Does the Cessna 182 Still Dominate Skydiving?

[tombuch 0]

There is another thread called “Twin Otter Production Restarted” that begins by detailing the new production plans for Twin Otters, and then gets into identifying all the Twin Otters that are flying jumpers in the United States today. At this point it’s an impressive and growing list of 41 different airplanes based all over the country.

According to USPA there are roughly 300 drop zones in the United States (>250 Group Members), and about 30,618 individual USPA members. That means there is on average, one Twin Otter for every 7.3 drop zones, and one Twin Otter for every 746 USPA members. Drop zones also have a variety of other aircraft, including turbine powered Porters, Casa’s, King Air’s, Caravan’s, piston Cessna 182’s, and many more (including piston and turbine variations of the same basic airframes).

It used to be taken as gospel that most jump planes were Cessna 182’s, and that most jumps were made from 182’s. I’m wondering if that is still that case, or are most jumps now made from other airplanes, and is it possible that most jumps are now made from turbine aircraft. Does the Cessna 182 still dominate our sport?

‘Back in the day a turbine aircraft was a special treat. Jumpers had to travel long distances for special events to leap from a Twin Otter, or any other turbine. Cessna 180/182’s were unarguably the mainstay of the jump fleet, with a few DZ’s flying the Cessna 206, and just a handful of really big DZ’s flying the DC-3. It was easy to assert that most jump planes were 182’s, and that most of our jumps were made from 182’s. We were a piston nation.

Times have changed.

The fleet of turbines is growing, we have a much wider distribution of turbine DZ’s, and the lift capacity of these aircraft (jumpers per load, and loads per hour) is much higher than the Cessna 182. It might well be that we are now a turbine nation.

I am confident that in my part of the country (New York Tri State), turbine drop zones log far more jumps than Cessna drop zones, and together we might even fly more turbine loads than the regional piston fleet. My DZ does have a Cessna 182 for occasional jumps, but jumping the 182 is rare, and on a load-to-load basis it carries only four jumpers against 21 in the Twin Otters. Put another way, it would take five loads in a Cessna 182 to equal just one in a Twin Otter. Just a few years ago we were the only turbine drop zone in the region, but now there are many others, and our jump numbers dwarf the small Cessna DZ’s.

How does this play out around the rest of the country? Do you think most jumps still are made from the Cessna 182 and the piston fleet, or have turbines taken over? What does your logbook say? If you review the logbooks of traveling jumpers what do you see in the Aircraft box? Any thoughts?

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[michalm21 0]

I haven't jumped 182 yet.... I feel like I'm missing out

[Andrewwhyte 1]

In the province of Alberta we have exclusively Cessnas (206 &182) across 4 DZs (soon to be 5). It is still a close call as to whether more jumps are made out these planes or out of Twin Otters. The Kapowson Otter is in Kamloops for the 24th of May weekend, and provincial championships somewhere in the province on July 1st. Many Albertans also go to the two boogies in the Vancouver area that use the KPOW Otter. Then there is Lost Prairie, The Canadian Invasion in Eloy, and various camps in Eloy and Paris. If you add up all the jumps Albertans make out of Otters over the year it would be close even though there is only an Otter in the province for one weekend a year.

[slotperfect 7]

We have two multi-place turbines at Raeford (Twin Otter, PAC 750XL), but we still have a 182 as well. It doesn't get used as much, but it does get used.

Arrive Safely

John

[howardwhite 5]

In the five New England states that currently have DZs, there are 11 total:

--Three Dzs have Cessnas and turbines (two Otters and one Caravan);
--One DZ has Otter only;
--Seven DZs have Cessnas only (two of them tandem-only).
--New Hampshire has no DZ (but it has a tunnel).

Cessnas are mostly 182; couple of 206.

It goes without saying that the vast majority of jumps in the region are from turbines.

HW

[pincheck 0]

well no turbines in Scotland only 206's and a 185 but the dz all 2 are still only part time weekend operations. Don't know if that makes a difference. My nearest turbine dz is a 3.5 hour drive away over the border to England.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[countzero 7]

here in Texas of the 17 DZs listed in the database on this site, 10 are Cessna DZs.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[adventurechick 0]

I jumped out of a Cesna twice so I could do hop n' pops. I don't see them much here in florida.

PMS #449 TPM #80 Muff Brother #3860
SCR #14705 Dirty Sanchez #233

[crotalus01 0]

Never jumped a C182 but we have a C195 that flies several times a year. Fun plane to jump.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[mnskydiver688 0]

Being from the Midwest I have always jumped a 182. I visited Deland and made some jumps from their Otter. I liked the change. Although, the plane was just as crowded and didn't really impress me with the climb rate. The Cessna that we jump here has an oversized engine so we get to 12k in about 12-14 minutes. I also just like the atmosphere at a Cessna DZ. I am guessing as far as jump numbers go the turbines beat out the Cessna's, but the Cessna's got the sport where it is today.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[mangledspoon 0]

I think there is one Twin Otter in the whole of Australia... I have only been in cessnas, a caravan and an islander. Which I think is the extent of plane types in my entire state.

[grue 1]

Even though my home DZ was a Cessna DZ for 2/3 of my skydiving career, I have more turbine jumps than Cessna jumps. We have a 182 and a 206, but Mullins came in for our summer boogie each year, and I also went to Eloy for the Holiday Boogie in 05. Being able to pound out 8-10 jumps a day does wonders for making up for 3-4 in a day with Cessnas.

That having been said, the bat-hang is still my favourite exit

cavete terrae.

[peckerhead 0]

Tom, you are fortunate to have a turbine at your DZ

The reality is most of the small dz's in America are Cessna drop zones. We are the backbone of the sport and we are the reason the sport still exists.

We like to go to boogies and it is fun to jump out of big planes. But afterwards we go back to our Dz and jump our Cessnas.

We piss in the porta potty and drink beer out of the fridge.




I respect your posts but it seems to me you are out of touch with reality.

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

I think there is one Twin Otter in the whole of Australia...

Past tense now.

Most turbine jumps in Australia are out of Caravans or PAC 750XLs.

[PhreeZone 15]

I don't think he is out of touch at all. There are 11 DZ's in Ohio. 3 of them run Otters, 1 runs a King Air and another runs another type of a turbine. Thats almost half of the DZ's in the state that run turbines of some type. More jumps are don at two of the DZ's then the rest of the DZ's cessna loads combined in a weekend. There is no doubt that there are a ton more turbine jumps happening then Cessna jumps. I don't have many 182 jumps, only about 75-100 but its enough to know that the turbine DZ's just put out more jumps in a single load then 182 will do in an entire morning.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JohnMitchell 14]

C-182s are slower, more cramped, and noisier than any of the turbines, but they beat staying on the ground. My last 100 jumps have probably been 98 turbine, 2 Cessna. There are 5 DZs in Western Washington, and 4 have turbines, either owned or leased, and the 5th is planning to get a Caravan.

I spent too many years at all Cessna DZs, crawling to 8500, waiting forever for my load to be called, spending all day just to get 3-4 jumps. I don't like Twin Beeches. I've got a lot of jumps from them, and they're noisy and dangerous, and I don't jump them anymore. A DC-3 is cool for nostalgia, a very comfortable ride and I love the purr of those big radials, but it's still 30 minutes or so to altitude. A turbine DC-3 like the USFS has would get me excited. That would be a big, fast ride.

[peckerhead 0]

Quote

I don't have many 182 jumps, only about 75-100 but its enough to know that the turbine DZ's just put out more jumps in a single load then 182 will do in an entire morning.

In other words, you don't have a clue. You are a pup but you mean well.

I rest my case.

[CornishChris 5]

I started to realise I was spoilt at Empuria when disappointed to get manifested on the Otter not the Beech 99...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Tom, you are fortunate to have a turbine at your DZ
The reality is most of the small dz's in America are Cessna drop zones. We are the backbone of the sport and we are the reason the sport still exists.
We like to go to boogies and it is fun to jump out of big planes. But afterwards we go back to our Dz and jump our Cessnas.
We piss in the porta potty and drink beer out of the fridge.
I respect your posts but it seems to me you are out of touch with reality.

I started at a Cessna DZ, and still jump at them every once in a while. Cessna's are fun, and as somebody else posted, the bat hang exit is very cool, and aside from superfloating on a DC-3, is probably my favorite exit. I'm not knocking Cessna's or Cessna DZ's.

I have always thought that Cessna's are the backbone of our sport, and until just a few days ago, if anybody had suggested otherwise I would have argued strongly that the Cessna is the most common jump plane, most loads are flown with Cessna's, and we make most of our jumps from them. I thought my home DZ with three Twin Otters was an anomaly.

The post I referenced that listed 41 different Twin Otter in the United States really caught my attention, and made me question what I thought I already knew. Cessna's definitely brought us to where we are, and they are still very common (even many turbine DZ's have them), but I think it's possible that in the year 2007 we may be flying more turbine loads and making more jumps from turbines. I wondered if that was true and sought the opinion of others here.

From what I've heard so far I think it is safe to say that in the United States the Cessna 182 is no longer the unquestioned backbone of the fleet. Even in my area Cessna DZ's still outnumber turbine DZ's, but the lift capacity of the turbines may give them an advantage in loads flown and jump numbers. And the intensity of turbine based commercial tandem programs in urban areas may mean that more people are now introduced to the sport with a turbine. Plus, many Cessna jumpers travel to turbine DZ's, while fewer turbine jumpers make jumps at Cessna DZ's.

I'm not yet sure that we make more total jumps from turbines, but at the very least it is close.

That's a huge change, and it is sometimes tough for a guy like me with more than 25 years in the sport to question conventional wisdom, or to see subtle changes like that. One of the really cool things about Dropzone.com is that we can share our thoughts with others and get a real sense of what is happening around the country/world. We can challenge each others assumptions here, and that's a good thing. We may get shot down, we may leave the discussion unchanged, but at least we can ask questions in an open forum and hear a different opinion than what we might get around the local firepit.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Scoop 0]

Quote

I started to realise I was spoilt at Empuria when disappointed to get manifested on the Otter not the Beech 99...

Lol, yeah, I got the arse one day when I was manifested on a Porter lift . Was so used to the King Air by that time. Then when I got back home it was either a Beaver, Islander or Cherokee as aircraft of choice. Thank god summer is here and the DZs have wheeled out the better aircraft for the season

[Eule 0]

Caution: low jump numbers here.

I suspect that if you put the question as "what aircraft type makes up the majority of the US sport skydiving fleet", the answer is (still) "Cessna 182". I don't have hard data; this is based on a hunch.

If you put the question as "what aircraft type are the majority of sport jumps made from", then it's probably an Otter. It's pretty simple... 23 people on a 20-25 minute cycle versus four people on a ~30 minute cycle.

When I started jumping in the summer of 2005, the (weekend only) DZ had just one 182. A really good Saturday in the summer would be something like 20 or 22 loads, with Sunday maybe a few less - 18 or 20. A ballpark estimate is that about two-thirds of those loads had four jumpers and the rest had three. At 42 loads total, that's (28 x 4) + (14 x 3) or 154 jumps in a total time of around 21 hours. If you fill up an Otter all the way, it would take 7 loads in a total time of about 2.5 hours to get the same number of jumps; at two-thirds full it would take 11 loads and about 4 hours.

Another way to look at it: This number is probably a few years old, but I read that in a year when the USPA had about 30,000 jumpers, those jumpers made a total of about 3,000,000 skydives in that year. If all of those jumps were from Otters, that's 130,000 full loads, or an average of 2500 loads a week, or 356 loads a day. If there's 300 DZs, each one would have to average 8.3 Otter loads a week, or 1.2 Otter loads a day. If all of those were from 182s, that's 750,000 full loads - 14400 a week - 2100 a day. Those 300 DZs would each have to average about 47 C182 loads a week or 6.8 C182 loads a day. (This is an overview and doesn't account at all for weekend-only DZs, bad weather, etc.)

(Somewhere in here I start to think that I should put all this stuff on charts and graphs and run for President... :) )

This gets into anecdotal evidence, but I live in Tulsa. Excluding boogies and special events, if I want to jump a turbine, the closest few places that I know of are:
- Dallas (~4 hour drive; I know they have a regular turbine)
- Kansas City (~5 hour drive; MAYBE - not sure of the latest status on the turbine there)
- St Louis (~5 hour drive) BSBD
- Tennesse (~6.5 hours)
Beyond that, probably south Texas, Colorado and Illinois, but those are getting up into the 8-10 hour drive range.

I guess I don't have any definitive conclusion, but maybe the extreme cases calculated above will help people who have a better "feel" for how many loads actually go up to say "1.2 Otters/DZ/day is too low" or "6.8 C-182s/DZ/day is too high" or whatever.

Caution: low jump numbers here.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.