Go- arounds

[skinnyshrek 0]

Why do some pilots insist that you exit the plane instead of doing a go around? I know it burns fuel but i have been on some loads that the pilot gets pissed if you all don't exit the aircraft on one pass.
If you have a load full of students and tandems, sometimes you need a go around. Instead, some people get screamed at for not leaving.
Just curious as to why you all get pissed off if you NEED to do a go-around.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[matthewcline 0]

I asked a pilot this very question, his answer, "I get paid by the load, and if your still here at 13.5K and I have to spend 1 minute going around, it adds up to a loss in pay for me"

I asked another pilot a simular question and his answer was the DZO got mad at the loss of a load or two over the day and lost revenue for the DZ.

But it looks like it is a taboo subject .

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 3]

If you got paid by the load and not by the hour, how would that affect your point of view?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bob.dino 0]

ATC clearance. Our DZ is in controlled airspace above 7,500ft, and big jets are vectored through all the time. Diverting a full 747 on approach to Sydney because you didn't like the spot won't make you popular.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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If you got paid by the load and not by the hour, how would that affect your point of view?

What about the pilots that are paid by the hour. So a students safety is less important than a pilot/owners fuel cost!

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Icon134 0]

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If you got paid by the load and not by the hour, how would that affect your point of view?

probably baised on the fact that the quicker the pilot gets jumpers out the sooner he/she can get back to the ground and the more loads he/she can do in a day.

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[quade 3]

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So a students safety is less important than a pilot/owners fuel cost!

I never said that, I said there was an affected viewpoint.

While I truly believe that 99% of all skydiving operator's number 1 priority is safety, skydiving ops run on a very low profit margin and an extra 2 minutes of go arounds over the course of a day adds up to perhaps and entire extra load's worth of time.

Make sense?

All of that said . . . I do NOT believe ANYONE should EVER be told to jump out. Permission should be granted. Jumping should never be commanded. And THAT said, permission can also be taken away. Bypass your permissable time and the pilot -might- have the option to deny you further permission and just return to base.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slug 1]

Hi SS

From what we've seen Go-O's are DZ/ACO specific.Skydive city
OTOH some DZO's/ACO's are into "100% efficency": Jumpers get packed into airplanes like sardines, No Go arounds, minimize's the amount of fuel & Tach time/jumper.

I think it's obvious who these 100% operators are. As long as the jumpers that get stuck going last out/bad spot,continue to accept this level of service it will continue.

And that a fact jack

R.I.P.

[popsjumper 2]

I guess you are assuming a go-around on every load...that's an extremely rare day, sir.
Go-around when actually needed? Pilot's an asshat for putting $$$ above jumper safety...especially with respect to students.

And the number of actually-needed go-arounds will much more likely than not be a non-issue with respect to the number loads put up in the day.

Get real.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[squirrel 0]

Probably wouldn't be an issue if the damn teams would not spend all day getting into some trick exit position.

but then again, this weekend the teams exited at 10,500, so once we got up to 12,500, we had less people in the plane, so no go arounds.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[btucker 0]

One thing to consider is if you do go around is how high the people on the last pass will be opening. Some, but not all DZs have established goaround procedures to reduce this risk i.e. different run in.

As Bob.Dino said if you want a go-around at our DZ – quite often this will mean going around manifest to get on the next [available] load ;-) Seeing how the other half live @ Perris, when just a toggle on the switch makes the a/c auto-magically go around. That switch saved me hours of walking...

Blue Dreams Benno

[tdog 0]

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Probably wouldn't be an issue if the damn teams would not spend all day getting into some trick exit position.

but then again, this weekend the teams exited at 10,500, so once we got up to 12,500, we had less people in the plane, so no go arounds.

I bet one team of 5 or 9 (4 or 8 way with video) takes less time to "trick" than two groups of 2 or 4 groups of 8....

I am always concerned when we have lots of solos, not lots of teams...

[bob.dino 0]

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One thing to consider is if you do go around is how high the people on the last pass will be opening. Some, but not all DZs have established goaround procedures to reduce this risk i.e. different run in.

Additionally, multi-plane ops complicate things significantly. How easy is it to get a go-around at Perris or Eloy on a busy weekend?

[DanDruff 0]

As a jump pilot I have absolutley no problem doing a go around when it is needed. It dosent bother me one bit and the extra minute or so that it takes is not really that big a deal. But I have been extemley pissed when Ive had only 6 people in the caravan and I got some yahoo telling me to go back around.

[sunshine 2]

Skydive Chicago is AWESOME about doing go rounds when they're needed. It's nice to know Rook is more concerned with the safety of the jumpers than a few dollars in burned fuel.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[diverds 0]

I come from a club dropzone where the pilots don't get paid so efficiency has never been what bothers me about go-arounds. My concern with them has always been what if someone in the first group opens high? Now you are in a situation where if you do a quick turn around you are dumping the next group on top of the first. I've always tried to reduce this risk by offsetting the second jump run but what if someone opened high and then flew off the wind-line? It has always made me nervous and I tend to encourage jumpers not to do go-arounds unless it is absolutely necessary.

-Dave

Skydive Radio

[billvon 2,400]

>What about the pilots that are paid by the hour. So a students
>safety is less important than a pilot/owners fuel cost!

?? Not at all. If you don't like the spot, and the pilot won't do a goaround - land with the plane. If he _will_ go around, and just yells at you, then deal with it. Goarounds cost DZ's and pilots money, and if there's no reason for them, expect to get some grief.

[AggieDave 6]

Go arounds should obviously be granted. However, if there are groups of people that consistantly cause go arounds due to a lack of understanding of proper exit seperation (counting to 10 then climbing out and doing an exit count when there should have been 7 seconds between group's exits) then sure, I can understand getting annoyed and helping people learn.

Although, putting students or low time solo jumpers in a situation where they dont' want to pull high due to students and tandem behind them and they don't want to land off, is dangerous.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skinnyshrek 0]

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>What about the pilots that are paid by the hour. So a students
>safety is less important than a pilot/owners fuel cost!

?? Not at all. If you don't like the spot, and the pilot won't do a goaround - land with the plane. If he _will_ go around, and just yells at you, then deal with it. Goarounds cost DZ's and pilots money, and if there's no reason for them, expect to get some grief.

So what you saying bill is, Then anyone who doesn't want to jump on one pass if it may cause some danger should land with the plane because the pilot doesn't want to do a go around..Yeah that's smart! I am sure if the plane is full of tandems and students the dz isn't losing that much money for one go around.
Also, if the spot is shitty and you want it changed do you also ride the plane down?

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[The_Don 0]

Damn good question..

You mean like...

You only get one chance to do this right!!

Don..

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[tr027 0]

Pilot is totally justified in being pissed if the go-around was caused by somebody at the back of the plane taking too long to verify the spot or otherwise holding up the load and blowing it for everybody else. If the load is simply too big (spreads past the useable window due to proper exit separation) then it shouldn't be a problem.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[JohnMitchell 14]

I pay good money to jump out of an airplane, spotted in a safe area of the sky in which to jump. If I am made to jump from a spot that is unsafe, I am being cheated as a customer. If I am forced to land in the plane because I would not take an unsafe spot, I am being cheated as a customer. If there continues to be problems, the causes need to be examined and fixed. In the meantime, some pilot better not chew me out for not jumping into an unsafe situation. I have been put into the trees before.

[AFFI 0]

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I pay good money to jump out of an airplane, spotted in a safe area of the sky in which to jump. If I am made to jump from a spot that is unsafe, I am being cheated as a customer. If I am forced to land in the plane because I would not take an unsafe spot, I am being cheated as a customer. If there continues to be problems, the causes need to be examined and fixed. In the meantime, some pilot better not chew me out for not jumping into an unsafe situation. I have been put into the trees before.

I feel ya John, and I feel the same way.

Something else to consider though, it is possible that a jumper might not feel comfortable with a spot that is in fact acceptable. That is where it might be a topic of heated debate because we are bringing into the equation differing human perspectives. Likely, most DZO’s will side with the pilots perspective, no?

_

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[bofh 0]

At our club DZ, we have some simple rules:
The first group exits 10 seconds after green light (first sanity checking the spot and looking for planes of course), the last groups go down with the plane if they don't want to jump off. Since we started this, our economy has improved, people landing out has decreased and we get to do an extra load per day.
The ground crew constantly adjust the spot and the pilot gets new coordinates. In total a big win and safety has improved. So far I don't know of anyone going down with the plane because they thought they would land out.

Of course we do make exceptions if the sanity check of the spot doesn't work out (really rare) or a load full of students where we don't want them at the extremes of the jumprun.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Something else to consider though, it is possible that a jumper might not feel comfortable with a spot that is in fact acceptable. That is where it might be a topic of heated debate because we are bringing into the equation differing human perspectives. Likely, most DZO’s will side with the pilots perspective, no?

Interesting point, and I'll agree that that situation is probably more common than an actually hazardous spot. At our DZ our pilot turns off the exit light when a jump run has gone too long, signaling you to sit down and wait for the go around. It's usually just the tandems left on the plane at that point, and you certainly don't want them landing out.

It's not too hard to fly back from a long spot, but up here in the Northwest, with all the tall trees, it' can be a real bitch finding your cutaway when you're really far away.