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10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

KC wasn't 'investigated' in 2004.

WRONG, read the file. KC was investigated in 2004

I pointing this out to you several times, you have ignored it and keep making false claims. What is wrong with you, if somebody said there was info on Hahneman I'd be all over it. Why are you ignoring it?

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-52-of-52/view

 

You keep using assumptions and making claims that aren't true..

I have already said I have him travelling into Seattle on Northwest Airlines.. 

I have already said they investigated him.

There is nothing from the FBI or my research that eliminates him.

 

I get that you and many people know little about Hahneman, but you keep repeating falsehoods that I have already addressed.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I have read the approximately four pages of that file dedicated to KC. All it says is basically: 

1) Lyle Christiansen was writing letters to the FBI (like hundreds of other people over the years claiming that someone they knew was Cooper).

2) These letters were mostly ignored. 

3) Lyle claimed later that he had been interviewed by FBI agents at a park in Morris, MN. This turns out to be TRUE. 

4) The person in Tacoma who was a 'friend of Kenny and should be interviewed' is Robin Powell, who was never interviewed. I actually know where this guy lives today. And I have spoken to his ex-wife Carolyn, who is now remarried and living in Nevada. She said neither she or Robin knew if KC was Cooper, but that the story of money being found buried behind Kenny's house was true. Neither knew who actually found it, although they thought it was a kid, or a group of kids. This turns out to be true and was discovered after Kyle DeDominces came forward years later. There is some mention of Kenneth McWilliams, he is the guy with the wife and kids. Mac was later interviewed by Geoff Gray for his book, but the FBI didn't interview Mac either.

5) The FBI eventually got hold of Kenny's DD214 from his Army record, but like us, were unable to get anything else except that and his enlistment record, due to the massive fire at the St Louis Records center in 1973. 

6) The FBI makes mention of trying to pull Kenny's employment file from 1971 November to see if he was working at the time of the hijacking. They could not get that. I know this because we tried the same thing and NWA said they were purging employees' files after that employee no longer worked for them, about every five years. By 2004, it had been ten years since Kenny worked for them. By 2008, NWA had gone out of business and merged into Delta. 

7) There are some references to Lyle's letters as being 'crazy letters'. It's obvious they didn't take him too seriously. Later, Lyle came up with handwritten letters from Kenny showing Kenny's unhappiness with the airline, but until we submitted our report to the FBI in 2015 or so, no one at the FBI ever saw the content of those letters. 

It wasn't much of an 'investigation' at all. About the only active thing they did was interview Lyle in Morris, MN. Two years after these 2004 'investigations' that went nowhere, Lyle finally contacted Skipp Porteous, the New York private investigator. 

After that, the REAL investigation on Kenny began, starting with the 2007 October article by Gray, which mentions Skipp Porteous. In late 2008, I saw this article and volunteered to Skipp that since he was in New York, and I already lived 15 minutes from Bonney Lake, that I could assist him in any investigation into KC. 

Over the next 16 months or so, Skipp and I did what the FBI and Lyle could or would NOT do. We found the people who knew Kenny best...who neither Lyle or the FBI even knew existed. And I interviewed them, took pictures, and discovered evidence pointing to KC as possibly being Cooper. In other words, even though the FBI dismissed KC initially, and officially in 2008 (statement by Larry Carr) we actually DID do a comprehensive investigation. What we discovered was eventually submitted to the FBI, who closed the case about a year after they received it. I cannot tell you if that was the reason for dismissal, but we've sometimes wondered about it...especially after the statements made by senior FBI agent John Jarvis in August 2016. Jarvis indicated to three confirmed witnesses...all with security clearances with the US government...that the reason for closure on Cooper was that the FBI knew KC was their guy, and that he was dead. It is hard to get around this, or dismiss it outright, because Troy Bentz was so worried we wouldn't believe his story that he gave every detail you could imagine to us regarding these statements by Agent Jarvis. The names of all the witnesses, what everyone was doing at the time, an exact description on how the whole thing 'went down,' and even the places where the other witnesses' worked, and their phone numbers and addresses. AB verified all this information thoroughly. Bentz agreed to a verification of this incident, but asked we keep his name out of it for a year. We agreed to that, and only went public with his name as the whistleblower a year later. 

THAT's an investigation. The FBI did a park meeting with Lyle, and that's as far as they went with it. And Lyle didn't even know any of the people we later interviewed for our investigation, i.e. Bernie and Margie Geestman, Helen Jones, and many other people. If the FBI had known about these people, they might have taken Lyle a bit more seriously. But just coming forward and saying your brother looks like the hijacker and used to be an Army paratrooper wasn't enough for them. Also, Kenny had virtually no criminal record and no fingerprints on file to go on...so the FBI had basically nothing to work with back in 2004. It isn't a surprise they only did a casual check on him. 

After all the dust settled, two things happened. First, the cast of Decoded, after they were provided a copy of our report for the FBI, changed their minds on whether Bernie Geestman was involved. Both Buddy Levy and Scott Rolle emailed me and said they now thought he was. Christine McKinley still wasn't sure on Geestman, but said it confirmed her suspicions on Kenny. Second, Kenny's family, who also saw that same report, agreed that Kenny could be the hijacker. 

In the end, I cannot tell you for certain whether KC was Cooper or if he wasn't. But like Buddy Levy said once: "He's either Cooper, or it's the biggest set of coincidences in history..." (paraphrased)

As far as Hahneman, if you can't get the criminal files by the FBI on him, you might be able to get the court transcripts from his trial for the hijacking he DID do. You may find your answers in there. Without a doubt, when Hahneman was still in flight with all that money and on the way to Honduras...the FBI must have wondered if he was Cooper and striking again. It would have been their first thought. You need to find out why he's not even mentioned in the Cooper files, and why the FBI never linked him to the Cooper case, even though they had his 12 years in prison to do so. This issue may have been addressed in his trial transcripts. Your answer could be right in there. Matrix or not, profile or not...the most likely answer is that the FBI showed his pictures to the witnesses and the witnesses said no. Or...the FBI was able to establish Hahneman's whereabouts on 11/24/1971...and it wasn't the Great Northwest. Probably both. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Since I see Shutter is once again presenting his uninformed baloney about the purchase of the Bonney Lake home by Kenny Christiansen, I thought I would set folks straight on all that once and for all. And yes...we've known for years that Kenny did not actually pay cash for the home and the adjoining property, although the actual transactions are FAR more suspicious.

  • Shutter is right on one point. Kenny did NOT pay cash. At least not ALL cash. We finally figured that out as well. (There's been an article at Cooper WordPress about this for more than two years now, Shutter.) Other than that, it's about the ONLY thing he got right. Why? He didn't go to some of the sources we did. He also likes to publish stuff to his website without consulting with the folks who actually did the investigation on KC and Geestman. Doesn't make him an evil person. Just means he'd make a lousy journalist. 
     
  • The purchase price of the home was approximately $15,000 in total, yet only a mortgage for $7,500 was actually granted. There is a reference to a Promissory Note for, payable to Joe and Ann Grimes, the couple who owned the home. There is NO reference to the amount of this note, or any picture of such an agreement in the records. It is merely mentioned there WAS a note. We thought this was very suspicious. 
     
  • Joe and Ann Grimes were friends with the alleged accomplice, Bernie Geestman. He was the Best Man at the Grimes' wedding. Several witnesses, including Helen Jones, have testified that Geestman was the go-between for Kenny and the Grimes couple, who Geestman knew had a home for sale in the Bonney Lake area. 
     
  • Joe and Ann Grimes were deceased at the time of the investigation. So we interviewed their son down in Rochester, WA. He confirmed that the balance on the home was in the form of a Promissory Note, and said that he did not know how long Kenny took to pay off this Note, but that his dad was definitely a cash-on-the-barrelhead kind of guy and would not have waited long to get his money. He was absolutely certain on this point. 
     
  • We believe that Kenny would not have paid cash that would be visible in the sales records for this home, simply because it would have drawn attention to him. So...he had Geestman go the Grimes couple and tell them (he) Kenny could be trusted. Most likely, Geestman would have told them that Kenny had a professional-type job with Northwest Airlines and made plenty of money. (In fact, Geestman claimed later in his first interview that he 'thought those airline guys did well,' when he knew they did not.) The Grimes accepted payment from the mortgage via the bank, and got the rest of their money on that Promissory Note. The question of course is HOW Kenny could have paid them off the remaining balance in such a short time. After all, he took 19 years to pay off the first half of the money, the mortgage, which was satisfied in 1990 by SeaFirst Bank. 
     
  • About four months after the original house sale to Kenny, the Grimes couple signed another note granting Kenny an additional plot on the property for 'Ten Dollars and Other Considerations'. We found this suspicious, as the Grimes could have sold that property for a lot more than ten bucks. What we believe is that 'other considerations' meant another side payment to the Grimes, which they would have accepted gladly on another Promissory Note...but ONLY if KC had paid off the first one related to the original house sale. 
     
  • Our next question was simple. Where would Kenny come up with $7,500 in additional cash to the Grimes to satisfy the Promissory Note? Or even the (possible) SECOND note, the one that refers to 'Other Considerations' regarding the adjoining lot? He didn't have the resources. In both cases with these notes, the amounts are not directly stated.
     
  • And in ANY CASE, the original, complete price of the home is NOT REPRESENTED FULLY by a mortgage of $7,500. So either Kenny made a down payment of around 50% of the home somehow, or it was covered by a Promissory Note. The probable reason to arrange everything like that was to avoid making public record the amounts of these promised cash payments to the Grimes couple. Not to protect Ann and Joe Grimes from anything, but to keep cash payments out of public record. Had Kenny become a suspect early on in the Cooper investigation, he would have had to explain where he got all that money, and the Grimes would have had to reveal not only the AMOUNT of any Promissories, but HOW QUICKLY Kenny paid them off. 
     
  • In total, two things are certain. The official paperwork doesn't cover the total price of the home, and it's doubtful that the Grimes couple waited 19 years on at least one, and possibly TWO Promissory Notes representing the balance. Pretty complicated, isn't it? We thought so too. So let's cut to the chase on what we think actually happened, and do it in a nutshell for you:

Kenny, if he was Cooper, now has a ton of cash. He wants a house in the Bonney Lake area, but he has to be cautious not to draw attention to himself. 

Geestman tells him of a house in Bonney Lake owned by two of his friends. He assures Kenny he can convince the Grimes to sign a mortgage with Kenny as the payer for half the home. He was the Best Man at their wedding he says. So Geestman goes to the Grimes couple and convinces them Kenny can be trusted, and they will get their money. 

Kenny, knowing he probably wouldn't qualify for a loan of $15,000 when he only makes $512 a month, offers to pay the Grimes half of the purchase price on a Promissory Note, due within 90 days of the sale. Since Geestman has played up Kenny's employment for NWA and convinced them falsely that Kenny does very well there, the Grimes agree to this arrangement. 

Everyone signs the mortgage, and the Grimes receive HALF the price of the home in a payment from the mortgage company. Kenny moves in and pays off the balance by paying off the Promissory Note. After he does, since he doesn't want to try for another mortgage on the adjoining lot....everyone signs ANOTHER document granting Kenny possession of the adjoining lot for 'Ten Dollars and Other Considerations,' such considerations undoubtedly being another cash payment to the Grimes, who are now completely satisfied and no longer have any rights on the property. 

Kenny takes almost twenty years to pay off the original mortgage, the first half of the price of the home. If anyone were to question him about it, he can say he only pays $90 a month for the property. This would deflect any suspicion he was spending beyond his means. And since there is no official record on the amount of the Promissory Note(s), he can tell people whatever he wishes. The only risk he REALLY takes is if he questioned about this home while the Grimes couple are still alive, because they would reveal the true amounts of the notes. Once they died, he was in the clear, and there is no record about the amount of the notes. Of course, Kenny would have to explain the discrepancy between a $7,500 mortgage and the full balance, but with the Grimes no longer around he could say he stretched out the payments for years, etc if he chose. It's still a risk, but a small one. 

The truth is...paying cash for the home would have been a LOT worse, and much more suspicious. Which just goes to show that KC was smarter than people thought.  

One more thing. LIke the deal Geestman did for his sister Dawn Androsko in April 1972, getting her $5,000 from Kenny to move Dawn and her four kids OUT of the Geestmans' house...the whole arrangement for the house stinks to high heaven. The only thing we never figured out was how Geestman managed to convince the Grimes couple to accept the arrangements on the house. He must have been a damn good liar. B)

*DISCLAIMER: If you think this is the strangest story you've ever heard about buying a house, don't think you are the only one. So do I. Even some of the things you just read I'm not 100% sure on, except I would like to know how you buy a house costing in the neighborhood of 15-16K and the records can only account for about half that amount.*

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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2 hours ago, MarkBennett said:

Robert - keep in mind this was all during the Boeing downturn and houses were difficult to sell.  Although, I'd expect this transaction to be uncommon, it's not novel.  You must know some real estate people.  Ask them to walk through this with you.

I saw what you wrote over at Shutter's place. Did you actually study that convoluted stuff that Kenny/Bernie/and the Grimes couple did selling that house? You know what? Here's the way it is:

Anytime you or Shutter figure out ALL the details on how someone managed to buy a 15K house without a down payment on record...for a mere $7,500...and explain away a Promissory Note without a paper record in the transaction...you'll be sure to let me know. 

Don't drink all the Kool-Aid you get force fed over there by a guy who is too much of a coward to come forward to me personally unless he's really pressured to do so. 'Really pressured to do so' is defined as...he has to lash out to defend the baloney he posts over there on his one-way street website. B)

I'm going to drop a secret on you. Some of his users are beginning to see the light with both he, as well as Bruce Smith...because once in a while they go behind their backs and come directly to me. I guess they get tired of accusations without the benefit of the defendant's testimony being included. I worked with them but I also warned them not to say anything about it...because they would probably get banned. 

Some time ago, I did bounce this whole situation off a couple of real estate agents. They told me that from what they could gather, someone, somewhere agreed to pay at least part of the house off in cash on a short term note. But they said the paperwork on it would never pass muster today. Any mortgage company or bank would have wanted to know where the rest of the price of the house was coming from, and the arrangements on it...not to necessarily agree to finance the house...but to ensure the whole thing wasn't a scam somehow. 

EDIT: Any or all of you are free to discuss these issues with me come next June. I will be available, about twenty miles NW of Shelton, WA. You will have the entire weekend for questions. Or we can discuss it while doing some fishing in the lake.  :handpeace: On a side note, I get tired of reading disparaging comments regarding every public event we try to run in the interest of the Cooper case. I never heard so much mealy-mouthed, self-serving junk in my life. You guys get the events you deserve, that's for sure. I also saw the comments about 'begging' some of you to show up. First, I am not having any trouble filling the slots. As Connie from the Auburn Days Festival told me, there's nothing like free food and prize money to encourage people to 'come on down,' as they say on The Price Is Right. And no...I am not upset about being cut from a documentary that turned out to be an exploration of the fringe folks in the Cooper case. Had I known Dower was going that route, I would have turned him down anyway. 

I don't have any hard feelings toward anyone about all these things, but whether you guys like it or not, attend or not...we're going to do the Cooper Party next year and almost certainly reach max capacity, if not a lot more. This time, I am not relying on others to help organize this one. Last time I tried that, people started shooting poison pen emails to the other organizers. All of you ended up getting stuck with Eric's theater event at twenty bucks a ticket. We don't charge people at these campouts, although this will be the first time we offer up more than a thousand bucks in prizes. Probably a lot more, if Greg the Techie Guy has his way. And why would I want to stop him? 

In my humble opinion, few of you over there have the slightest bit of courage, nor do you know how to separate personal from business. I didn't make the 2021 Cooper Party an open invitation because I thought we wouldn't get attendance. I did it because I thought it was a good way for you to promote your books and ideas on the case, and the most fair thing to do. Two people you already know from Cooperland are showing up, and a third is considering the idea. But it's still more than six months away. Almost a third of the slots are tentatively taken already, but I decided not to do a cutoff. Some people may have to say pass at the last minute, for one reason or another. It's hard to commit fully to an event so far down the road. I will know more after January on where we stand. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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The process based on what I saw was the Grimes got a $7500 assumable loan on the house that Kenny was able to take over.  Not a big risk for the mortgage company if Kenny could cover the payment, and it was only for 50% of the value of the house.  The Grimes then took a note for the rest of purchase price.  They're in second position behind the mortgage company -- so again, nothing out of the ordinary.

I wasn't able to find out the purchase price because of mortgage doesn't list the price.  But, there was excise tax paid, so it's possible to figure out if that document can be found.

But, that's going off on a tangent.  Kenny was a smart investor who was able to buy a house putting up little or no money.  He also bought some wooded land in 1961 that he sold for $300,000 in the early 90s.  That transaction alone explains the value of his estate when he died.

Let's say you still want to make the case for Kenny being Cooper.  Fine.  But, if he were, those facts seem to suggest no financial windfall and he lost all of the money on the way down.

If Bernie had simply told you "Kenny couldn't have been Cooper.  I was with him that weekend", you would have dropped this whole thing.  And, think how different the last 12 years of your life would have been.:)

 

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17 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As far as Hahneman, if you can't get the criminal files by the FBI on him, you might be able to get the court transcripts from his trial for the hijacking he DID do. You may find your answers in there. Without a doubt, when Hahneman was still in flight with all that money and on the way to Honduras...the FBI must have wondered if he was Cooper and striking again. It would have been their first thought. You need to find out why he's not even mentioned in the Cooper files, and why the FBI never linked him to the Cooper case, even though they had his 12 years in prison to do so. This issue may have been addressed in his trial transcripts. Your answer could be right in there. Matrix or not, profile or not...the most likely answer is that the FBI showed his pictures to the witnesses and the witnesses said no. Or...the FBI was able to establish Hahneman's whereabouts on 11/24/1971...and it wasn't the Great Northwest. Probably both. 

I wrote a long detailed response but deleted it,,

I just can't give away the details here and now. There is no upside..

On KC, it is a weak case. A bunch of weak correlations and "opinions" don't add up to be convincing. I can't prove he wasn't Cooper but there are probably thousands of people that you can make some case for.

I'll repeat it,, there is no suspect on the same level as Hahneman. NONE

 

Somebody should put together a suspect profile/matrix.. and tick boxes.

Edited by FLYJACK

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4 hours ago, MarkBennett said:
Quote

**The process based on what I saw was the Grimes got a $7500 assumable loan on the house that Kenny was able to take over.  Not a big risk for the mortgage company if Kenny could cover the payment, and it was only for 50% of the value of the house.  The Grimes then took a note for the rest of purchase price.  They're in second position behind the mortgage company -- so again, nothing out of the ordinary.**

Robert says: I believe it was Geoff Gray who discovered the actual purchase price of the home at $14,000, and the added lot for an additional $1,500, (not ten bucks). So how did Kenny manage to pay off the balances so quickly, as the Grimes' son claimed he did? And why did Bernie Geestman have to serve as the go-between? The son says he knew of Bernie, but didn't know him very well personally. This is not surprising since Bernie was Best Man at his folks' wedding. In any case, the $5,000 cash loan to Bernie's sister in April 1972 has been heavily verified by several witnesses, including the lady who received the loan.  

Quote

**I wasn't able to find out the purchase price because of mortgage doesn't list the price.  But, there was excise tax paid, so it's possible to figure out if that document can be found.**

Robert says:  $14,000 for the house, according to Geoff Gray and Skipp Porteous. $1,500 for the added lot. Unfortunately, Skipp tossed some confusion into all this by saying he thought Kenny paid cash for the home, a story which I believed for a while. I hadn't been working with him very long, but I knew he had access to all those databases he did, so I took his word for that. It's TRUE that Shutter corrected that. Later, I published a revised article at Cooper WordPress on it. 

Quote

**But, that's going off on a tangent.  Kenny was a smart investor who was able to buy a house putting up little or no money.  He also bought some wooded land in 1961 that he sold for $300,000 in the early 90s.  That transaction alone explains the value of his estate when he died.**

Robert says:  I have heard from other sources that he bought a twenty-acre wooded lot behind what is now the Bonney Lake Safeway, but not in 1961, but sometime shortly after the hijacking. I would like to see the document on this property. I don't think you would give a date unless you had seen this document, but in 1961 Kenny wasn't living in the Bonney Lake/Sumner area, but up in Renton. It's possible he had both properties. If Kenny sold this other property for $300,000 it might explain his bank balance, but doesn't explain an unusually large gold coin and stamp collection he collected over a number of years prior to that. The fact is, I think Kenny was pretty smart and never exposed himself by making large cash purchases. Everybody that knew Kenny said that one thing he did was to occasionally give them expensive gifts. Others said he helped them out with cash, like Kenny MacWilliams. Tracking someone's financials from so many decades ago just isn't very easy, and there is no way to know Kenny's spending habits. 

Quote

**Let's say you still want to make the case for Kenny being Cooper.  Fine.  But, if he were, those facts seem to suggest no financial windfall and he lost all of the money on the way down.**

Robert says: I know you haven't seen it yourself, but if you HAD seen the hiding place Kenny built in that attic, you would know it wasn't done on a whim. It's HARD to get into that attic. You need a ten foot ladder and some serious work with a screwdriver. Even then, you aren't going any higher than your hands and knees. Center peak is four feet at best. 

Quote

**If Bernie had simply told you "Kenny couldn't have been Cooper.  I was with him that weekend", you would have dropped this whole thing.  And, think how different the last 12 years of your life would have been.:)**

Robert says:  Bernie DID say Kenny couldn't have been Cooper. But he turned white as a sheet as he did.  Something I said scared the shit out of him. When he found out his sister Dawn was telling me everything she knew, and that History Channel was talking to her too, he called her up and told her to keep her mouth shut and take back everything she said. She refused, but also said she wouldn't go on national TV against her own brother. Then he told History Channel that Kenny COULD be the hijacker. But by that time, we had already established beyond doubt he was WITH Kenny the entire week of the hijacking. Helen Jones, Margie Geestman, others...all testified to this and gave basically the same story. Jones went into some detail about it. The really sad part is that I should have gone with the film crew as they offered, put on a headset, and listened to Bernie Geestman when they interviewed him. But I was so exhausted from them sending me off to see Margie in Twisp, WA again...that I declined and went home. They wanted me to communicate live with the director over a private headset while Geestman was being questioned, and if I had points I thought they should make, I should say what they were. 

Then when I saw the show in January....I knew I had made a mistake. Bernie says Kenny could be the hijacker. Yes. He looks just like Cooper he says. I would have told the director to challenge Geestman with the testimony from Margie, Helen Jones, and others who said he was with Kenny the entire week of the hijacking, and where they went. (To the trailer in Oakville, driving the station wagon) They would have caught him right there. But that's my fault. The only good side to all of it was on the final visit to Margie, she finally admitted that Kenny was the hijacker, and it was Bernie who assisted him. I should have manned up, but I figured the cast and crew would be able to 'break' Geestman's lies on their own. My mistake. It's a 500 mile round trip to Twisp and I was falling asleep at the wheel and dead on my feet when I got back and checked in at Bonney Lake with the film crew. They somehow didn't understand that witnesses had confirmed the two men were together, so they didn't challenge Bernie on why he would give Kenny up like that, instead of giving him an alibi. I have always regretted that, because it was the best chance to get to the truth. We had him. And we let him go. Or rather...I let him go. I blame myself for this. 

 

It really isn't the stuff before the hijacking, or the value of Kenny's estate when he died that matters. It's how much you can establish on his behavior and his whereabouts just prior, and within a year after the hijacking. We concentrated on that quite a bit. And why would a guy like Troy Bentz risk his career with the US Navy to come forward with he and his friends' testimony on Agent John Jarvis? Even Bentz' wife got pissed he was doing that, telling him that their kids did swim team with FBI and military family kids. In one of my phone conversations with him, I could hear her in the background. Not happy. And Bentz telling her how important this whole incident was, etc. 

On July 29, 2015 I made a video where I attempt to deliver pictures and a report to the Seattle FBI. I waited in the lobby for an hour, and then an agent came down and told me that because of security reasons, anything like that had to be mailed to them and go through a security check. So they got the actual documents at the end of the first week of August. Case was closed less than a year later. I can't tell you the report was the reason, but two months after they closed it was when Bentz and his friends heard Agent Jarvis' claim on why it WAS closed. I can't determine for sure whether John Jarvis was telling the truth, but I was able to confirm that the conversation happened. Why would Jarvis, a 15-year veteran of the Bureau in a fairly high position at Quantico, say something like that if it wasn't true? It's hard to dismiss, especially with three witnesses. All these files being released by the FBI....I would like to see some files from between 2014, and when they finally closed the case in June 2016 or so. Remember....it was Larry Carr who basically kept it going and he didn't start that until around 2008. The FBI MUST have been getting tips and information about the case after that date. So where's all the 'stuff' about the time period between THEN...and when they finally closed the case eight years later? They should even have my 55 page report mentioned in there. Yet I have seen nothing so far from this time period, and supposedly the latest file was the LAST one, right? So the FBI is going to claim there are NO OTHER FILES after this last one? Baloney. Of course there are. I think it more or less ends right around the time of the discovery of the Amboy chute in 2008, but not long afterward. Years of investigation are missing somehow.  

I don't think anyone will end up being 100% proven as Cooper. If the FBI would release the results of their partial sample from the tie, I guess I might try to run Lyle Christiansen's DNA sample against it, but other than that I see no way to absolutely prove Kenny was Cooper. If Lyle's DNA turned out not to be an elimination factor, it would be a vital piece of evidence, but without the results from the tie being made public, there's no way to tell...and the FBI has already said they aren't spending one more penny on DNA tests. The test they have to do, like the one they tried to do with Marla Cooper's evidence is very expensive. 

LOL...I think I will just toss the biggest Cooper party in history next year and leave the whole thing at that. I've done my part, and contributed more on the case than most other people. And I'm just an ordinary guy who edits books and occasionally writes stuff on my own. And also scrubs toilets. What the heck do I know? ^_^

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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I can't find the original document....I might have mistyped the number.

My notes were (from Piece county site)

911190540  Statutory Warrantee Deed 11/19/1991
           From Edwin and Mary Smith
           Originally dated October 3, 1961 signed by the Smiths
           East half of Northeast quarter of the Northeast quarter, Section 10, Township 19 North,
           Range 5, EWM 
           Together with any and all mineral rights
           Kenny lived at 18406 Old Buckley Hwy
 

This is the land Kenny bought in 1961,   Document 821001 is still on the Pierce County site...that's when he sold the land for $300,000.  I attached that and the file that describes the parcel.  You might know if it's the one behind the Safeway.

It's grown up so rapidly around that area.  Kenny's old house has been torn down.  The first time I drove by there it was out in the middle of nowhere.  Hardly recognize it now.

 

 

821001.pdf 9209150606.pdf

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Margie Geestman told me that Kenny did buy a piece of land for cheap from a couple named the Smiths, on her recommendation. So I imagine it's the same one. Although she didn't say so, I'm pretty sure the Geestmans' assisted on this somehow, because they also purchased some of the land owned by the Smiths, she said. She said she told Kenny it was for sale. But it's hard to imagine Kenny could afford such a thing. He was off and on work quite a bit during this time, sometimes picking apples, and even a digging job later for the Seattle World Fair. Hard to say. 

One thing about the Geestmans, especially Margie, was that the three of them were the absolute best of friends for decades. Another was that up until the hijacking, Kenny was about as poor as a church mouse while the Geestmans with two incomes did fairly well. (She did bookkeeping work, and he was both a marine diesel mechanic later, worked for Boeing a bit, and a mechanic for NWA) Kenny always seemed to be on the outside of everything related to money. They are doing well as time went on, while Kenny was living in a cheap one-bedroom down in Sumner and commuting to Seattle...when they even called him up for a flight job.

I even suspected that Margie may have helped him purchase the land, to give Kenny a boost. She did mention in one of her interviews that Kenny sometimes had trouble paying the yearly taxes on the Safeway-area property, let alone the payments. While I was investigating all these things, I wasn't hitting the internet and trying to research out old land documents. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I was hitting the bricks all over the Northwest in my Subie wagon and hunting down the Geestmans, their family members when possible, and everyone Kenny and they ever knew. Interview after interview after interview. Most of them don't even appear, or are even mentioned in the Blast book. I let Skipp Porteous handle the background checks, the internet stuff, etc for the most part. He would send me these multiple-page reports on EVERYONE, usual PI stuff from the NCIC or background check services where he had unlimited use subscriptions. Most of the interviews were cold-call, and pretty much everyone was cooperative except Mr Geestman himself. At first he was...rattling on about he and Kenny's time working for NWA up in Shemya, the pioneers of the trans-Pacific air trade, how he liked Kenny and him serving as Best Man at his wedding etc. Lots of stuff. Right up to the point where I finally admitted I wasn't doing a biographical book on Kenny's life...but investigating him for the Cooper case. He was definitely frightened out of his wits by that and stuttered his way right back into the house. I thought he was going to faint dead away on his own front porch. 

Once in a while, I see someone post up that Skipp Porteous disowned me after the book and Geoff Gray hates me. Both those things are ridiculous. Skipp and I always got along fine, and he tried to keep working with me after 2012, but by that time his aphasia had become so bad he could barely type. All Skipp's family are Facebook friends, and keep hoping the movie will be made. Gray and I get along just fine, even today. I belong to his magazine website although what they do there is a bit above my head, so I don't participate much. But if I email him, he always answers. I still think Gray is the smartest of the Cooper investigator bunch. He knew when to get out and move on to something else. ^_^

Below: A picture from just prior to my first interview with Margie Geestman. Along the Methow River near Twisp, wondering how I was going to approach Margie the first time. She didn't have a phone. However, she DID own a shotgun. 

robert350articlemarlacooper.jpg.067e8ea1645e939ddb0f430eb5aa4772.jpg

The truth is that I'm not much interested in chasing the Cooper case any further. Some of the witnesses are gone now, and I figure with the bomb testimony from Bernie's niece, and the alleged statements by FBI agent Jarvis, there isn't a whole lot else I could do to 'prove' Kenny was Cooper anyway. I did what I could. The results ended up in a literal ton of files and pictures here at our home office, a report to the FBI, a book, and maybe 60 articles for Cooper WordPress. Covid 19 certainly hasn't helped anyone, and I think it's time to move on like Geoff Gray did. 

So, I will toss one big-ass party in the Olympics next summer as a thank-you to Cooper fans and leave it at that. I just want people to have fun, and I think since the Northwest has been Cooper Party deprived since 2016, it's the least I can do. After that, I'm headed to southern California. Funny thing how sometimes people end up right back where they started. I was born there, and spent my early years in San Francisco. I was dragged to Washington because...of all things...my father got out of logging in Oregon and was hired by Boeing. They offered him ten bucks an hour and a $5,000 moving expense bonus, which was a fortune in those days. The farm we bought down near Sumner in 1967, with a house and two barns, only cost $10,500. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Better explanation from Google Maps. The blue line shows the range they thought where Cooper may have landed. Of course, there would be wind drift of about a mile in any direction. Click on image to see it larger. The blue represents about three miles in length on this size map. 

PossibleLanding.jpg.aa5d62204106f837447755fc610f6434.jpg

On a side note, Eric Ulis has rid himself of his DB Cooper Con website, and hasn't been heard from (as far as I know) since that TV show aired. Maybe History Channel realized they tossed a bunch of money at a production that went exactly NOWHERE. Anyone could have told Eric that the flight path wasn't off by all those miles. SAGE radar is pretty accurate, also ATC radar, because if they were not, commercial jets would be smacking into each other all the time. Also, Flight 305's transponder was working, and the flight was being radar-tracked from behind by two fighter jets out of McChord AFB. The so-called 'Western Flight Path' theory has finally been laid to rest. :/

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Ulis has emerged from his lair deep inside an inactive Arizona volcano.. the one next to the Starbucks..

He claims the bomb was fake because "there is no reason for the bomb to have been real".. huh, say what..

Obviously we don't know if it was real or not, Eric's reasoning is silly and his typical use of fallacy.

The other fallacy he uses is the fact that "no evidence was found"..  so the path is wrong.. (other than the money)

That is factually incorrect, no evidence was reported found by the FBI. (the placard was not from 305)

Money or a briefcase could have been found but never reported. OR just never discovered. It wasn't all Weyerhaeuser land.

It is even possible TBAR money was originally found by somebody and then discarded..

 

Eric was upset the show left too much info on the cutting room floor,,, old cliche but so true. I dabbled in the TV business long ago and their agenda is entertainment for the widest audience. This case is extreme in its detail and would lose a general audience if a show got too detailed..

A show that did a deep dive into the case would lose almost everyone.. except the Cooper sleuths..

Never expect too much from these shows..

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Seattle FBI Special Agent in Charge Frank Montoya Jr.. claimed in the new vid they looked for cigarette butts and couldn't find them... don't know where they are.

How can the FBI not know their own docs.. 

"it was discovered that this evidence had been destroyed years earlier in Las Vegas"

cigbutssdestroyed.jpg.7c0fa0fe03d433d27178c17e8ce55b15.jpg

 

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Among Cooper fans, KATU TV in Portland is most famous for their coverage of the Tina Bar money find. 

But the year PRIOR to Cooper...they covered something even MORE strange. And that was when officials tried to blow up a dead whale on the beach in Florence, Oregon...using 1,000 pounds of dynamite. The theory was, it would blow it into small pieces for scavengers and no longer be a problem. 

As it turned out, they should have just hired a bulldozer and buried it. ^_^ Pieces of the whale traveled over a quarter mile away, hitting spectators with rotten blubber and even damaging some cars. 

Speaking of videos, I'm eventually going to do a three-minute video on the upcoming DB Cooper Party 2021 for YouTube and Quora, but probably not until around February 1. By that time, we should know more regarding the availability of a working Covid-19 vaccine. As some of you know who have already been to the Party Page at AB, all attendees will be required to present proof they have had the two-shot vaccine series before we send them the final PDF document with all the maps, details, driving directions, rules, (not many of those) suggested gear, etc. No proof, no PDF.

If the participant cannot provide such proof before the day of the event, we will allow them to present that proof at the Rally Point. But if they can't, we will not allow them to go beyond the Rally Point. And if they follow us, they will not be allowed either to the main campsite or anywhere near the event itself. I doubt anyone's stubborn enough to drive twenty miles further just to be rejected, though. B)

I think this might be the first time someone's tried making a vaccine a requirement to attend something, but we're not hosting a Covid spreader event here folks. Besides...if we stick to this policy, then wearing masks will be optional for everyone. So far, about sixty people have contacted us, with maybe a third of them saying they definitely expect to attend. And not a one of them has bitched about the vaccine requirement. In fact, most of them think it's a damn good idea. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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46 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Egg Harbor, NJ suspect is mentioned by Martin Andrade on his site. I’m behind on reading the 302s. Anyone know which release this one is in? Martin mentions Max Gunther in the same article, interesting to see Gunther still being talked about. Thanks. 

FBI file #52 page 190

FBI file #35 page 293

Edited by FLYJACK

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49 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

Any chance we can get the fbi doc references to the palm prints? (asking for a friend... ;-) )

"palm print" search

file 10 page 34, 194

file 18 page 74

file 27 page 110

file 30 page 153

file 39 page 445

file 45 page 173, 303, 304

file 51 page 209, 355

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Quote

"Dead people are removed from the (FBI's fingerprint) database when their data is submitted to the FBI by a coroner’s office. It used to be that anyone over the age of 65 who hadn’t been arrested or imprisoned in 10 years was assumed to be dead or not an active criminal and removed from the file. In recent years the age limit has been increased somewhat..."

What does this mean? Due to the FBI's policy on fingerprints, and the massive Military Records Fire in 1973 at the St. Louis main facility, it is unlikely Cooper will ever be identified by fingerprints, unless the suspect in mind is still living, or is willing to be fingerprinted now. 

Why do they handle prints in this way? They get about 63,000 new submissions a day, on average. 

If this makes you think back to the destroyed/missing cigarette butts, it should. 

Seen recently elsewhere by Bruce, responding to a post by someone who said looking into the Cooper case was mainly a harmless sideline for people:

Quote

'Are you serious?
- threats of law suits
- death threats
- threats of physical violence
- spittle flying across the room whenever three of more of us are sitting at one table...'

Come on, Bruce. Get real. Check in at the Reality Hotel, at least occasionally. I know some of those comments were directed at yours truly. 

No one ever threatened to sue you. I told you the Christiansen family *might*, if you kept hinting a member of their family was a child rapist, as you did in your book. I told them you weren't worth the effort, and I heard later you toned down your accusations anyway. 

No one around here at AB of Seattle ever sent you a death threat. Maybe someone else did. Not me, not us. Not EVER. 

No one threatened you at the 2016 Ariel Party either. Story HERE. You said that stuff simply because Ariel store owner Bryan Woodruff refused you entry to the party. I never even SAW you there, and you were less than truthful to Meyer Louie just to get a ride to Ariel in the first place. He wasn't happy you did that, and later...both Meyer and I made a 40-mile trip to your house one evening just to make sure you were okay. You told people we had bad intentions, which also wasn't true. We did find out the cops did a welfare check on you the day prior, because you went to New York and forgot to tell anyone you did that...and since you are so active in the Cooper case, after a while people worried. Not just Meyer and me, but other people made comments of worry about you over at Shutter's forum. You could have just said there was no need for us to check on you, not to make it sound like we tried a home invasion. Trust me...I had better things to do on a work night. ^_^

Stop engaging in duplicity to justify your actions, make yourself look better, or other people worse. I don't think of you as a bad person, but these things can be a check mark against your character, making everything else you do look CHEAP. 

As far as the spittle thing....yeah...I can believe that. B) I haven't had that experience, but I could see it happening. 

For Everyone Else in Cooperland:  Even after all of THAT...we sent Bruce a personal invite to the Cooper Party next year, in case he wanted to hang out or make a presentation. There has been no response so far from him. I don't think there will be one, but I thought I would give him a shot at it. So far, two people in the Cooper community have expressed an interest in making presentations. It's still early though, and the party is six months down the road. A lot can happen in six months, and the party is still a work-in-progress, although it's looking good. Greg the Techie Guy and I are doing virtual meetings on it once a week, and meeting in person about every two-three weeks. We have also added one person to the planning committee this week, although I have a tough time trusting people with this event sometimes. We're compartmentalizing responsibilities as we go. Spots on that committee are still open, and anyone can apply. It's a Think Tank for the party, more or less. 

I haven't heard or seen any discussion about this event anywhere but at Dropzone. You can try to ignore it, but two things are also certain. We'll probably get more people than we can handle, or just barely, (we will figure a way if it comes to that) and whether you support it or not, like it or not, it will be the biggest Cooper event for 2021. This time, we do the planning. This time, we do the financing for it without asking for a cent or a venue from anyone else. I should have done this five years ago. 

And the truth is, as far as the exact details go, we're still working out ways that will encourage people to attend. Now that Greg has agreed to cover 80% or more of the financing, I just don't see a problem with it being the most successful Cooper event in Northwest history. If you show up, make sure you thank him. And if you don't, and it turns out a huge success...don't whine about missing the opportunity, or we will ask you if you want cheese to go with your 'whine'. B)

Edited by RobertMBlevins
Corrected number on daily submissions. Doesn't include civil submissions.

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15 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

It is huge speculation on my part. I still like the EHS as a leading suspect... at least until the next batch of docs shows otherwise...

Seems like a good suspect given that he worked for TWA and was possibly a pilot.  But does it match with Gunther's character at all? LeClair worked in industrial chemicals and the only aviation experience he had was as a paratrooper and I guess as a hijacker.

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