhand. It is not a big leap to think she got a few things wrong, some maybe on purpose, and certainly made up enough to throw people off about her true identity, but keeping enough to keep the story real. 
 

I have four possible hypotheses on who Clara and Dan were. 1. Max made it up. 2. It was Dan Clair and his wife. 3. It was William Smith and his wife. 4. It was Dan and William together. 
 

This little blurb about Detroit, Michigan could possibly be connected to a woman named Valeria who was buried with William and his wife. A non relative buried in the family plot would indicate a close connection. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

A contemporary analysis of Max Gunther’s D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened by author Jude Morrow. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 654]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:29 AM, Nicholas Broughton said:

Merry Christmas to all my cooperites!

 

 

This biggest influence on the public believing McCoy was Cooper was the Calame and Rhodes book "The Real McCoy"..

One of the foundations of their argument was the tie clasp, they claimed a picture was shown to a relative and it was identified as belonging to McCoy.. sounds convincing right.. but there are two problems. First, Calame and Rhodes misrepresented what actually happened, in the the FBI files the relative stated it looked "similar"... it wasn't a positive identification. Further, the tie had a very well used center "tie pin" hole,, so the tie had a "tie pin" for most or all its existence up to the hijacking. That alligator clip was likely added for the hijacking or shortly before.

 

but Ryan gets the context wrong for informing the passengers of the hijacking.

For Cooper the crew took it upon themselves to ask Cooper if he wanted the passengers informed, they instigated the issue, it was not a demand by Cooper. Whereas on other hijackings the crew just announced a hijacking.

So, the variation lies with the crew's response not Cooper. If the crew hadn't asked Cooper they could have easily just announced a hijacking to the passengers.

Claiming Cooper's MO was different is false. It was the crew's response that was different.

Edited December 27, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

14 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

A contemporary analysis of Max Gunther’s D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened by author Jude Morrow. 

Jude missed the mark completely... 

Critics take the Clara story too literally. Look beyond her story and explore motives. What is she trying to accomplish... 

Clara's apparent motivation was to convince the public via Gunther and then FBI that Cooper had died,,, and he was really a nice guy. IMO, she wanted sympathy and to give cover. It wasn't to give an accurate and detailed account. That was her motivation and that isn't normally something a hoaxer would do. The Clara story as told by her is not to be taken as true, it has only enough facts to gain credibility whether she was associated to Cooper or not.

Gunther told Clara's story as told to him and not presenting it as fact.

If she was legitimately connected to the real Cooper 95% of her story could be false, half truths or misinformation.

IMO, Gunther was contacted by either Cooper or a hoaxer in '72 and later an associate "Clara" who told a mostly fabricated story for the purpose of declaring Cooper dead. He wasn't. 

Gunther said it was her story and not to be taken as fact. He didn't know her identity and said it may not be true so no need for an NDA. The NDA is a red herring.

Those Gunther notes look like a typed up version of hand written notes,, 

 

Options..

1 Cooper contact in "72 was a hoaxer and Clara was made up by Gunther to fill out a story. Huge risk for Gunther publishing and contacting the FBI. Very unlikely.

2 Cooper contact in '72 was a hoaxer and Clara was an associate hoaxer.. then why contact 10 years later and she did get some things right. Hard to figure a motive.

3 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was a hoaxer. Seems unlikely, why do that and she had inside info. Unlikely.

4 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate (may or may not be a girlfriend). Why? To claim Cooper had died when he hadn't and paint him as really a good guy.. Clara may have been given a script.

 

IMO, it is 2 or 4.

[Andrade1812 51]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This biggest influence on the public believing McCoy was Cooper was the Calame and Rhodes book "The Real McCoy"..

One of the foundations of their argument was the tie clasp, they claimed a picture was shown to a relative and it was identified as belonging to McCoy.. 

Was it the biggest influence tho? There are only a few copies of this book available. No way the book created much of an impact on the public when only a few hundred people read the thing. 

[CooperNWO305 146]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Jude missed the mark completely... 

Critics take the Clara story too literally. Look beyond her story and explore motives. What is she trying to accomplish... 

Clara's apparent motivation was to convince the public via Gunther and then FBI that Cooper had died,,, and he was really a nice guy. IMO, she wanted sympathy and to give cover. It wasn't to give an accurate and detailed account. That was her motivation and that isn't normally something a hoaxer would do. The Clara story as told by her is not to be taken as true, it has only enough facts to gain credibility whether she was associated to Cooper or not.

Gunther told Clara's story as told to him and not presenting it as fact.

If she was legitimately connected to the real Cooper 95% of her story could be false, half truths or misinformation.

IMO, Gunther was contacted by either Cooper or a hoaxer in '72 and later an associate "Clara" who told a mostly fabricated story for the purpose of declaring Cooper dead. He wasn't. 

Gunther said it was her story and not to be taken as fact. He didn't know her identity and said it may not be true so no need for an NDA. The NDA is a red herring.

Those Gunther notes look like a typed up version of hand written notes,, 

 

Options..

1 Cooper contact in "72 was a hoaxer and Clara was made up by Gunther to fill out a story. Huge risk for Gunther publishing and contacting the FBI. Very unlikely.

2 Cooper contact in '72 was a hoaxer and Clara was an associate hoaxer.. then why contact 10 years later and she did get some things right. Hard to figure a motive.

3 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was a hoaxer. Seems unlikely, why do that and she had inside info. Unlikely.

4 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate (may or may not be a girlfriend). Why? To claim Cooper had died when he hadn't and paint him as really a good guy.. Clara may have been given a script.

 

IMO, it is 2 or 4.

A 55 minute video is a bit of a non starter for me, unless it’s an exciting subject. I watched a total of about 30 seconds and fast forwarded to the part where I saw Truman Capote’s book next to Gunther’s. I don’t see the resemblance in the books. The art is different, the fonts, the colors, the writing, the plot, etc. OP has a history of making fantastic statements. I get a kick out of a modern day “author” who is mainly self published on Amazon critiquing a man who was a novelist and author in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when there were actually barriers to entry to being published. Today you can literally fire up MS Word, and upload a copy of a “book” and Amazon will print and distribute it. I can’t see comparing books on psych issues to those written by a novelist who was also an editor and contributor to many magazines. Not to downplay any disability, but this is not justification to bash Gunther by comparing genres. He might be better suited to what he knows best. 
 

What I really get a kick out of are the discussions on other sites about Gunther’s credibility. This coming from people whose academic and intellectual credentials don’t really warrant their criticism of man who went to Princeton and wrote maybe 10 books and was routinely published in legit magazines, not just True and Playboy. 
 

One post I read was questioning whether Clara contacted anyone else. Gunther made it clear that Mark Penzer and Ed Kuhn were contacted. Why would Gunther lie about that in his book? It’s not like they were beer drinking buddies in Connecticut. No good author is going to let someone use their name like that. 
 

And of course Clara is going to get things wrong. She got it second hand. Also, why tell the whole story and get caught?
 

I give it about a 1% chance that Gunther made this up. And that’s more that he made up parts and not the whole thing. 

When people just post in an echo chamber, they are never checked on their theories. That’s why they don’t post on DZ, because here you actually might get pushback from people who have been on the case a long time like Fly, R99, Martin, or Georger. 
 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

55 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Was it the biggest influence tho? There are only a few copies of this book available. No way the book created much of an impact on the public when only a few hundred people read the thing. 

Sure it was.. when it came out Calame and Rhodes did the media.. It wasn't just readers of the books and I don't know the exact number of books sold but I doubt it was only a few. I knew all about the Calame and Rhodes argument before I got the book. Their cred pushing the McCoy narrative influenced the public and made McCoy the #1 Cooper suspect...  Nothing had the impact that they did to plant the myth. People who make McCoy arguments use their arguments, most were false or embellished.

When people look into the Cooper case they find the Calame and Rhodes McCoy stuff..

Even Dan Gryder used the book as his foundation for research...

Edited December 27, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Cola 26]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:29 PM, Nicholas Broughton said:

Merry Christmas to all my cooperites!

 

 

 

 

WOW…..thank you for posting NB.

Olemisscub this is amazingly well done!!! The way your narration overlays the visual media is just incredible. Great writing!

Thank you for putting a definitive death nail in McCoy as Cooper once and for all.

A few of us have such a thirst for this type of content. Can't wait to see what you do next.

[Jay Ritchie 3]

3 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

Was it the biggest influence tho? There are only a few copies of this book available. No way the book created much of an impact on the public when only a few hundred people read the thing. 

I'd presumed that the book was reasonably well known? There seem to be plenty of copies at impressively high prices floating around.

I recall a story that the original publication was subject to legal action and the books pulped. Was there any truth in this?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Jay Ritchie
typo

[FLYJACK 654]

Somebody on Reddit asked about the theory that the TBAR money wasn't from Cooper...

That was my research and theory and it is a bit complex but theoretically possible that the TBAR money was NOT from Cooper at all. I can hear some eyeball roll already.

I am not claiming this is fact or I think this happened, I don't know what exactly happened but it is theoretically possible.

Fact.. We know that the money found on TBAR matched the FBI list.

Fact.. The list was short 2 bills.

The issue is the creation of the FBI list and its accuracy, it was a keystone cops type of process. Most people, even seasoned Cooper researchers don't understand how that FBI serial number list was created and the room for error.

This is a bit complicated but the FBI list might not be accurate.

The money was pre-recorded by the bank and in a special stash of $250,000 with $230,000 being in $20's and $20,000 in tens..

The bank pulled 100 packets ($200,000) in bundles and sent them to Cooper.

So, 15 packets ($30,000) were left behind from the stash 

The Bank sent the Recordak Micro of all $250,000 to the FBI...

They wrote down the top and bottom bill of the 15 packets remaining at the bank and said to deduct those plus the 98 bills in between from the list. They ignored the $20,000 in tens.

Got it so far..

The FBI had to deduct 1500 bills from the micro based on only 15 pairs of serial numbers to get an accurate list.

The bank immediately incorporated the 15 packets back into a new bank emergency ransom stash.

The FBI was having trouble figuring out the serial numbers to deduct from the original micro so they asked the bank for help. The bank sent them the Recordak of the new bank stash with the 15 bundles left behind in there. The bank gave the FBI the range for the 15 sets of bills in the micro....  but there was an error, one of the bills was incorrect. 

So, the FBI should have compared the entire list for the first micro vs the second micro and deducted any bills that appeared on the second micro,, the process of creating the FBI serial number list was done by deduction.. They were given a total list that included 1500 bills that Cooper did not take.

So, did they get this correct,, were bills manipulated after the original micro before they went to cooper.. I don't know, we can't check without the original micro..

We know the FBI list is missing 2 bills, that indicates an error of some sort. 

But here it gets interesting.. if they mixed bill numbers and were not deducted properly and the ones left at the bank were on the FBI list then some of the bills would not have gone to Cooper..

Those 1500 bills added to the new extortion/ransom stash may have been used for another event.

Another second way the FBI list may not be accurate is if the bank stash was not kept accurate after the initial Recordak. The bills were recorded some time previous and the micro was presumed accurate at the time of the hijacking.. The bills were not recorded right before the hijacking. If some bills were used and replaced but the micro was not redone. This is unlikely as banks are very accurate but it is possible.

The problem is the FBI serial number list, we have no way to confirm that they got it right since it was created by deduction and not positive identification.

 

The point is everyone assumes the TBAR money was money given to Cooper is a 100% fact but it is possible based on the convoluted process to create the FBI list that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper... 

I think it probably is money given to Cooper but it is something less than 100%... and we can't check,, the fact that 2 bills are missing from the list indicates an error somewhere.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Somebody on Reddit asked about the theory that the TBAR money wasn't from Cooper...

That was my research and theory and it is a bit complex but theoretically possible that the TBAR money was NOT from Cooper at all. I can hear some eyeball roll already.

I am not claiming this is fact or I think this happened, I don't know what exactly happened but it is theoretically possible.

Fact.. We know that the money found on TBAR matched the FBI list.

Fact.. The list was short 2 bills.

The issue is the creation of the FBI list and its accuracy, it was a keystone cops type of process. Most people, even seasoned Cooper researchers don't understand how that FBI serial number list was created and the room for error.

This is a bit complicated but the FBI list might not be accurate.

The money was pre-recorded by the bank and in a special stash of $250,000 with $230,000 being in $20's and $20,000 in tens..

The bank pulled 100 packets ($200,000) in bundles and sent them to Cooper.

So, 15 packets ($30,000) were left behind from the stash 

The Bank sent the Recordak Micro of all $250,000 to the FBI...

They wrote down the top and bottom bill of the 15 packets remaining at the bank and said to deduct those plus the 98 bills in between from the list. They ignored the $20,000 in tens.

Got it so far..

The FBI had to deduct 1500 bills from the micro based on only 15 pairs of serial numbers to get an accurate list.

The bank immediately incorporated the 15 packets back into a new bank emergency ransom stash.

The FBI was having trouble figuring out the serial numbers to deduct from the original micro so they asked the bank for help. The bank sent them the Recordak of the new bank stash with the 15 bundles left behind in there. The bank gave the FBI the range for the 15 sets of bills in the micro....  but there was an error, one of the bills was incorrect. 

So, the FBI should have compared the entire list for the first micro vs the second micro and deducted any bills that appeared on the second micro,, the process of creating the FBI serial number list was done by deduction.. They were given a total list that included 1500 bills that Cooper did not take.

So, did they get this correct,, were bills manipulated after the original micro before they went to cooper.. I don't know, we can't check without the original micro..

We know the FBI list is missing 2 bills, that indicates an error of some sort. 

But here it gets interesting.. if they mixed bill numbers and were not deducted properly and the ones left at the bank were on the FBI list then some of the bills would not have gone to Cooper..

Those 1500 bills added to the new extortion/ransom stash may have been used for another event.

Another second way the FBI list may not be accurate is if the bank stash was not kept accurate after the initial Recordak. The bills were recorded some time previous and the micro was presumed accurate at the time of the hijacking.. The bills were not recorded right before the hijacking. If some bills were used and replaced but the micro was not redone. This is unlikely as banks are very accurate but it is possible.

The problem is the FBI serial number list, we have no way to confirm that they got it right since it was created by deduction and not positive identification.

 

The point is everyone assumes the TBAR money was money given to Cooper is a 100% fact but it is possible based on the convoluted process to create the FBI list that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper... 

I think it probably is money given to Cooper but it is something less than 100%... and we can't check,, the fact that 2 bills are missing from the list indicates an error somewhere.

 

 

The point is everyone assumes the TBAR money was money given to Cooper is a 100% fact but it is possible based on the convoluted process to create the FBI list that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper... 

I think it probably is money given to Cooper but it is something less than 100%... and we can't check,, the fact that 2 bills are missing from the list indicates an error somewhere.

Really! ? 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

Convo on FB on the air stairs and that it indicates Cooper was from Boeing or had some Top Secret info.  I had a chat with Eric on it. We disagree for the most part. To me the transcripts create a contradiction with testimony. Three times it is mentioned that he wanted the stairs lowered in flight. What I wonder is if Cooper wanted the door open (plane was not pressurized), stairs open, but not locked. That’s what I lean towards. Having bomb bay or air doors open in flight is not uncommon. The skydivers have seen it, I’ve had it skydiving and in helicopters, but of course not a 727.

Fly had shown some good info a while back on 727 flight testing, R99 too showed a magazine, I had found a few things in Jane’s and other resources. Chris B posted some good info too. The super secret operation of the aft stairs is one of those “primacy” effects and to me not very logical.  It sounds fun to say Cooper was CIA in Nam, but is it realistic?

Edited December 28, 2023 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 654]

5 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Convo on FB on the air stairs and that it indicates Cooper was from Boeing or had some Top Secret info.  I had a chat with Eric on it. We disagree for the most part. To me the transcripts create a contradiction with testimony. Three times it is mentioned that he wanted the stairs lowered in flight. What I wonder is if Cooper wanted the door open (plane was not pressurized), stairs open, but not locked. That’s what I lean towards. Having bomb bay or air doors open in flight is not uncommon. The skydivers have seen it, I’ve had it skydiving and in helicopters, but of course not a 727.

Fly had shown some good info a while back on 727 flight testing, R99 too showed a magazine, I had found a few things in Jane’s and other resources. Chris B posted some good info too. The super secret operation of the aft stairs is one of those “primacy” effects and to me not very logical.  It sounds fun to say Cooper was CIA in Nam, but is it realistic?

Not top secret info,,

The stairs could be lowered inflight.. that could have been picked up in the media, from personal experience, job experience or second hand info.

He could have heard or read about the Vietnam or US tests but never been involved..  

He had to be very confident that the stairs could be lowered inflight but the number of people that had that knowledge is hard to quantify or source. It suggests Cooper had aviation experience or interest..

Another one of those Vortex things that has no answer..

 

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:21 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

One way Max Gunther’s book has been criticized is that Gunther got a couple of things wrong. One of the main ones is that Clara claimed the Captain came back to talk to Cooper. We know this did not happen, but we do know that Cooper did talk to the cockpit. Clara was clearly a female and talked to Gunther for the first time in 1982, and was relaying the story secondhand. It is not a big leap to think she got a few things wrong, some maybe on purpose, and certainly made up enough to throw people off about her true identity, but keeping enough to keep the story real. 
 

I have four possible hypotheses on who Clara and Dan were. 1. Max made it up. 2. It was Dan Clair and his wife. 3. It was William Smith and his wife. 4. It was Dan and William together. 
 

This little blurb about Detroit, Michigan could possibly be connected to a woman named Valeria who was buried with William and his wife. A non relative buried in the family plot would indicate a close connection. 

 

No connection to the Gunther book whatsoever. Valeria came over on the boat from Poland with WJS’s mother in law, who was 6 at the time. And Valeria was not from Detroit.  She went to NJ and settled in the Polish section of Bloomfield, along with all the other Polish immigrants that came over around the same time.    We are "family"... That is how they were raised.  

[CooperNWO305 146]

3 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

On 12/26/2023 at 2:21 PM, CooperNWO305 said:

One way Max Gunther’s book has been criticized is that Gunther got a couple of things wrong. One of the main ones is that Clara claimed the Captain came back to talk to Cooper. We know this did not happen, but we do know that Cooper did talk to the cockpit. Clara was clearly a female and talked to Gunther for the first time in 1982, and was relaying the story secondhand. It is not a big leap to think she got a few things wrong, some maybe on purpose, and certainly made up enough to throw people off about her true identity, but keeping enough to keep the story real. 
 

I have four possible hypotheses on who Clara and Dan were. 1. Max made it up. 2. It was Dan Clair and his wife. 3. It was William Smith and his wife. 4. It was Dan and William together. 
 

This little blurb about Detroit, Michigan could possibly be connected to a woman named Valeria who was buried with William and his wife. A non relative buried in the family plot would indicate a close connection. 

 

No connection to the Gunther book whatsoever. Valeria came over on the boat from Poland with WJS’s mother in law, who was 6 at the time. And Valeria was not from Detroit.  She went to NJ and settled in the Polish section of Bloomfield, along with all the other Polish immigrants that came over around the same time.    We are "family"... That is how they were raised.  

The book says Detroit, which may not be the exact city. That’s not unusual. So you’re saying she had no connection to Michigan? Not born there? What is your source? Does your source read the DZ or are they getting things second hand from you? So I’m just seeing things that aren’t there, like all the other “coincidences” from the book?
 

If she was family, did she spend Thanksgiving 1971 with them?

[ParrotheadVol 70]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:14 AM, FLYJACK said:

Options..

1 Cooper contact in "72 was a hoaxer and Clara was made up by Gunther to fill out a story. Huge risk for Gunther publishing and contacting the FBI. Very unlikely.

2 Cooper contact in '72 was a hoaxer and Clara was an associate hoaxer.. then why contact 10 years later and she did get some things right. Hard to figure a motive.

3 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was a hoaxer. Seems unlikely, why do that and she had inside info. Unlikely.

4 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate (may or may not be a girlfriend). Why? To claim Cooper had died when he hadn't and paint him as really a good guy.. Clara may have been given a script.

 

IMO, it is 2 or 4.

I've always avoided reading Gunther's book, but finally caved and picked up a copy on eBay recently. I enjoyed it, as I enjoy most things Cooper. My guess is that the real Cooper wasn't going to talk to anyone, period. Of the options you post, I'd go with #2. 

I shouldn't have to ask this because I just read the book, but did the (assumed) hoaxer claiming to be Cooper communicate with Gunther any way besides mail? Did Gunther actually claim to have verbally spoke to him?

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I've always avoided reading Gunther's book, but finally caved and picked up a copy on eBay recently. I enjoyed it, as I enjoy most things Cooper. My guess is that the real Cooper wasn't going to talk to anyone, period. Of the options you post, I'd go with #2. 

I shouldn't have to ask this because I just read the book, but did the (assumed) hoaxer claiming to be Cooper communicate with Gunther any way besides mail? Did Gunther actually claim to have verbally spoke to him?

Yes, he talked on the phone.. in detail.

The only reason I can think of for a real Cooper to contact Gunther for money is if he lost the ransom in the jump..

The Gunther thing is a tough nut to crack, he lays it out that it may be a hoax and is telling a narrative told to him... It is extremely unlikely Gunther is the hoaxer, he would be putting himself in reputational and legal jeopardy. Clara's narrative is unverifiable. It could be partially or entirely made up. 

IMO, people too easily dismiss Gunther, there is a legit possibility that he was contacted by the real Cooper.. if so that is a big deal.. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by FLYJACK

[ParrotheadVol 70]

25 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, he talked on the phone.. in detail.

The only reason I can think of for a real Cooper to contact Gunther for money is if he lost the ransom in the jump..

The Gunther thing is a tough nut to crack, he lays it out that it may be a hoax and is telling a narrative told to him... It is extremely unlikely Gunther is the hoaxer, he would be putting himself in reputational and legal jeopardy. Clara's narrative is unverifiable. It could be partially or entirely made up. 

IMO, people too easily dismiss Gunther, there is a legit possibility that he was contacted by the real Cooper.. if so that is a big deal.. 

My thought is that Gunther was actually contacted. I doubt he himself is the hoaxer.

I'm skeptical that he was actually contacted by Cooper though. I wish he were though. The best hope for us having the most complete picture of what happened after Cooper's jump, would be for Gunther's book to be at least a somewhat true account. I just don't think that is the case though.

[FLYJACK 654]

32 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

My thought is that Gunther was actually contacted. I doubt he himself is the hoaxer.

I'm skeptical that he was actually contacted by Cooper though. I wish he were though. The best hope for us having the most complete picture of what happened after Cooper's jump, would be for Gunther's book to be at least a somewhat true account. I just don't think that is the case though.

 

How do you/we know that he was contacted by a hoaxer and not the real Cooper?

We can't know...  I do have more evidence that pushes the needle toward it being the real Cooper. We can't dismiss the possibility.

If Cooper did lose the ransom money, this would be an opportunity to cash in..

Why would an associate hoaxer "Clara" contact Gunther ten years later and contact Himmelsbach to claim Cooper had died and he was really a good guy... I just can't make sense of that.

Anybody have a reasonable explanation.

Edited December 29, 2023 by FLYJACK

[ParrotheadVol 70]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

How do you/we know that he was contacted by a hoaxer and not the real Cooper?

I don't.

I am, by nature, a skeptic and pessimist. I doubt it was the real Cooper but that is based solely on speculation and nothing more. There were parts of the book that made me wonder if it were real, and other parts that reaffirmed my doubts. At the end of the day, it's just another of the many mysteries within the mystery.

[DanCooperHimself 9]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:05 PM, CooperNWO305 said:

A 55 minute video is a bit of a non starter for me, unless it’s an exciting subject. I watched a total of about 30 seconds and fast forwarded to the part where I saw Truman Capote’s book next to Gunther’s. I don’t see the resemblance in the books. The art is different, the fonts, the colors, the writing, the plot, etc. OP has a history of making fantastic statements. I get a kick out of a modern day “author” who is mainly self published on Amazon critiquing a man who was a novelist and author in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when there were actually barriers to entry to being published. Today you can literally fire up MS Word, and upload a copy of a “book” and Amazon will print and distribute it. I can’t see comparing books on psych issues to those written by a novelist who was also an editor and contributor to many magazines. Not to downplay any disability, but this is not justification to bash Gunther by comparing genres. He might be better suited to what he knows best. 
 

What I really get a kick out of are the discussions on other sites about Gunther’s credibility. This coming from people whose academic and intellectual credentials don’t really warrant their criticism of man who went to Princeton and wrote maybe 10 books and was routinely published in legit magazines, not just True and Playboy. 
 

One post I read was questioning whether Clara contacted anyone else. Gunther made it clear that Mark Penzer and Ed Kuhn were contacted. Why would Gunther lie about that in his book? It’s not like they were beer drinking buddies in Connecticut. No good author is going to let someone use their name like that. 
 

And of course Clara is going to get things wrong. She got it second hand. Also, why tell the whole story and get caught?
 

I give it about a 1% chance that Gunther made this up. And that’s more that he made up parts and not the whole thing. 

When people just post in an echo chamber, they are never checked on their theories. That’s why they don’t post on DZ, because here you actually might get pushback from people who have been on the case a long time like Fly, R99, Martin, or Georger. 
 

 

I think you should listen to it and actually listen to what I said in it. You can’t give a critique as scathing as this without watching it. I’m cool with Flyjack’s comments because he listened to it.

To start - I’m not a mainly self-published “author” as you put it. I’ve had two books published by Beyond Words - the publisher of The Secret - a very elite and prestigious publisher based in Hillsboro Oregon.

I’ve had two non-fiction works published by them - one of which there are talks of converting into a series, and I’ve been on both sides of the non fiction and fiction fences.

I'm effusive in my praise for Max Gunther on how well the work is done, how good it was and never once did I disparage him or anyone else. 

Nor did I say “Gunther made it all up”. 

To be honest - this video is probably the highest praise Gunther has ever been given publicly. You watched 30 seconds of it and then decided what you thought I said. 

My books and works have been featured in Forbes magazine and I’ve given two TED Talks and was the recipient of the Living Now Memoir Gold Medal in 2021.

Not sucking my own “you know what here”, but in terms of authors I’ve achieved a lot in 4 books. 

As for the “I’m not disparaging disabilities” comment - that’s extremely below the belt and I expected much better from you than that. 

[DanCooperHimself 9]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

How do you/we know that he was contacted by a hoaxer and not the real Cooper?

We can't know...  I do have more evidence that pushes the needle toward it being the real Cooper. We can't dismiss the possibility.

If Cooper did lose the ransom money, this would be an opportunity to cash in..

Why would an associate hoaxer "Clara" contact Gunther ten years later and contact Himmelsbach to claim Cooper had died and he was really a good guy... I just can't make sense of that.

Anybody have a reasonable explanation.

I said in my video - he could have been contacted by hoaxers and it gave inspiration for a great novel. Sadly, the book didn’t get many favourable reviews but I really appreciated it. Gunther and the publisher distanced themselves from the work considerably. 
 

What’s getting me most is “why would Gunther make all this up it’s too elaborate”. Tolkien made up an entire language for LOTR! Elvish. People have created entire star systems, countries, political movements, Hogwarts and all that. People have done way more inventive stuff than Gunther. All I had to do was put in a preface to my book. I interviewed an anonymous guy back in 2009 and an FBI agent. This is their stories. 

 

Maybe Gunther was fooled, maybe Cooper did call him - I’m sure we all want to believe that. One thing is for sure - Gunther wrote an under appreciated novel. His previous works are his own takes on books like “How to Win Friends and Influence People” and “Think and Grow Rich”.

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, DanCooperHimself said:

I said in my video - he could have been contacted by hoaxers and it gave inspiration for a great novel. Sadly, the book didn’t get many favourable reviews but I really appreciated it. Gunther and the publisher distanced themselves from the work considerably. 
 

What’s getting me most is “why would Gunther make all this up it’s too elaborate”. Tolkien made up an entire language for LOTR! Elvish. People have created entire star systems, countries, political movements, Hogwarts and all that. People have done way more inventive stuff than Gunther. All I had to do was put in a preface to my book. I interviewed an anonymous guy back in 2009 and an FBI agent. This is their stories. 

 

Maybe Gunther was fooled, maybe Cooper did call him - I’m sure we all want to believe that. One thing is for sure - Gunther wrote an under appreciated novel. His previous works are his own takes on books like “How to Win Friends and Influence People” and “Think and Grow Rich”.

 

You missed the premise of the book, Gunther was not fooled.. he admitted that he did not know if Cooper and Clara were legit and was not representing the contact as the real Cooper..  He was telling his experience and left it up to the reader. 

It is very unlikely Gunther perpetrated the hoax or made it all up,, his reputational risk and legal exposure going to the FBI was too high. He was already successful and didn't need the risk.. He likely filled in some things with research and case info from Himmelsbach. 

 

Essentially we have two primary possibilities..

Both the initial Cooper contact was a hoaxer and Clara was a hoaxer..

or

It was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate.. (not necessarily a girlfriend)

The accuracy of Clara's narrative isn't the test, if she was a hoaxer she made it all up but that seems extreme or hoaxer to do, if she was legit she could have made up most of it.

The question is motive,, what were they trying to accomplish..

The first contact was for money.. hoaxer or the real Cooper.. works either way if Cooper lost the money in the hijacking.

But what is the motive for Clara, a hoaxer somehow associated with the initial Cooper hoaxer. Why contact Gunther and Himmelsbach 10 years later?? Very risky for a hoaxer and why, it just doesn't really make sense.

But, if it was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate then a motive for Clara would be to establish the narrative that Cooper had died and that he was a good guy...  though he probably hadn't died. This was not long after the TBAR money find, the Cooper movie and renewed interest in the case..

IMO, Clara's role was to establish the false narrative that Cooper was dead.

 

Can anybody reasonably explain why Clara if a hoaxer would contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later with a very detailed narrative...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I don't.

I am, by nature, a skeptic and pessimist. I doubt it was the real Cooper but that is based solely on speculation and nothing more. There were parts of the book that made me wonder if it were real, and other parts that reaffirmed my doubts. At the end of the day, it's just another of the many mysteries within the mystery.

Am a skeptic by nature as well..

That is why I asked... why would hoaxer Clara contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later.. it doesn't make sense.

 

[ParrotheadVol 70]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Am a skeptic by nature as well..

That is why I asked... why would hoaxer Clara contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later.. it doesn't make sense.

 

You are correct, it does not make sense, at least to me. But, I am not a hoaxer.