AFF Student loses canopy

[katzurki 0]

An AFF student cuts away from a legitimate malfunction, the canopy is lost. What's the common course of action in a situation like this? Does the DZ just suck up the loss? Does it have the right to charge the student, fully or partially? What should the student do?

This is an actual question, not a what-if.

[grue 1]

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An AFF student cuts away from a legitimate malfunction, the canopy is lost. What's the common course of action in a situation like this? Does the DZ just suck up the loss? Does it have the right to charge the student, fully or partially? What should the student do?

This is an actual question, not a what-if.

I've always been under the impression, right or wrong, that the risk of this is one of the reasons that gear rentals fees are oftentimes so high, and that if it happens, the student isn't charged...

cavete terrae.

[NWFlyer 2]

I believe the DZ should suck it up. To do otherwise could send a very troubling message to students.

It's part of the cost of doing business.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ladyskydiver 0]

Disclaimer: Not a DZO/DZM

I feel that is part of the student rental costs. The DZ should suck it up.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[SkyTango 0]

Gear rental contracts normally have something to the effect of ...

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"In the case of a cutaway on Club equipment, it is the responsibility of the jumper concerned, to retrieve the equipment after landing"

JC

If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You get another chance.

[vt1977 0]

I'd agree with what most others have said that the DZ should be responsible, not least because it was a legitimate malfunction that the student cutaway from and I imagine that it wasn't the student who packed it.

Vicki

[mr2mk1g 10]

I think it ought to be up to the DZ to absorb that cost as it is an inherant risk of owning rental equipment; the rental price should be chosen accordingly.

That said - the DZ is almost certainly free to contractually place the burden upon the student if they so wish. AFF is a contract for services like any other - who must pay for any lost equipment ought to be covered by that. If not there are probably general clauses in the waiver or membership agreement that would cover the situation.

[rsibbald 0]

Ethically, the DZ should always cover the cost if it is a student.

The thought, "I can't afford to chop this", should never even enter the students head.

[Dionysus 0]

I would be inclined to agree that if it is a student the DZ should absorb the expense. However, once licensed, I think the responsibility falls on the jumper.

[tigra 0]

If I'm not mistaken, the waiver I signed as a student and licensed jumper says I would be responsible. (also for repack costs) That said, I think its a judgement call on the DZO's part. I know I had an FXC fire (misfire) when I was still jumping rental gear, and I didn't have to pay for the repack. I might have had to pay for the freebag, but luckily a local brought it in about a week later. (and I did look for it too!)

[MB38 0]

I feel that the DZ should be responsible when we're talking about a student. The student didn't pack the malfunction, they simply recognized the mal and saved their life according to what they were taught. The chop is the DZ's fault [the packer's fault] and the student is out of that loop.

Off student status, it should be the responsibility of the individual who rented the equipment. It's their job to return the equipment in the condition that they received it in.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[rsibbald 0]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.... I still firmly believe that DZs should cover student chops....

However, most student malfunctions (when you include S/L) are caused by the students' body position, not bad packing.

[katzurki 0]

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The thought, "I can't afford to chop this", should never even enter the students head.

Wow, a beautifully formulated thought.

Thanks everybody for the answers. I'll post here to let you know how it all worked out. Currently we are hoping to find the canopy... although what good would it be after a week out in the elements...

[pash 0]

On my 25th jump I had a cutaway... It was actually my A-Liscense jump and i'm not sure if I got it when I left the plane or when my feet hit the ground.

Anyway, I watched the canopy float away. It was gone for 3 or 4 days in the woods. I hired Wild Bill to find it and he did. I paid Wild Bill $100 for his efforts which was the easiest $100 I ever spent.

I was calling the gear shop every day to see if anyone found it and spent hours in the woods myself. I was prepared to pay for the canopy and told them that. It never came to it and I'm not sure if they would have charged me but I was certainly ready to do so.

I rented it but it belonged to them. I lost their stuff so wouldn't I need to pay them back?

jason

[EricTheRed 0]

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An AFF student cuts away from a legitimate malfunction, the canopy is lost. What's the common course of action in a situation like this? Does the DZ just suck up the loss? Does it have the right to charge the student, fully or partially? What should the student do?

This is an actual question, not a what-if.

IMO: The DZ should eat the cost if it'sa student. (And should kick the spotters ass for a bad spot)

Flame on...

illegible usually

[EvilLurker 2]

Let's see:
The DZO selected the gear, assembled the gear, maintained the gear and packed the gear. The DZO supposedly decided on a rental price that would make enough profit to replace the gear as it wore out/was lost or damaged. In fact, if the DZO has several sets of student gear, they make a nice profit on the rent over a period of time.
Now they have a student cutaway and lose a main, it's suddenly the student's responsibility to pay for a new main canopy?
If a DZO did that to me, I'd ask for the rental records since the main was installed and break it down 25% main, 25% container, 25% reserve and 25% AAD after subtracting $5/jump for the pack job and $50 per 6 months for a reserve repack. I'm betting in 90% of the cases, the money from rental already paid for the main and the DZO would owe me money.
Know what I mean?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I'm just playing devil's advocate here.... I still firmly believe that DZs should cover student chops....

However, most student malfunctions (when you include S/L) are caused by the students' body position, not bad packing.

The AFF student's body position is the responsibility of the JM.
At my DZ students do not pay gear rental; it is included in the cost of the training program. I would never ask a student to pay for lost equipment. I would have a chat with the instructor, however, about their responsibilities when the student has a mal.

[billvon 2,400]

Commonly the DZ pays for it, but it really comes down to whatever you agreed to do with the DZO beforehand.

[dragon2 0]

At our DZ, if you rent student gear you don't have to pay for a repack/lost/damaged stuff. If you rent one of the demo rigs or rent from the gear shop, you do have to pay is something happens to the gear. I think the gear shop makes you pay half the costs but not sure on that.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[katzurki 0]

Er.. in this particular instance, the student in question was doing his AFF 4 or 5. It is generally assumed on our DZ you pay for any gear losses as soon as you graduate AFF.

Wish we had Wild Bills like that here. Usually after a cutaway it's a race between DZ'ers and villagers to see who gets the canopy first, and it's not a fact they will turn it in. I've heard a story about a farmer-type guy holding on to the canopy that drifted into his backyard. When confronted and asked why the hell he needed it, he said, "It makes a great warmth-keeper for dem greenhouses."

[aneblett 0]

I think that when gear is rented and lost due to a legitimate cutaway, and the renter has done due diligence to find the items that the DZ should eat the cost.

I would hope that some kind of insurance protects the DZO for when this happens but being that I am not a DZO I don't know.

I mean imagine the alternative.. "I can't afford to chop this, the wind might take the canopy into that swamp area over there and I will never find it... I'll just ride this down.."

If a student goes it it does far more than 1700$ in damage to the sport, and to the DZ rep in the public eye.

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[vdschoor 0]

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I think that when gear is rented and lost due to a legitimate cutaway, and the renter has done due diligence to find the items that the DZ should eat the cost.

"Do you want the extra insurance with this?"

Just playing devil's advocate again.. for students, I agree it should be covered by the DZO. For rental gear though.. it's a bit different..
You total a rental car.. unless you have the additional insurance.. you're gonna be paying a nice sum of money.. It should be the same kind of agreement for renting gear from a gear store / DZO.

So.. new twist..
Someone is looking to buy their first canopy.. they are looking for a 190 sized canopy, and I happen to jump one. The gear store doesn't have it, and asks me.. "can you let this guy / girl jump your 190 to see if they like it?"
Me.. being the dumbass that I am.. say.. "sure.. go ahead"

The guy / girl chops.. and loses my canopy.. who's gonna pay for a new one? Me? The Gear store? the guy / girl that cut away?

I think as soon as you're off student status and you are renting gear.. you are responsible for returning it.. if you can't.. you pay.. how much? that depends on the agreement you have with the person that rented you the canopy (or any other gear for that matter)

I am usually pretty easy with giving people gear to use.. but one of the first things I do say: You break it.. you bought it... I think that's fair.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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So.. new twist..
Someone is looking to buy their first canopy.. they are looking for a 190 sized canopy, and I happen to jump one. The gear store doesn't have it, and asks me.. "can you let this guy / girl jump your 190 to see if they like it?"
Me.. being the dumbass that I am.. say.. "sure.. go ahead"

The guy / girl chops.. and loses my canopy.. who's gonna pay for a new one? Me? The Gear store? the guy / girl that cut away?

Been there, done that. I've tried a gear. I've cut away the main. ...... I've bought the rest of the gear at the original price.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think that when gear is rented and lost due to a legitimate cutaway, and the renter has done due diligence to find the items that the DZ should eat the cost.

I think a lot of places go this way, even if the contract says the student pays for all. If said student doesn't make a good effort to search...

[pash 0]

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the student in question was doing his AFF 4 or 5.

my bad - I was thinking anything up to the liscense was a student... Every DZ needs a Wild Bill
jason