Hard Openings

[funks 1]

Theres been some talk recently about various canopies and injuries being caused by openings....Keep in mind I have always jumped a Sabre so I cant speak to all canopies....

Seems to me that the canopy type or manufacturer has no bearing on how it opens. Doesnt this all have to do with the way it was packed and body position?

I dont understand how a canopy can just out of the blue "Whack" you. There has got to be a reason besides "well, that particular canopy just sometimes does that"...perhaps the nose wasnt rolled enough, or the slider wasnt properly put in place or the body positioning at opening was somehow off....It seems like we should be in total control as to how our canopies open based on how we pack them.....but then again, that is just my opinion...So what do you think?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

I've had one hard opening in 1500 parachute jumps that I packed for myself - a 245 fox at terminal with a mesh slider and nothing done to the nose. Oof. After rolling the nose it was reasonable. A few out of my 7 AFF jumps produced bruises. Ow. Don't know if that was packing or the gear.

A few hundred of those jumps were made on my Monarch 155 and 135 which are supposed to open hard.

I think it's mostly packing and speed at deployment. Higher density altitudes noticeably speed up openings although I wouldn't call them hard.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Hard openings can be attributed to canopy type, but it is never the only factor. Otherwise, every opening would always be hard on that canopy. Speed, body position, packing, and chaos in the universe play havoc with the hopes of soft openings. Line dump can cause the occasional hard opening. I've heard "slider bounce", the rebounding of the slider down the lines as the canopy yanks out of the bag during deployment, is another, yet less understood, cause of hard openings. For that one, I've been double stowing lines to slow down the bag. My incidence of hard openings has lessened since I started that.

[funks 1]

so if it can be attributed to the canopy type what exactly is it about a canopy that causes a hard opening?

[councilman24 36]

Depends on your definition of hard openings. Many (most/all) of the newer canopies have been designed to take longer to open. Canopies like the Fury, Strato Cloud, Triathlon, Sabre, etc. would routinely take 300-400 ft to open. Many (most/all) jumpers with less than 5 years will consider them to open hard. I consider them to open normally. I had one of the first Spectre demo's because PD was replacing a lemon Sabre 190. I didn't pick it BECAUSE it took 700' to open, whether at terminal or hop and pop. And when hop and pop's are at 2000' you get to hear flatline on your time out. These are streamers that eventually clear.

Now, that's what todays jumpers want. I still jump my early Triathlon and Sabre because I want a parachute over my head in less than 500'. I once jumped a Viper and the owner warned me not to cut it away because it would take a 1000' to open. And it did.

So, the opening I want is a hard opening to many. Of course I'm an inch shorter than I was 20 years ago.

There are at least two groups of canopies. Those that open like a Sabre I and those that open like a Spectre. Outside of that any parachute can spank you hard, break bones, and maybe even kill.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JumpRu 14]

my favorite canopies are crossfire and samurai (with pocket slider). you have to pack them slider down to get a hard opening

• Quote

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I put "other" because both answers apply. There are more than a few types of canopies produced in the age of square parachutes which "generally" open harder than others. Yes, packing also plays a hand.

[piisfish 136]

I had a Sabre1 150 which opened fast (its a Sabre1), but never hard/slamming.

I have a Safire2 139, and had 2 slammers, but these were IMHO because I didn't quarter my slider properly... I never used to pull the nose side of the slider Now I do and have money openings. Always.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[popsjumper 2]

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...I didn't quarter my slider properly... I never used to pull the nose side of the slider Now I do and have money openings. Always.

Gotta agree....my only hard opening on any canopy was due to my failure to pull the nose of the slider out.....BANG!...won't do THAT again

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 3]

Some canopies lend themselves to a faster/harder opening by their design, while others will be slower/softer by design. But packing, slider type and size, deployment speed, deployment altitude and body position can also contribute to a "bad opening". The variables are to many to list.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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It seems like we should be in total control as to how our canopies open based on how we pack them.....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

There is nothing "controled" or "controlable" about parachute openings. There is nothing "scientific" about them either. Each opening is it's own dynamic, non-contoled" event. We just manage to get mostly good results from some canopies.

Sparky feel free to chime in here.... Oh. you already did.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[cheneyneel 0]

WHile packing and make of canopy contribute to large problems, understanding how canopies open can be keys to making them cooperate with you..

For Example:

SOme of the newer canopies are made to open correctly without any touching of the canopy/just flake wrap and put it in the bag. If you roll the nose or tail or both the slider will come down quicker amd create a very hard opening or one side inflating quicker causing line twists. all this adds up to NOT allowing the slider to do the job that it was made for!!! THis was just one example....

Some of these newer canopies are also made to open at higher speed

Understanding the make of the specific canopy you are jumping and what type of speeds/ non terminal deployments etc.. you are using it to play the biggest role of them all.. Please just dont jump anything!! Know what you are jumping and what you are packing!! iF you understand what canopy you are flying you might find that it is not the right canopy for you... Right now there are generations of canopies still on the market.. Dont get cought up with price color and coolness of what ever it is you should not be jumping.. Just know what it is before you pack it...

For example: I mostly freefly so at times i am dumping my canopy in a track or at a higher rate of decent speed.. That plays heavily into the decision of what canopy I jump... I am not going to dump a 300-400 ft opening canopy at 140mph.. I could kill my self/someone else/ or blow my gear up..

[cheneyneel 0]

Even After everything I wrote I think that I agree with Diablopilot.....

Uncontrolable!! that's why we all skydive.. If we had control it would not scare us anymore and we would quit...

[KCJumper 0]

The only true hard opening i ever had was due to my lack of paying attention. I had a triathlon 150 with a single kill line slider. I didn't notice in my hurry that it was collapsed. Man having an opening in less than 200' sure hurts. I haven't had any issues with slammers otherwise.

Patrick

[JohnMitchell 14]

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so if it can be attributed to the canopy type what exactly is it about a canopy that causes a hard opening?

Not enough slider, too slick of lines, too much open area on the front, angle of attack, brake settings, many other things. Maybe a real expert in canopy desighn can chime in here. John LeBlanc, you out there?

[murps2000 86]

Seems to me that the canopy type or manufacturer has no bearing on how it opens. Doesnt this all have to do with the way it was packed and body position?

I dont understand how a canopy can just out of the blue "Whack" you. There has got to be a reason besides "well, that particular canopy just sometimes does that"...perhaps the nose wasnt rolled enough, or the slider wasnt properly put in place or the body positioning at opening was somehow off....It seems like we should be in total control as to how our canopies open based on how we pack them.....but then again, that is just my opinion...So what do you think?
***



I believe packing definitely plays a part, but I can say without a doubt that type and manufacturer is a factor.
I got a great deal on an older FX, or so I thought. It was manufactured in '98, but had only 5 jumps on it, so it was basically new. After about 50 jumps on it it started cracking me, and I mean a lot, to the point that it actually damaged one of the cross braces. I got that fixed and jumped it some more, but did a few things. I was really anal about packing it, quarted the slider as perfectly as I could, tucked both sides of the nose inward, made sure the front of the slider was exposed, and made nice tight stows. Even then it would still nail me once in a while if I didn't do everything I could to slow down before deployment.
So then I heard about these dome sliders you can get for the FX, and how they really help. I also heard about the x-mod from Precision, and considered that, but that was $430 while the slider was only $125, so I ordered one. I put that on and it made the openings far better, but they were kind of weird, actually. The initial jerk to a feet to earth position was still pretty quick, but then it would seem that the slider would inflate, and it would settle down and snivel a bit before finally opening. I didn't like it because it was essentially a band-aid fix, it was huge, like a tandem slider, and it was a pain in the ass to stow. One of the other things I didn't like about the canopy in general was that the brake settings, when they were stowed, were such that it would almost open in full flight, and would be descending rather quickly. So now with this big slider, if I deployed at 3000', I would sometimes find myself at '1200 or so before getting my slider stowed, opening my chest strap, and finally unstowing my toggles. I think most would agree that one should unstow their toggles sooner than this in case there's a problem with controllability. But I liked the way the canopy flew and swooped, so I jumped it this way for a full season, and just tried to pull by 3500'
Finally, I happened to meet a canopy designer who is a competitor of Icarus' and who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are the same as the name of a popular 70's disco trio, and I asked him what was up with my canopy. After sort of shaking his head at the sight of my rediculously huge slider, he had me hold my toggles while he looked over the attatchment points at the trailing edge of my canopy. He then told me to get new steering lines built that were the same as my current ones, but with three inches added to the inboard lines above the cascade. He also told me how to move my "cat's eye" up six inches to deepen the brake settings on opening. Finally, he said I could put my old slider back on.
I finally got the lines built about a month ago (another $125.00), and re-installed the original slider. With admittedly some trepidation, I got to test jump it at Elsinore in October at Chick's Rock boogie. I was nervous because of the field elevation there which is higher than where I was jumping back east. On the first jump I pulled at about 4000 agl, which is like 5300 msl, and cringed out of habit. But I got the best opening I've ever had in the 200 jumps I've put on the canopy. And I've put about 20 more on it since, and now it opens like a dream. Also, with the deeper brake settings, it takes me about 500' to get everything put away and unstow my toggles. It's unreal almost, and I really dig my canopy, now. But I have to say that it burns me a little that a design flaw caused me to get ripped off on a dome slider. Further, it has made a complete travesty of all I thought I understood about parachute openings.

Rumors abound out there on hard openings, but there's a lot that even very experienced skydivers don't know. Talk to designers if you really want the straight dope.

[DanglesOZQld 0]

People have always bagged the Serie Pro Blue Track Canopies as being hard openers but I have always packed them myself and in about 2,000 jumps have only had two or three bad openings. A lot of it is in the packing and the way it goes into the container.

Even a very small anomally with any small/loaded canopy is enough to create major havoc and that is the beast we deal with. It is a trade off.

We want something that performs well and expect it (or not with some people!!) to bite us every now and then from having the same luxury. BT would probably have a fit if they knew what I do when packing my canopy but I get it snivelling almost as much as a new crossfire 2 most jumps. I have also jumped a bt Serie pro 140 and 120 for most of my 12 years and packing seems to be the major issue.

In a sport like ours you are bound to have a horrendous one every couple of thousand and that most times comes down to shit happens.

One of our tandem guys about a year ago had a shocker and I know for a fact that he packs the same way every time and is never unstable when dumping the drogue. That one was what I call a "two framer" in that we could see the tm and pax in one frame and they were gone in the next. The opening broke three lines on the right side and blew the canopy to smithereens. Not pleasant to look at but both ok albeit very sore.

It pays to learn as much as possible from others in this sport as well as being self critical at times to stay alive!! Some openings are just not able to be explained though!! BSBD!! -Dangles.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[darkwing 4]

ANY canopy can open hard. Some canopies open hard more often. A hard opening need NOT be associated with a packing error. Sometimes they just happen.

I believe the previous four sentences to be fact, not opinion. I realize that belief does not make fact though. I also believe that one individual's experience, even spanning thousands of jumps, is not particularly relevant.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[murps2000 86]

ANY canopy can open hard. Some canopies open hard more often. A hard opening need NOT be associated with a packing error. Sometimes they just happen. ***


I believe it's true that any canopy can open hard, even those that are normally not known for it. But I don't believe hard openings just happen, just as I don't believe that aircraft crashes just happen. We may not be able to conclusively figure out why in some cases, and we'll have to settle for saying it just happened. But I believe there's always a reason. In the case of a parachute deployment, it is a seemingly chaotic event, with a myriad of variables, such that applying scientific method must be difficult, and a controlled test scenario hard to achieve. But I still think there is a reason for every hard opening.

[jumpinjackflash 0]

I named my canopy SpankMe....

Cuz that is exactly what she does.

Until I had a pocket slider put on her.

Now she opens nice and soft, just like a good girl should.

What? I'm insane for naming her? I think not.


I was told by more than a few people that Strong ZPO's have a rep for doing that. I have no idea, but I know mine sure did.


TOns of things that cause it, but we had ran through everything from pack method to pilot chute size, etc.... on mine, and it still wanted to compress my head through my ass.

Ouch is all that I can say. One particular time managed to compress c1-c3 for me.



been there, done that,


jjf

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[firstime 0]

I got spanked once "big time" real hard.
1st: I didnt roll the nose enough, 1 or 2 turns. To
compound this snafu, just before I deployed I rolled
on my back (ass to earth) to check traffic, rolled back
and dumped, I think the pack job and increased speed was a factor. Thats my guess. Sabre 190. Off
heading sometimes but not slamming.