for the people in the industry: would you let a student pull a reserve because they wanted to inspect it?

[Nightingale 0]

Please, only DZOs or DZ employees (or contractors ) answer this.


This came up in another thread:

A student, first jump, wants to inspect the gear they'll be jumping. They want to look over their reserve, from their exact rig.

Should they be allowed to pop the reserve and inspect it?

We talk about personal responsibility in skydiving, but I know I asked if I could look at my reserve, and was told no. How is a student supposed to be responsible for the gear they strap onto their back if they're not permitted to even look at it?

[dgskydive 0]

I would not let them pull it for the simple reason that it costs money to repack it. Plus money is lost while the rig is down for repack since nobody else can use it.

What are they going to look at anyways? They have no idea what they are looking at.

If they wanna see the reserve card to show that it is in date and what was done last time it was inspected. That is no problem.

Dom

[Nightingale 0]

then how, like Lisa said in another thread, is the student supposed to be able to take complete responsibility for the rig on their back?

how can you be responsible for something you can't see?


(and I'm not saying students should be allowed to pull reserves. I agree with you.)

[PhreeZone 15]

No, and the personal responcibility comes in that the student could do the research ahead of time to see the repack card and verify that the info is correct and that it is in date.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Nightingale 0]

but they still can't see what's in their container. The rigger could've stuffed the container with moldy socks for all the student knows, and written down incorrect information on the card. The only way to verify that there is, in fact, a reserve in the container, and that the reserve is what the card says it is, is to open it up.

[jeremyneas 0]

Ok then, first the student pulls the reserve out and looks to make sure there is no hole in the slider, then lets break out the aircraft paperwork, and he should rip the cylinders apart, you know, to make sure there is no metal shavings and stuff in there. Better get out there and FOD walk the flightline before you take off, never know. Oh and hand him a shotgun to scare off any birds that might be flying by. Could be a grease spot on the tarmac out there, thats a potential slipping hazzard. And what about the truck that picks him up after the dive, shit, is that thing approved to have people sit in the back while it is in motion, better check out those local ordaninces, seatbelts? Crack open city hall and start going through the shuffle. How bout that pilot? Get the logbook, he could be full of shit, and you better start verifying all those signatures, and call the flight school he received his licences from. Call the FAA and make sure the licences are lagit. Back to the hanger, better make sure your instructors are lagit, nonono put the cards away (after all, signatures don't mean shit, especially with reserve repack cards) so you better start handin over all those logbooks you have, so there can be verification of all those jumps, and all the qualifiying jumps for the AFF course. Remember people, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO STOP HERE, MY HANDS ARE JUST TIRED!!!

Sometimes you just have to trust the professionals you work with (or hire).

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

How about when you have your own gear and give it to a rigger for a repack. Do you trust them to do it? Of course you do! They went through a lot to get that ticket, and they are not going to screw themselves out of it just to stuff socks in your rig so they can sell your second hand reserve for a small amount of money that is no where near what they paid to get that ticket.

There is no reason not to trust the riggers at your dropzone. Do you trust your dropzone? Of course you do, or you wouldn't be flinging yourself from their planes. So, why wouldn't you trust the people your dropzone hires to pack the reserves in their student rigs? Have faith. Those rigger courses are not a walk in the park, so I hear.

They are running a business. There is no reason they should have to show you the reserve in the rig you will jump. If you are that uncomfortable, become a rigger, buy your own gear, and pack it yourself...

Angela.

[diablopilot 2]

Sure. It's going to cost them though. For the repack. Oh and they won't be doing it on a busy Saturday, but are welcome to do it when time permits.

Or if they were that concerened they would be welcome to use their own gear provided it met all the specifications of my hypothetical student program.

It would be costly.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DJL 232]

Hey, why not? Just charge them up the ass for it. There's not only the cost of the repack but if the only available rigger is a TM then cover the cost of tandems he/she will be missing.

I am posting because I'm a DZO. I'm not affiliated with the USPA or any organization. You supply the plane and all that stuff and you can jump, as long as you find a runway and a place to land and do the paperwork thingys.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kurt 0]

if you explain the working, and regular repacks,
packing card, packer ratings ed....
the student should feel confident.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Please, only DZOs or DZ employees (or contractors ) answer this.


This came up in another thread:

A student, first jump, wants to inspect the gear they'll be jumping. They want to look over their reserve, from their exact rig.

Should they be allowed to pop the reserve and inspect it?

We talk about personal responsibility in skydiving, but I know I asked if I could look at my reserve, and was told no. How is a student supposed to be responsible for the gear they strap onto their back if they're not permitted to even look at it?

I voted yes with one condition, that the rig's reserve is out of date, and it would be the instructor's or rigger's discretion to let the student pop the reserve only in the presence of such, and if they have time to go over the nuances and workings of the rig and reserve deployments with the student. Just my two cents.

Blue Skies
Billy

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,400]

>Should they be allowed to pop the reserve and inspect it?

No, that costs money. They should be allowed to see a reserve if they want to. If they insist on jumping the reserve that they saw, well, that's fine too. They can come back after the repack.

>but I know I asked if I could look at my reserve, and was told no.
> How is a student supposed to be responsible for the gear they
>strap onto their back if they're not permitted to even look at it?

If you feel the least bit uncomfortable about ANYTHING in your student education, ask about it. If they refuse to answer it to your satisfaction, find another DZ. It's your life, after all.

If, on the other hand, you accept their answer/excuse and figured you'd just trust them rather than bother to find another DZ, realize that YOU made that decision, and realize that you have to accept the consequences of your decision. We're all adults, which means we are all responsible for our actions (or lack thereof.)

[Hazarrd 1]

Quote

How about when you have your own gear and give it to a rigger for a repack. Do you trust them to do it? Of course you do! They went through a lot to get that ticket, and they are not going to screw themselves out of it just to stuff socks in your rig so they can sell your second hand reserve for a small amount of money that is no where near what they paid to get that ticket.

There is no reason not to trust the riggers at your dropzone. Do you trust your dropzone? Of course you do, or you wouldn't be flinging yourself from their planes. So, why wouldn't you trust the people your dropzone hires to pack the reserves in their student rigs? Have faith. Those rigger courses are not a walk in the park, so I hear.

They are running a business. There is no reason they should have to show you the reserve in the rig you will jump. If you are that uncomfortable, become a rigger, buy your own gear, and pack it yourself...

Angela.

I think this doesn't correlate at all to what the poster was asking. A student has NO clue what the hell a riggers ticket is or how hard it is to get. We as skydivers know the value of a riggers ticket and, atleast for me, only go to riggers we trust whom we have met over time. I think the case with being a student is completely different.

.-.

[billvon 2,400]

>What are they going to look at anyways? They have no idea what
>they are looking at.

It is our job to teach them. At my FJC's we unpack a main as if it was being deployed and go over the basics of deployment, what each part does, how they can fail. I don't go over a reserve because they are essentially identical to the main parachute. If a student wanted to see a reserve afterwards, they would at least be able to identify the basic parts and see that it was packed in such a way that it would deploy.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

just to stuff socks in your rig so they can sell your second hand reserve for a small amount of money

Quote

There is no reason not to trust the riggers at your dropzone.

Well I know of at least two tandem rigs that had the
worn out mains switched with the new reserve,
i.e. old main packed as reserve, reserve packed as main. Then sold to Tm's as used rigs with fresh reserve repacks,
they were found at the next repack.
yes there are crooks in this sport...
As for the student opening up a rig NO, but I would offer to have them stop in durring the week to watch a repack and the could pull silver then, to understand how it all works and why we won't waste a repack once it's sealed.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

Hee! Hee!
Sure a first jump student can pop a reserve in the middle of a busy Saturday - as long as he is willing to pay me for the 3 hours worth of tandem students I will miss: $120 to 180.

Seriously, first jump students should trust riggers to be professional.
On another note, I frequently invite PFF or A level jumpers to pull reserve ripcords when they come due for repacks. They get to see the pilotchute leap across the room, watch a reallly sloooooow deployment, but boredom usually overcomes them five minutes in to my inspection. ....
Hee! Hee!

[webracer 0]

I cannot imagine a student asking to see the reserve. They are pretty overwhelmed with whole process and primarily thinking about the skydive.
I would allow a student to pop the reserve if they agreed to pay for the repack and an extra 100% fee for downtime (of the rig). I feel that if a student wanted this though, it just means they need more instruction.
Luckily, I am at a big DZ where the downtime would have a minor impact. I still would be surprised.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[bendywendy 0]

If you are that worried about the dz equipment - I wouldn't jump there.

I would let a student pull the reserve at the end of the day providing they pay for the reserve repack. Then it isn't down during business hours and it isn't costing us anything.

However, that is also unneccessary wear on the reserve as well. The less it is opened up and packed and dragged around the better - providing it is stored well and maintained properly.

They really wont know what they are looking for other than an actual parachute being in there but if there is a seal on the rig - there is a parachute in there.

[pccoder 0]

Seems like a waste. Student's not going to know what he's looking at anyway.

PcCoder.net

[AndyMan 7]

Of course not. Students put their trust in their instructors. Elements of the waiver disclaiming quality of gear are meaningless.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[flyangel2 2]

I'm thinking like you. Years ago I had a student want to look at a reserve. Fine, I explained what it would cost him to have a rigger repack it, and also explained to the student that they would then have to wait till next week to do the jump. I also told the student they were more then happy to come and watch the rigger do the pack job, and then put the rig on their back and do the jump. Student didn't want to wait till next week. Gee, I seem to remember that student didn't do well on the skydive, and was never seen or heard from again.

Like Bill said, the student should know what they are looking at and for, it should be taught in the first jump class.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[riddler 0]

Also, some reserves get marked as being opened for repack or reserve ride, decreasing their value.

Bottom line - not your gear, not your choice. If you want to see the reserve, buy your own rig.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[boxingrrl 0]

I'm all for student's taking responsibility for themselves, but there has to be a limit-- as mentioned in several other posts. It sounds to me like the student should receive more education, and that should suffice-- but they could still be given the option of paying for the the repack and incidental expenses (time for the rigger/instructor away from other duties, rental fee for the rig's down time, etc.), and they shouldn't jump until they've "supervised" the rigger as he/she repacks it. If they choose the latter option, they're obviously all dollars and no sense.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

We are in the service industry. If they want it we will provide, but it's an extra.
Riggerrob said he would need $120.00-$180.00 to compensate him for the lost Tandems. I would suggest that he do it after the tandems for regular repack rate (times 1.5 if it made him late for supper). Of course the student would have to come back and jump the next day and I would have to be paid my hourly retrain fee to rehash the FJC.
No point in giving Rob all the extra dough; but If the customer is willing to pay then why not?

[Erroll 49]

I am not 'in the industry' so I didn't vote. However, I did follow the other thread closely and it seems daft to me to let a student pull a reserve because they wanted to inspect it. Even if a student did know what to look for, what would be the point ?(apart from ensuring the reserve tray wasn't full of socks.) The reserve would simply have to be repacked and the student would be back at square one! Either he/she or the next student could then ask to pull again? Doesn't make sense to me.