What not to do (how the Aggie almost died)

[AggieDave 6]

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Of course this is the biggest reason someone with low jump numbers should not be flying an elliptical, they don't have the understanding of how much altitude is lost in a turn and then end up cutting away at 200 ft.

You know, I just got flamed by two other people in the swooping for saying the exact same thing.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rgoper 0]

AggieDave:

first let me say "glad your o.k." secondly, it's a good thing your a experienced canopy pilot, i've heard you express your views before about canopy piloting, turns out your thoughts are valid. must be something in that aggieland airspace! i had my first "eliptical experience" there as well at AOTMB. only difference in mine than yours, i had my chin pinned down, i had to struggle to look up at the canopy. my last audible went off at 2500 AGL before i deployed, so i knew i didn't have anymore time, so i chopped it, never even looked at my altimeter...mistake? anyway my PD193 reserve landed me just perfectly on the landing area, it's flight reminded me of my Triathlon, so it wasn't a shock to experience it's flight charachteristics, except for the velcro toggle stows, i got the right toggle loose first and struggled with the left one, thus causing me to drop my reserve handle. i never thought twice, because i knew i was burning altitude quickly, i think maybe next time i might try a little harder to get it sorted out. my "hard deck" is 1800' AGL. not too long ago we had an experienced jumper in line twists take it to 1000' AGL before chopping and deploying, no RSL. it could've turned out very differently for him, he landed on the east side of the road in a field, his main not too far away from where he landed.

Thanks for sharing your experience, you did what you thought was right, and you lived, thus the 10th commandment of skydiving "never give up"

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[flyingferret 0]

I really dont get that....I was catching up on this thread, and the cobalt/students/beginners thread crossed my mind. Why is everyone so anxious to go small so fast? I realize it depends on the jumper, but I would imagine something very similar could occur on a slightly lower wingloading than yours.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[AggieDave 6]

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I was catching up on this thread, and the cobalt/students/beginners thread crossed my mind

That is a very good point! I hadn't thought of that during this entire time, although, I had discussed points of my adventure (screwup) in the swooping forum. However, I did get flamed pretty hard over there when I suggested this exact point, that an elliptical canopy will be more prone to this situations and at higher wingloadings, the altitude lost will be greater and faster.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skycat 0]

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Of course this is the biggest reason someone with low jump numbers should not be flying an elliptical, they don't have the understanding of how much altitude is lost in a turn and then end up cutting away at 200 ft.

You know, I just got flamed by two other people in the swooping for saying the exact same thing.

Tell them to read the incedents report in Parachutist January 2002.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Jimbo 0]

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I hadn't thought of that during this entire time, although, I had discussed points of my adventure (screwup) in the swooping forum. However, I did get flamed pretty hard over there when I suggested this exact point, that an elliptical canopy will be more prone to this situations and at higher wingloadings, the altitude lost will be greater and faster.

Dave, you weren't flamed, you were criticized for presenting what some thought to be misleading information. Specifically that your canopy and wing loading was responsible for your near brush with death. It wasn't. It was your insistance on fixing the problem and ignoring your surroundings, namely altitude, that was responsible for your near miss.

You said:

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That's how a normal skydive can go from good to almost dead when jumping a fully elliptical canopy!

It's true that an elliptical canopy is more prone to spinning malfunctions, I don't think that anyone will argue with that. Your statement however seemed to suggest that it was the fault of the canopy that you almost died. It wasn't. Had you cutaway at 1500ft (your hard deck) your story would have been much less exciting and you would have been in a better place. A better statement might have been:

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That's how a normal skydive can go from go to almost dead when you blow through your hard deck because you're not paying attention but instead wasting precious time trying to fix a high speed malfunction

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[RevJim 0]

There was a lot of good information in this thread, and I'd like to say "Glad you're ok, Dave."

You people can hash it around all you want, but the most important fact is that Dave is still here with us, period.

Now, for the most important piece of advice:
"Dave, you need to get yourself a new packer."

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[flyingferret 0]

Well Jim, I see your point. But evaluate both sides. Don't take this the wrong way, but Dave and I are still pretty green jumpers based meerly on numbers. Yet the two of us started together and would literally read anything and everything we can, and still do. Dave is very dilligent in terms of safety. I am not sure about the swooping forum, I don't read it. However, my point in the bringing up the early cobalt thread was that one small mistake can be very damaging. And this shows that even people that are very dilligent and have hundreds of jumps can make a mistake thinking they can better their situation. That being the case, the possible results for less dilligent people are frightening. As I suggested earlier, perhaps the average skydiver has so much faith in the modern equipment that they are trying to do too much in a dive. I am sure next time Dave will pull silver. But my previous statement persists as I ask how comfortable we should really be frequently pulling silver.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[btucker 0]

From the APF Opregs; The main parachute must be open at a minimum height of 1800 ft AGL. 1500ft seems reasonable to me.

Glad the Aggie lived to swoop another day...

Blues Benno

[AggieDave 6]

Jim,

You can read into what I said however you want; however, the fact still remains that I never blamed my position on anything but me screwing the pooch. Furthermore, in reference to what I said in the swooping forum, I was telling someone with low jump numbers who wanted to downsize to a fully elliptical canopy that things can go from sort of bad to really fucking bad very quickly under a fully elliptical canopy.

Now, if you flaming me represents a belief that jumpers with low jump numbers will be fine and that fully elliptical canopies don't give opportunities for really fast really bad situations, so be it. However, my original statements still stand.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Samurai136 0]

Roger Nelson talked about the near fatal mistakes you made at one of his lectures during winter expo this year. What I want to know is...

When are we going to see the Photos of this landing area?

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[AggieDave 6]

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When are we going to see the Photos of this landing area?

I took pictures of it yesterday, so I should have them developed tomorrow. Look for them tomorrow evening sometime (sorry its taken so long).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jimbo 0]

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Jim,

You can read into what I said however you want; however, the fact still remains that I never blamed my position on anything but me screwing the pooch. Furthermore, in reference to what I said in the swooping forum, I was telling someone with low jump numbers who wanted to downsize to a fully elliptical canopy that things can go from sort of bad to really fucking bad very quickly under a fully elliptical canopy.

And I was disputing your claim that suggested that it was somehow the fault of the equopment that you ended up where you did. That's all.

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Now, if you flaming me represents a belief that jumpers with low jump numbers will be fine and that fully elliptical canopies don't give opportunities for really fast really bad situations, so be it. However, my original statements still stand.

If you'll reread my post, carefully this time, you'll see that I never suggested that low time jumpers should be under a fully elliptical canopy; don't put words in my mouth. If you read carefully you'll also see that there's no flame in there, just a criticizm of the information you presented.

I'm done with this one.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[AggieDave 6]

If you're going to tell me not to put words in your mouth, I would appreciate the same courtesy. I have not blamed the equipment during any of this. Even in the first post I stated that I and I alone fucked up.

You have now single handedly taken a thread that people could learn from and turned it into a worthless pissing contest. I hope you're happy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mikkey 0]

Well, I am just ignoring the "pissing" and still find this thread very informative and food for thought...

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 2,400]

>And I was disputing your claim that suggested that it was somehow
> the fault of the equopment that you ended up where you did. That's
> all.

I read his post, and I didn't get that sense. He was jumping a canopy that spun up really quickly. It was his decision to jump that canopy, and it was his decision to not chop immediately. I don't see any of that as blaming the canopy; I think you're the only one who does.

[jumperconway 0]

I have ridden out spinning line twists on a Crosssfire loaded 1.87/1 and on Xaos's loaded above 2.5/1(with 42# of lead on last weekend) without chopping. The one spinning mal I did chop was probably a brake unstowed and line dump. I have had worse ones since under heavier loaded cross-braced canopies and worked them out by getting my risers even first to stop the spin. I realize that each mal has different scenarios, but I guess that with experience, I'm just not chop happy as some. The line over from below the slider that I somehow packed a couple of weeks ago was a different story. Chop #2-1183

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Chop #2-1183"
So Conway, the chop where I went after your shit over beside Schlumberger was your beer chop? Damn, if only I'd known. Och, I guess your too wised up to use the 'F' word around a DZ.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

Were they diving?

I never said to cut away line twists.....I said cut away DIVING line twists....

Unless you have great Alt awareness...you can find yourself in deep trouble fast.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jethers203 0]

AggieDave,

Glad all is well and you didn't quit jumping, but can you clarify some things for me.

"So I let up, letting my canopy surge forward with speed. I setup about 5' to the right of a building, had to swoop between two trees that were about 12' apart, carving around a large sign in the yard, but not able to go straight due to a parking lot with cars in it. So I continued to carve to the right, having to swoop under another set of powerlines. I had put my feet down quickly, trying to stop. I did stop (standing up, strangely enough), on the other side of a ditch I just went over, about 2 feet from a highway."

Damn, that is hard core. 12' with like a 20' span, carving around signs and buildings, over ditches and under powerlines. You need to compete in swooping competitions or have a movie made. I bet it could be better than "CUTAWAY". Sounds like bad body position or poor pack job. Maybe just a wack canopy overall. I will refer to the three things why a parachute malfunctions in most cases.

1) Poorly maintained or damaged equipment.
2) Bad body position on opening.
3) Poor pack job.

You can almost always relate any problem to one of these reasons. What chute was it anyway? A Heatwave?

[rgoper 0]

as i mentioned earlier in the thread, good canopy piloting skills was a key factor in helping him survive this one, point being, hone your canopy skills. more often than not, an overlooked aspect of our sport. Ron makes a valid point as well, if you have diving, severe line twists, chop it. and of course we all know elipiticals are more prone to twists because of bad body position at deployment, especially at high wing loads. when i chopped my Cobalt 170^2 at the same DZ, the twists were so severe my risers were spun up, thank goodness for hard housings, easy pull, one hand.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[AggieDave 6]

The measurements are a very rough estimate from looking around AFTER I landed. I have gone back out and taken pictures for everyone, but they're not developed yet (should be soon).

Although the measurements are more then likely inaccurate, the obsticle list is true. If you don't believe me, feel free to come up to the DZ and I'll take you to where I landed.

I've never claimed to be some sort of swoop god, I'm just starting to really nail good swoops (and that's not every one), I just got lucky and most importantly, I didn't freak or hesitate when presented with a bad landing.

As for your list of 3 things.

Packjob, well, maybe, I am however a very good packer (who is a professional packer). Body position. Yeah, I could give that to you, I don't have enough jumps to claim I was perfect in the harness. Equipment maintence? Doubtful, my gear has about 250 jumps on it and I'm very good about maintance.

It felt like the d-bag didn't leave the container clean, so it was probably body position.

Yes it was my Heatwave.

I guess since you've never met me, you don't trust me, that's fine. Hopefully someone will still learn from my mistakes and not make them as I have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[robskydiv 0]

Hi AggieDave. Very glad to hear that you are alright.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I just got lucky and most importantly, I didn't freak or hesitate when presented with a bad landing.

It's amazing what you can do when you really have to. Around jump 40 I had my first off in a graveyard. My typical landings were no wear near my intended target and I pretty much didn't know where I'd end up until my feet were on the ground (often followed by my ass). But on that jump I went crosswind between a row of headstones and stood it up.

[dreamsville 0]

Since you were planning on living, I know you weren't trying to cut the funeral home out of their share by landing where you did.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143