Hard Deck for C's and D's

[skypuppy 1]

Douggarr

It would be interesting to break down the price of a $25 jump ticket now to see how much goes to liability insurance. As with skiing, this has increased dramatically as the years have gone on, in part due to ambulance chasing tort lawyers. Bill Booth has said that he's spent tons of cash defending lawsuits. And I think most skydivers will agree that his innovations have saved many, many jumpers from their ash dive. I'm wondering how many of those attorneys could prove that his designs were flawed; likely, there was negligence involved in using the gear and not the manufacturing of it.

You should research the first decade of tandem jumping, then

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[DocPop 1]

fanya

I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Remster 24]

DocPop

***I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

And you get more of it if you track longer.

Remster

[DSE 3]

I feel 2.2K is a good hop n' pop altitude. Perhaps not for the first hop n' popper, but plenty good for an experienced skydiver, particularly swoopers. Getting out with a wingsuit at 3K is always fun too.

[Zlew 0]

thevasc21

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?

Me.

2K is no big deal... if you do it correctly with a very short delay you will be open by 1800 or 1900 feet. Remember, your opening sequence is mostly horizontal for for first few seconds of free fall and you have not accelerated vertically enough to eat any real altitude like you would at terminal. Pulling at 2K on a hop and pop will usually put you in the saddle higher than pulling at 2500 in freefall.

[matthewcline 0]

thevasc21

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?

Thousands of Skydivers, who have done it hundreds of times, with the right equipment.

Any and all SL Transition trained Skydivers are quite comfortable with it. AFF Trained tend not to be till they advance into another aspect of the sport.

USPA had no reason to change their rules/recommendations. Any and all Manufacturers who think raising the minimum altitudes are a good idea, should just do so with their user agreements, owners manuals, etc, and do so world wide.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[DougH 270]

thevasc21

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?

Depends on what I am jumping.

My 104 eliptical, well I would rather not. But if I have a larger less aggressive square I will happily do hop and pops from 2k all day if that is all we can get.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Amazon 7]

Remster

******I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

And you get more of it if you track longer.

IF you are jumping with people who actually learned how to track sometime in their vast years of experience. I have been on WAY too many formation skydives where some numbnuts that broke off at 4500 or higher is still right there with the base at 3000'

[fanya 3]

thevasc21

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?

2k is plenty

[fanya 3]

DocPop

***I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

It gives you both.

[jacketsdb23 45]

From my perspective as a competition canopy pilot, 2.2K is not any fun to deal with. I don't know many swoopers that I jump with that would routinely get out at 2.2K for training.

Last summer during some bad weather I got out decending from the Cessna around 2.7K. I pitched, was open, and had my RDS put away by about 1.5K. Just enough time to start my turn...i was fortunate to be exactly over the pond where I needed to be.

If 2.2K is fun for some people...have at it. Getting out at 2.2K with a high performance canopy is pushing it and I wouldn't recommend it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[michaelmullins 77]

Douggarr

It would be interesting to break down the price of a $25 jump ticket now to see how much goes to liability insurance.

Zero goes to liability insurance as there is no liability insurance available (at least in the USA) that covers anyone from bodily injury that a skydiver incurs.

[DocPop 1]

Remster

******I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

And you get more of it if you track longer.

You could track longer from the top (ie. start higher) rather than adding it onto the bottom end where you have less altitude to deal with bad spots, hard pulls, mals etc. as well as leaving yourself fewer options for slotting into the pattern.

The lower you start your canopy flight the fewer options you have - and that goes for main or reserve.

This pulling as low as you can get away with thing is just a symptom of the same disease that is killing people under good canopies; a dislike/disrespect for canopy flight.

People dirt dive their freefall, but very few off student status do so for their canopy flight. Pulling at 2,000, in the saddle by 1,200-1,500 is eating into altitude that you might need to save your life.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,400]

>Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?

The same people who think 2.5K is a good minimum pull altitude. A deployment in freefall at 2500 feet is roughly the same (in terms of working time if you have a problem) from a hop and pop at 2000 feet.

Indeed, given a choice I have sometimes chosen lower altitudes rather than higher ones for higher pressure demos. Less to go wrong.

[rwieder 0]

Remember This Video?

I remember them saying this was a couple of years old, but it is obviously still happening.

Richard

[nigel99 143]

DocPop

*********I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

And you get more of it if you track longer.

You could track longer from the top (ie. start higher) rather than adding it onto the bottom end where you have less altitude to deal with bad spots, hard pulls, mals etc. as well as leaving yourself fewer options for slotting into the pattern.

The lower you start your canopy flight the fewer options you have - and that goes for main or reserve.

This pulling as low as you can get away with thing is just a symptom of the same disease that is killing people under good canopies; a dislike/disrespect for canopy flight.

People dirt dive their freefall, but very few off student status do so for their canopy flight. Pulling at 2,000, in the saddle by 1,200-1,500 is eating into altitude that you might need to save your life.

In saying this you are ignoring the needs of a huge number of skydivers. Our top end is restricted to about 14k, which gives you approximately 60 seconds of freefall to break-off at 4.5-5k to track. Try learning 8 or 16way skydives with less freefall time than this - it gets really ineffective, quite quickly.

I'm sure the situation is worse for freefliers with their shorter freefall times.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 143]

Great, so in the interests of safety and progress we ignore the root cause and press on forwards

Canopies are getting more aggressive, so getting into line twists is easier. Canopies are faster so collisions are also harder to avoid/easier to get into. We want nice soft openings on mains and reserves so they open slower. We want nice freefly friendly rigs that don't open as easily.

The issue isn't AAD activation altitudes, the reason they need to rise is because our equipment if becoming more about fun and form than functional safety. It's completely fucked up, and we the customer/jumper are to blame. At this rate of progress it's going to be pretty ironic if BASE ends up safer than skydiving.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[fanya 3]

DocPop

*********I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

And you get more of it if you track longer.

You could track longer from the top (ie. start higher) rather than adding it onto the bottom end where you have less altitude to deal with bad spots, hard pulls, mals etc. as well as leaving yourself fewer options for slotting into the pattern.

The lower you start your canopy flight the fewer options you have - and that goes for main or reserve.

This pulling as low as you can get away with thing is just a symptom of the same disease that is killing people under good canopies; a dislike/disrespect for canopy flight.

People dirt dive their freefall, but very few off student status do so for their canopy flight. Pulling at 2,000, in the saddle by 1,200-1,500 is eating into altitude that you might need to save your life.

Respect for canopy flight? You still jumping a small loaded elliptical canopy above your skill level? I seem to remember quite a few threads and posts on the subject.

Just because you want to pull higher don't force the decision on everyone. Some actually need the extra time for separation on big ways.

I like the bottom end of a skydive as much as the top end. If we are on a long spot I'll pull high to make it back, if we are dead nuts over the DZ I'll suck it low. You like to swoop, I like the bottom end. We all poke the bear in our own way.

[DocPop 1]

Fair enough. You make a good point and I'll acknowledge it. Provided your kicks (or mine) don't interfere with anyone else's - have at it.

Thanks for a reasoned argument. If I pull high and you pull low then we have no problem as long as we communicate and stay apart horizontally.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[catfishhunter 1]

The people they possibly hope it would effect it won't matter to anyway. Only people it could possibly effect are demo jumpers or full loads of hop and pops otherwise those pulling low will continue and as it has been said there are no altitude cops writing tickets and anyone that can tell if you pitched at 2500 or 2000 from the ground is full of shit.

I'm gonna pull when it's safe and on a 4 way 3500 works for me on a 30+ ways my fat ass will be open before my hard deck

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Ron 7]

DocPop

***I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...

If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

You have clearly have never done a big way skydive. Sometimes when you are on the same group... The best you can do is track till the people around you deploy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jiggs 0]

I think that this is right thing to do. I also think that this may reduce some fatalities.

I agree DaveL; within a few years it won’t be an issue, this will now just be part of the culture in skydiving. Absolutely part of the problem is people not having the right gear choices / mentality for what they are doing. Sure we can say training is going to be the answer, but will anything actually happen? What is more likely, a simply rule change to affect behaviour vs. some new form of training approach to change behaviour (that is not recognised as a potential problem)?

Do I think that H&Ps (or openings) can be done safely from this height or less – of course. I have many openings below 1800 and a number of exits below 1500. But I think that it is much safer to have a bit more margin for error or mucking around. I do not miss my old home dropzones get out at 2k and save $2! Now I prefer more time to deal with something exciting (if I need to) and being able to fly high performance wings.

Personally I think one of the issues that I see in skydiving is old farts getting on new technology and treating it as if it is the 1970s. Our wings have fundamentally changed, performance has taken a massive step forward across the board but we want to behave in the same way? Remember when a Stiletto 120 was the hottest canopy getting around? Now we see so many high performance wings in general use across dropzones. Physics has not changed, our adoption of this technology has meant that we still have legacy rules in play.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With Demo jumps in Australia you can be exit/open by 1500 if you have the right license (Display B). The minimum opening height for experienced jumpers is 1800 (and something higher I think for novices). So perhaps the approach could be something similar for the US approach – maybe tie it in with the PRO rating?

Ohh and I call bullshit on any competitive swoopers wanting to go from 2200 or so. From memory, we can go as low as 2500 for comp passes (solo passes) but from past experience it does not work well. Fun wings, high initiation points and RDS means that this is way too much hassle and negatively impacts performance. E.g. normal 450 initiation height is at 1050 to 1400 depending on which wing I use. Also having malfunctions on these canopies can get pretty hectic, so more height is better.

If the rule change helps drive the cultural change and a bit more safety for some people, so be it.

Get 2 seconds less freefall and get on with it (besides once you get into swooping you realise that freefall is so 1990s anyway! :-D)

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[Scrumpot 1]

ozzy13

***

Quote

(c) A parachutist may drift over that airport with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if the parachutist is at least 2,000 feet above that airport's traffic pattern

Psssst............... what is the traffic pattern altitude?

im guessing the ground lol

Bad guess.

Since you apparently don't read, or just choose to ignore your PM's, and just ignorantly continue to plod along - I'll go ahead and put what I sent to you DAYS ago, now out to you (and others, so as to dispel your misinformation) here:

------------------
RE: FAR Part 105.23 (c)
You have mis-read/misinterpreted this section.

FAR's have no input/bearing on minimum parachute OPENING altitudes. Just FYI - what is being referred to in FAR Part 105 is canopy FLIGHT altitudes, and being referenced in regards to an airport's PATTERN ALTITUDE & being 2,000ft above that.

"Pattern Altitude" is the designated altitude AGL in which aircraft are allowed (instructed) to pass OVER mid-field of that airport. In other words, and as an EXAMPLE - if an airport's designated PATTERN ALTITUDE is 1,500ft (typical) over the field (AGL - usually still published for pilots in MSL, and for us, would need "extrapolation"), then we (our parachutes) can only "drift over the field/airport designated pattern area - at 3,500 AGL or ABOVE.

The FAR (and no FAR) has any direct correlation to, or bearing on, our minimum pack-tray openings, and is not germane to the conversation (thread) in which you posted.

Just "FYI", and to help you out (and others, where you continue to purport this out in the public domain) a bit with that.

Hope this does/has.

Blue Skies!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[DocPop 1]

Ron

You have clearly have never done a big way skydive. Sometimes when you are on the same group... The best you can do is track till the people around you deploy.

I haven't and I likely never will.

So what happens when two or more people think like you suggest and nobody pulls? Keep tracking and hope for a big pile of cardboard boxes?!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[pchapman 261]

Jiggs

Iit won’t be an issue, this will now just be part of the culture in skydiving.

Which is why the rule isn't needed!

The general culture is to open higher; it isn't like newbies are all clamoring to pull at 2000' as soon as they get the right license.

The current rule allows flexibility instead of forcing a rule that is appropriate for the majority of people in most typical cases.... but not for other cases.

It's a bit like mandatory AAD rules. Why force the issue when just about everyone knows they are a good idea and wants them?

People seem to like to oversimplify issues. Instead of a reasoned discussion on what is a MINIMUM vs. what is GOOD in different circumstances, they want to see one rule for everyone, all the time. (Although at least they distinguish by license level.)

(In practice, I'm usually a high puller like most people these days -- after all, other people break off high, turbine spots aren't perfect, and one needs altitude to set up for a swoop. But on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to hop and pop at 2200' [Canadian minimum] with an accuracy canopy, or smoke it down to 2200' and dump straight out of the track with my crossbraced canopy at 2.1 loading...)