Opinions on new jumper with digital altimeter?

[brucet7 0]

I don't really have an opinion, I am a newbie and have an analog altimeter. What I did learn from this discussion was how to read my altimeter more easily. I hadn't been thinking of it as a clock face, as I was reading it in freefall. Duh!

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[AllisonH 0]

To me it's faster/easier to use an analog altimeter because I don't look at the numbers, I just quickly glance at the angle of the needle. I have no need to know my altitude within 10 or 100 feet in freefall. If it's pointing left I have time to play, pointing down I need to start paying more attention, pointing to the right it's time to track/pull.

[dragon2 0]

Personally I've had way more problems with digital alti's, like battery suddenly giving out, breaking the screen easily , but mostly giving wildly inaccurate readings presumably because of faulty components - one read 4000ft when I was already in my landing pattern - yeah right. I only had one analoge alti break on me, a loose needle is kinda hard to miss. YMMV.

On the whole, digital altis require more maintenance, you have to replace batteries they are not free and you have to pay attention to the battery levels and sometimes when it's cold or something you may be without a working battery all of a sudden. Also you have to RTFM as for instance a 20min flight on the way to a demo jump may cause your digi alti to reset itself, and getting out of the car and on to an airplane may result in an altitude difference (happened to me a few weeks ago, ahem), harder to notice on say a neptune that;s set to wake up by itself in the plane than in a large analog alti that you're glancing at while taxiing. OTOH I find my neptune way easier to read than an analoge, this varies from person to person but I wouldn't willingly go back to an analog.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mik 2]

I agree with Kallend on this.

Some time ago I read about research by car manufacturers that found that people could read digital speedometers much quicker than analogue ones. It's not a direct comparison but I find it much easier / quicker to read the digital display on my Neptune than my analogue altis.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[basehoundsam 0]

After knocking out 3 of my front teeth on a hard opening with an alti-2, I will never wear a 3 pound metal object on my hand while skydiving again. I know 2 other people that have either injured themselves, or broken a tandems nose while opening a parachute with a hunk of metal on their hands.
Just my .02$$$

And for all those out there that say.. it could never happen to me.......... after 10,000 $$ in dental work .... I assure you....It CAN !!

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[tdog 0]

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Very true. A lot of research was done in Humen Factors Engineering when digital instrumentation first became available in aircraft. It was determined that for instruments where there was a need to quickly spot a reading within a certain "range" or to identify a trend, i.e., "higher or lower", an analog display was far better.

I agree - in the context of an aircraft. I am not a pilot, but I spent two days in a cessna with a completely glass cockpit. I remember seeing how the digital representation of various readings in barchart and dial and pie chart formats allowed easy comparison of many readings from different systems.

I often watch the pilot in the Otter, and I can see how easy it is to look at the right and left engine gauges to see which one is running at a different power level by seeing analog guages next to each other.


However - an altimeter in skydiving does one thing - go down. There is nothing that a user has to "dial in" to get the system to operate in the "green zone". It is not like we are measuring engine speed or temps...

Hence, I stand by my argument... For me (and a lot of people I know):

1) The digital is more durable
2) The digital is easy to read for a lot of people
3) When a digital fails, most of the time the user will know

But if you want the "best of both worlds", there are now models that run an analog dial digitally... Still, if they break, the needle does not "disappear", so I still don't like them.

[Cashmanimal 0]

I don't find a digi altimeter to be hard to read at all. In fact, it feels much faster for me. It's not hard, especially once the internal clock starts to develop... something hard for students early on.

Glance at it, anything between 6 and 13 for a first digit is all I REALLY need to know most of the time, below that you should have the time to analyze the second digit (4.3, 3.9 etc).

That being said, can't beat an analog for shooting video, IMO. Just bring it into your peripheral, and bam, you know where you're at.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[kkeenan 13]

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Hence, I stand by my argument... For me (and a lot of people I know):

1) The digital is more durable
2) The digital is easy to read for a lot of people
3) When a digital fails, most of the time the user will know

The bottom line is , as with many gear choices, personal preference.

However, the OP asked about student / newbie usage. I still contend that, for the reasons stated in several posts, the analog display is better for low-timers. Not to offend any newbies, but the concept that, "Less thinking is better", is usually a good policy when equipping low time jumpers.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[tdog 0]

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The bottom line is , as with many gear choices, personal preference.

I totally agree it is personal preference.

I personally don't mind a newer jumper having a digital as they are less likely to be doing wingsuiting and/or video where a glance is required to see "approximate time left" and they can spare an extra half second to actually look at the numbers.

Further, they are more likely to not handle a broken alti correctly because they are less likely to have trained their eyes to recognise various altitudes, have the internal clock to realize the needle is stuck or moving slow, or have the flying skills to read a teammate's altimeter instead of theirs as they will be less likely to be turning a lot of points in close proximity...

Further, Alti's are not cheap. I disagree that a student should have to financially "upgrade" after a few hundred jumps if they like digital but feel they need analog for a while....

So therefore, if my best friend just got done with AFF and asked me, "digital or analog" I would say:

"You have some jumps on an analog. Wanna borrow my digital and do a jump and make your own decision?" I then would tell them all the pros and cons as I have already posted. Then I would let them make their own decision and not mind them jumping either.

But this is all about personal opinion and taste. I respect others who disagree, although I will continue to disagree that a digital alti hurts low time jumpers, as I have no real world statistics to show any injuries or fatalities or low pulls because of it. Everyone's arguments are based on preference, not data. Preference is ok, but without data I am not going to restrict someone from using them. And, I have data (video and my lowest pull ever as an instructor) to prove a broken analog confuses students more than a blank or error screen digital.

[MarkM 0]

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But I bet it COULD show a wrong altitude, and overall I bet it is more likely to do something wrong than an analog altimeter.

Owned 3 neptunes over 4 years and had them fail maybe 5-6 times. Usually when they've failed on me they've locked up on me, frozen the displays. Had that happen once in freefall too and it stuck on 10k.

But without a doubt I prefer them to my analog altimeter. They're more accurate, log my jumps and I don't have to zero them out, ever. They just work... so long as I keep fresh batteries in them
I think with any altimeter, analog or digital, you should trust but verify what they're telling you.

[kallend 1,623]

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The bottom line is , as with many gear choices, personal preference.

I totally agree it is personal preference.

I personally don't mind a newer jumper having a digital as they are less likely to be doing wingsuiting and/or video where a glance is required to see "approximate time left" and they can spare an extra half second to actually look at the numbers.

.

I have been reading clock faces and reading numbers for roughly the same amount of time (about 58 years) and I personally don't find it any easier to read an analog scale than a number. I've read way more numbers than analog scales in those 58 years. And (with the minor exception of Roman numerals on some snobby items) all the numbers I read are in the same format, but analog gauges are not all in the same format at all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mdrejhon 8]

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2) Those of us who are model year 1975 (our brain) grew up in the digital world. I can "glance" at a digital device and read it just as quick, or even quicker than an analog. Unfortunately every morning I have to look at my alarm clock and quickly process if I can sleep more or go to work.

I am close, but I can read the analog alti okay -- but yes, I notice I do read digital clocks much faster than I can read analog clocks, which takes a bit of time to process. The pie chart effect on Altimater's helps a lot - the amount of white space left before the yellow/red area. I do also like the AltiTrack, which is somewhat non-linear though, as the pie chart really usually only becomes important to me at 6K or under, really...

It also like the Windows world versus the UNIX world. Some of us process faster with textual info (like me), while others of us process faster with just the icon without the icon description. I always configure my Mac's and PC's to display Details in File Explorer / Finder / etc, because I hate icon grids, and prefer to work with list-displays: My brain processes faster that way (except for photo folders, at which I prefer Thumbnails view.)

The point is different people process different kinds of information at different speeds.

[dgw 8]

General comment:

There have been a number of comparisons between reading a digital clock and an analogue clock.

In the context of comparing digital versus analog altimeters, there is a significant difference when comparing them to clock faces.

An analogue clock face has two hands, and both hands need to be read, and then 'added' in order to derive the current time. An analogue altimeter, on the other hand, has only one hand, and does not require a calculation to derive altitude, so it is fundamentally easier to read than an analogue clock.

Digital clocks and digital altimeters don't require the extra work involved in reading an analogue clock face.

My view? Horses for courses.....

[denete 2]

If you're close to brown-out under a hard spinning mal, I'd bet that it would be easier to know if you're at your decide-and-act altitude with a well-marked analog alti. than with a digital.

$.02

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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The pie chart effect on Altimater's helps a lot - the amount of white space left before the yellow/red area.

You just contradict with yourself.

You can get your info refined from reading the analog clock. You can tell that if you have time or not by a blink or you can read you altitude with a look.

There is only on way to read digital display: read and understand the numbers.

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It also like the Windows world versus the UNIX world. Some of us process faster with textual info (like me), while others of us process faster with just the icon without the icon description. I always configure my Mac's and PC's to display Details in File Explorer / Finder / etc, because I hate icon grids, and prefer to work with list-displays: My brain processes faster that way (except for photo folders, at which I prefer Thumbnails view.)

You are drifting. Analog and digital readout is studied in ergonomics and psychology, it has nothing to do with computers or etc.

Anyway you might have other problems reading your digital displays(LCD) like polarized sunglasses, flare from the sun ..etc.

Analog altimeter is much better for freefall.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If you're close to brown-out under a hard spinning mal,

Have you experienced it?
I would not let things develop from bad to critical.
Anyway there is a good point that it could be easier to read an analog in high stress situation.

[climboutandhang 0]

i bought a VISO right after my second freefall.
i had a hard time seeing the hand on analog alti.
I love the viso, i can see it clearly in freefall.
it works well for me.
plus it's cool to review my jump on it.

Labels are limits!

[AlRedler 0]

Both analog and digital can fail. My worst was when my analog broke and stuck after exit and on the same jump my audible (Neptune) didn't sound. I was back flying with someone else and didn't have visual ground reference. A bit of a low pull later I switched the neptune to my wrist and bought a Solo for my helmet.

That works well and I find that I process the digital altitude better than I did analog, even on a quick glance. I think it is different for different people.

As an aside, don't put cheap batteries off the internet in your audible!

[mnealtx 0]

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Not to offend any newbies, but the concept that, "Less thinking is better", is usually a good policy when equipping low time jumpers.

Kevin

Not to offend anyone either, but a person that overloads on a digital countdown is most likely going to overload on an analog reading as well and should probably take up golf.... just my opinion.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[chuckakers 370]

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im new to the sport and im wondering what opinions are to someone like me using a digital altimeter? ive read that they sometimes fail? any suggestions?

We used Digitudes for students at my ol' DZ, Skydive USA. Students loved them because they break down freefall altitudes in good chunks - 5, 4.5, 4, 3.5, etc.

Never worried about failure on students (cuz I kept an extra in my jumpsuit).

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[AggieDave 6]

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If you're close to brown-out under a hard spinning mal, I'd bet that it would be easier to know if you're at your decide-and-act altitude with a well-marked analog alti. than with a digital.

$.02

I'm sorry but you have no base of experience for this opinion and example.

If you've let a malfunction last long enough to make it close to g-lock, then your altitude doesn't matter anymore. What kind of dytter or wrist mount altimeter doesn't matter. What kind of cool jumpsuit you're wearing doesn't matter. None of that matters. You already waited too long to chop and are 100% behind the curve.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[denete 2]

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I'm sorry but you have no base of experience for this opinion and example.

I'm sorry Dave, but I guess that means that you already know what my base of experience is. Let's have a quick question-and-answer session Dave. Here goes. Can you tell me exactly what my base of experience is?

And, how does it relate to having an opinion? What is the requirement for an opinion?

I'm kind of hoping that you're kidding.

[denete 2]

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If you're close to brown-out under a hard spinning mal, I'd bet that it would be easier to know if you're at your decide-and-act altitude with a well-marked analog alti. than with a digital.

$.02

I'm sorry but you have no base of experience for this opinion and example.

If you've let a malfunction last long enough to make it close to g-lock, then your altitude doesn't matter anymore. What kind of dytter or wrist mount altimeter doesn't matter. What kind of cool jumpsuit you're wearing doesn't matter. None of that matters. You already waited too long to chop and are 100% behind the curve.

Since you're big on people needing to be on the "cool kids" list in order for them to even have an opinion, I'll let you read this guy's opinion. Apparently he's on the "cool kids" list. His last name is Booth.

Risk of spinning mal with g-forces not allowing you to cut-away

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[mnealtx 0]

From a physics standpoint, Dave is right - if you're close to graying out due to a spinning mal, you've already waited too long to cut away and what altitude you're at is immaterial at that point.... unless you're advocating riding a spinner down to your decision altitude before taking action, which I doubt.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tdog 0]

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Since you're big on people needing to be on the "cool kids" list in order for them to even have an opinion, I'll let you read this guy's opinion. Apparently he's on the "cool kids" list. His last name is Booth

Risk of spinning mal with g-forces not allowing you to cut-away

Dude, hoping this does not sound like a personal attack... But you even have me thinking, "what in the hell?"

A high speed spinning mal happens on opening (OK, post opening damage like a canopy collision might rarely come as a "surprise".)

You need to know your altitude at pull time and immediately handle the situation. Looking at any altimeter to decide "should I get rid of it" is not going to help if you can't land the canopy in the first place.

Even the guy (Bill Booth) in the post you quote says it:

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You must be "spring loaded" in your reaction to such a perilous situation. It must be "automatic". There may not be much time to think.

Granted - you could argue, "below X feet I can no longer cut away, I might be too low". Well, at that point, taking your main into the ground, or adding your reserve to the mess, is going to kill you just the same when you are spinning that fast.

Spinning mals, ones that could blur vision, have very little to do with analog or digital altimeters.

I respect anyone's opinion, however you need to give me data to prove your point. Can you find an incident report that shows spinning mal that is not land-able + digital altimeter = problem?