There is a cost for everything.

[diablopilot 2]

If you get signed off by a USPA instructor as having shown the ability to pack, then there is nothing else to be done.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[scottjaco 0]

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Jumpers who complain about the costs of skydiving usually get little sympathy from me as they seem to be the "entitlement generation" types.

One thing you need to accept is that you made a decision to pursue a career in a field that is not very lucrative.

[Legs 0]

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It's all about paying it forward right? A lot of people helped me 'for free' and for that I like helping newbies with packing or whatever I can in order to give the same favor that somebody gave me in order to get to where I'm at today.

But then again, I've never demanded help or got pissed off if somebody said they were too busy to put their livelyhood on hold and run over to hook me up.

Oooh I agree with this

To everyone who is upset by those asking for a hand.........
You have chosen to make money out of our Hobby. We can learn to pack, rig, coach ect ect. Difference is that it is our hobby and we do it for fun. You are making money when others (mainly friends) will do these small jobs for beer. Don't be upset when people don't realise its your living, just remember you are living the dream, and are in a position we mere hobbyists dream about.

Thank you for your understanding

With love in Christ

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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"TANSTAAFL" said Mr. Heinlein, meaning "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Jumpers who complain about the costs of skydiving usually get little sympathy from me as they seem to be the "entitlement generation" types.

For example. There are a couple ways to learn how to pack.

1. Make friends, they will probably help you out. But it will take time and effort, and you might have to listen carefuly and be interested in learning. Maybe practice and do some studying, and be willing to accept some critique.

2. Pay someone $50 to $100 to spend 4 to 8 hours with you.

Nothing is EVER free. Just because it doesn't take money doesn't mean you are not paying for it.

Wow! You're sounding a bit like Sparky there DP.


Anyway, you forgot one...

3) Be a hot female with huge hooters and you'll not have any trouble finding someone to help you pack... for free... around pretty much any DZ you'll ever set foot on.

[Elisha 1]

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*tries to imagine JP as shy*

Oh for the good old days.

Well, you know, when I saw him a month ago, I expected him to be all like this a**hole n' sh*t. But he was actually rather nice. I was like, so disappointed.

[diablopilot 2]

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Jumpers who complain about the costs of skydiving usually get little sympathy from me as they seem to be the "entitlement generation" types.

One thing you need to accept is that you made a decision to pursue a career in a field that is not very lucrative.

You miss the point entirely.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[scottjaco 0]

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You miss the point entirely.

I don't think I did.

My point was to nickel & dime people is pointless.

That extra $5 you charge for a closing loop along with the $10 you charge to let someone plug a firewire into your camera isn't going to get you any closer to that 40 acres and a mule. So why bother?

[davelepka 4]

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My point was to nickel & dime people is pointless

First off, it's not pointless. If you charge $5 for a closing loop, and replace 100 closing loops a year, that's $500.

But that's not even the point. The point is that if you provide and install a closing loop for a guy, the guy should reach for his wallet, no questions asked. If you choose to let it go, and say, 'No problem' that's your choice, but the guy should be ready willing and able to pay.

It's the guys who will just try to say 'Thanks' and walk away with just that, or when you say 'That's $5' give you a hard time. That's the problem.

If you want to give away everything you own, and work for free all year, that's YOUR choice, as it should be. When a guy just wants stuff for free, he's trying to make it HIS choice, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let anyone make those kinds of choices for me, let alone help them with anything.

Shit, I wouldn't piss on that guy if he was in fire. Actually I would, but I would make sure it wasn't enough to put the fire out, so now he's on fire and covered in piss.

[airtwardo 6]

....so now he's on fire and covered in piss.

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And I'm here to tell ya, in Vegas THAT ain't free either!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Kiki32 1]

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3) Be a hot female with huge hooters and you'll not have any trouble finding someone to help you pack... for free... around pretty much any DZ you'll ever set foot on.

I have small hooters and I still got a free packing course.

I see what davelepka is saying though. Expecting things for free is just plain wrong. I wouldve gladly paid my friend for the packing class and I would gladly pay 5 bucks for a closing loop. This sport is basically about saving your life and IMHO you cant put a price on your life. Thats just how I see it.

Poetry don't work on whores.

[rehmwa 2]

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I would gladly pay 5 bucks for a closing loop.

Pay $5 for a fid and roll of line and make all you want.

$5 for something that takes about a minute is out of line. Including a closing loop as part of paid service isn't.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[2shay 0]

I think that $5 for a closing loop is retarted, although I know that was not your point. Skydiving is expensive enough as is we do not need to nickel and dime each other anymore than need be. My point is I wouldn't make yourself so accessible to everyone who wants stuff for free. Or maybe say hey I don't have any closing loops, or maybe just say you really aren't in the mood to fool around with it. I am sure you already know that. I just get sick and tired of people always thinking of "how can I make a quick buck off this guy" It is quite needless. I think that a lot of people have taken an attitude of, well I make fifty an hour at work so I should get at least fifty an hour doing this repack or whatever the case may be. Ones job outside of skydiving has no bearing on what skydiving related items or work costs. THis is directed at everyone not at you alone so don't take it the wrong way, I just feel that it needs to be said

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[Peej 0]

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You miss the point entirely.

I don't think I did.

My point was to nickel & dime people is pointless.

That extra $5 you charge for a closing loop along with the $10 you charge to let someone plug a firewire into your camera isn't going to get you any closer to that 40 acres and a mule. So why bother?

I think professional skydivers know they're never going to make a million from their chosen career, they do what they do for the love of the sport. That said they still need to put food on the table at the end of the day, and not charging for something impacts on that. And it works the same for everybody that works on the DZ be they packers, video guys or coaches.

I film tandems on a weekends only DZ and i have a job that i do during the week that pays relatively well, so when someone comes up to me and asks me if they can buy a DVD from me and if i can help them put some footage onto it, i'll never ask for money, and to their credit most of them say "how much do i owe you?" when we're done. To which i reply, "no charge, just buy me a beer at the end of the day."

But there are still the odd few that walk up and ask if i can help them and don't offer anything in return, like DVD's just grow on trees, that pisses me off. And even though i won't demand money, i'll still say "no worries, i drink Heineken" when they leave my edit suite. (This would piss me off enormously if i was trying to make a living from the sport and you can be damn sure that i would be demanding money)

However, because of my situation i try to carry the "pay it forward" thing over to every aspect of my time on the DZ. I'm there earning money, so i make damn sure that i tip in the bar and canteen when i pay my bill at the end of the weekend. This kids working behind the counters aren't there cos they like it.

I also only ever use the same packer and he will often replace a closing loop at no charge, or switch out canopies for me without asking for anything, at first i used to ask him how much i owed him for the job and every time he'd say "no charge" so now i make sure that when we settle up at the end of the day i pay at least a dollar more than the going packing rate.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[billvon 2,400]

>$5 for something that takes about a minute is out of line.

An old woman has an antique grandfather clock she's treasured for years. One day it starts running very slowly, and then just plain stops. She calls a clock guy. He refers her to an old watchmaker who specializes in such things.

He comes over, takes the back off the clock, pokes around, then stares at it for about five minutes. Then he takes a screwdriver and turns one screw a quarter turn. Voila! The clock is fixed, and starts telling accurate time again.

The man hands the woman a bill - $20.

"$20?" the woman exclaims. "You just turned one screw! It costs $20 to turn one screw?"

"It was five cents to turn the screw" he tells her "and $19.95 to know which screw to turn."

I'm all for teaching people how to make and replace closing loops. I'd be happy to do it if someone asks me. Heck, it's pretty easy to replace lower brake lines, replace slinks and slider bumpers, swap out canopies, swap out risers etc etc.

But if someone doesn't want to be bothered and they want someone _else_ to do stuff that I consider pretty basic maintenance, I have no problem with that person charging them to do that. And when they do charge them, they're not charging them for X hours of time or Y costs in materials. They're charging them because they've acquired knowledge about how to do things that the other person hasn't yet - and often doesn't want to. (Which, of course, is why we have riggers at all.)

[Thanatos340 1]

If I was using a PAID packer and they informed that I needed a new closing loop and/or they had changed the loop while packing, I would Definitely tip them a few extra $.. BUT $5 for a closing loop?? If they charged me $5 for a closing loop, It would be the last $5 they got from me.

If you use a Packer, Should they charge you for rubber bands too? What would be a fair price for each Band and the Installation??
Isn’t that pretty much the same thing?? They are normal wear, very inexpensive items that must be replaced occasionally.

[2shay 0]

I like the whole pay it forward at the dz idea. It was done for me free packing classes, rubber bands, closing loops which is a good investment could save thousands on sheet metal work to their aircraft. This was given to me because they loved the sport and shared that with me so I do that sort of thing for others. Once again they don't really care unless they can make money off of someone.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[Zenister 0]

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I would gladly pay 5 bucks for a closing loop.

Pay $5 for a fid and roll of line and make all you want.

$5 for something that takes about a minute is out of line. Including a closing loop as part of paid service isn't.

this is ridiculous.. if 5$ is 'too much' then do it yourself.. if you lack the skill, knowledge or time to do so then 5$ is perfectly reasonable.

I do LOTS of "1min repairs" everyday.. believe me the charge is much higher than 5$

"You pay for the expertise that you lack." If you want to look at it accurately that 5$ pays back the training time for the person who does the task for you. Time they were actually not earning while learning the skill set necessary for the task..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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I like the whole pay it forward at the dz idea.

this works fine...

as long as the DZ isnt 'business first'. When that attitude takes over everything has to be 'weighed' and valued or people will quickly find themselves being run over by those who will continue to abuse their 'good nature'

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,400]

>BUT $5 for a closing loop?? If they charged me $5 for a closing
>loop, It would be the last $5 they got from me.

I remember this sort of speech around the time packing prices went up. "WHAT? $6? If anyone charges me $6 a pack job, let me tell you - that's the last pack job I'd get from that greedy SOB!"

Nowadays almost everyone at Perris charges $6 and people pay it without drama. It's all in what's 'usual.'

>If you use a Packer, Should they charge you for rubber bands too?

Up to them.

>What would be a fair price for each Band and the Installation??

Up to them. Feel free to pack it yourself if you don't like what they do.

(BTW did you know that Square One actually charges MONEY for bags of rubber bands? Now there's a boycott in the making . . .)

[Thanatos340 1]

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Up to them. Feel free to pack it yourself if you don't like what they do.

Now that I agree with 100%.

But what we were discussing was the Nickel and Diming people. I dont mind paying one bit, Just let know roughly what it will cost. I will agree to it or not But if you come back and then start trying to find whatever else you can charge for, I wouldn’t come back.

Around here pack Jobs are still $5, For $5 I expect my main to be packed and Broken Rubber bands replaced. If the closing loop breaks while the rig is being closed, I would expect the packer to replace it as well and I would pay then a couple extra dollars. I pretty much tip my packer pretty well anyway. If they started nickel and diming me, They would loose my business. It is annoying.

The packers should consider Rubber Bands and Closing loops part of the "Cost of doing business" as these are very inexpensive General wear items that have to be replaced periodically as a normal and routine part of doing what they are charging for.

[mnskydiver688 0]

I agree. Knowledge is worth quite a bit. There are a lot of professions out there where you are getting paid for what you know more so than what you do. Now I'm sure if someone got charged $5 for a closing loop he/she would make it a point to learn how to make one. Knowledge is the real moneymaker these days.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[Halfpastniner 0]

i am a packer at a dz in northeast ohio and i can say that i replace closing loops all the time if there is even a question of it being worn out (that is what we were told to do) and I would never expect to be paid extra to change it out. Granted i didnt buy the loop it was provided from the dz i just installed it but there not that expensive anyway.

BASE 1384

[billvon 2,400]

A suggestion (not replying to you, just as a general comment)

Next time there are a bunch of people at the DZ and it's raining, get some suspension line (perhaps from an old canopy) a fid (or a bent piece of wire) and make a few hundred closing loops. Make 2-3 different lengths so people can accommodate larger rigs, get a smaller one if their pin is loose etc. It's something to do, newbies will learn something, and then you'll have a stock of them around if anyone needs one.

[2shay 0]

your thinking too far into it, a few here a few there and I jump when I'm at the dz i don't visit so it would more than likely be afterhours or on my own time. Favors go pretty far you might surpise yourself. All these 1 minute fixes for outrageous amounts of money is bull, I am a rigger too a lot of what I do is cheap or free. People forgot about the good ole' barter system.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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All these 1 minute fixes for outrageous amounts of money is bull, I am a rigger too a lot of what I do is cheap or free.

It's not free, it's you making an investment in good will in keeping more customers. I think it's great service and part of operating costs.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants