mr2mk1g 10 #26 February 16, 2005 Quotemy understanding is that one would only pull their reserve if they didn't have enough alti for your main. eg, issue at 2-3kft Americans... That's just a hop+pop... 4-5k is a mid ticket. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #27 February 16, 2005 QuoteI expect that the thory behing having one procedure that doesnt consider altitude is so that you dont waste any time in an emergency situation trying to decide which handle you should pull. Just like the decision whether or not to land with the plane, the main/reserve decision is not made at the time of the emergency but as the plane climbs through the predetermined decision altitudes. So mine are 1000ft and 17000ft. Upon take off I am a passenger and if there is a problem with the plane, I will be landing with it.... until 1000ft. At 1000ft my seatbelt comes off. It has been predetermined that at this altitude, the decision is changed. If there is an emergency, I will leave the plane and go silver... until 1700ft. At 1700ft I note to myself that if the pilot scream "Get Out!!!", I'm going to get out and most likely deploy my main. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #28 February 16, 2005 Quote If you're going to do a realistic drill, then you're going to have a lot of jumpers exiting quickly. I'd think that this would be dangerous because of canopy opening proximity and also load balancing on the plane. I think you're missing the point. Even in an emergency, bail-outs need to be done safely. This is precisely why bail-out drills are a good thing. Practice the drill safely, then when the emergency comes you'll do it for real - safely. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #29 February 16, 2005 Interesting!Each of us is responsible for "Our Own" altitude and canopy choice.But,Da pilot dude is in charge!If he/she says get out at 1000 ft.What do you do at 900ft,800ft,?How about 650ft?"I'M GETTING OUT AND PULLING MY RESERVE"!Other than that I'm staying in the plane below 500ft and possibly die with everyone else.Running through all the outs to save ones life can't be a bad thing!rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #30 February 16, 2005 Quote Even in an emergency, bail-outs need to be done safely. Are you suggesting the jumpers need to make proper delays to get enough separation in a case of emergency when the plane looses power and begins to loose altitude at 2k? Dudes ... may we should all shut up and wait until someone who has more experience, jumps and years in sport steps in and makes a detailed post about bailouts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 February 16, 2005 Quote Are you suggesting the jumpers need to make proper delays to get enough separation in a case of emergency when the plane looses power and begins to loose altitude at 2k? Think of it as a building on fire, lots of people inside with only a small door. If everyone panics and rushes the door, people die from being crushed. Likewise, if you panic in a plane emergency and bail out in an unsafe manner, people will get hurt. Keep in mind, when doing 'clear and pulls', you really don't need a lot of separation between individuals. It's not like we're talking about an 8 second delay between 4-ways. If you practice the drill in a safe manner, you'll execute it in a safe manner. Most airplane emergencies at 2000 will be landable, of those that aren't most will have at least 2 minutes until impact. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 February 16, 2005 Great giggles! The morning of Safety Day, we should brief everyone on bail-out drills and warn them that - sometime today - they may get a chance to practice. Hee! Hee! Then - while everyone is napping at 4,000' over the DZ - the pilot pulls power to flight-idle and starts screaming "EVERYBODY OUT! EVERYBODY OUT!" Back on the ground, you de-brief the bail-out drill and listen to suggestions on how to do it better next time. To ally financial fears, manifest only charges that load for 4,000'. Now that everyone has calmed down - concluding that the day's excitement is over - on the next load, the pilot pulls the power to idle at 4,000' and the fun repeats! Hee! Hee! Note to lawyers: we would only practice this drill with licensed jumpers on board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #33 February 16, 2005 Quote Think of it as a building on fire, lots of people inside with only a small door. If everyone panics and rushes the door, people die from being crushed. not only that but you (esp the pilot) still needs to worry about weight distribution in the plane as people are 'rushing' to exit. also... It doesn't make sense to pull your reserve when you dont need to. Why risk a potential problem you can't cut away assuming there is enough time? Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #35 February 16, 2005 >Are you suggesting the jumpers need to make proper delays to get enough separation . . . Back in the bad old days, we'd do hop and pops a lot. There were never any separation issues. You got out and opened your parachute as fast as you could. How did you avoid running into the guy who got out after you? You looked at him and made sure that you didn't run into him. People are thinking of a bailout like a high altitude jump. They're not like that. If you had a line of 20 people in an otter, and everyone did a poised (or even diving) exit as fast as humanly possible, then opened immediately. you'd be fine. That plane is doing about 80 knots which is about 150 feet per second. That means 100 feet between every person if you exit a little faster than one a second (which, from my experience, is about as fast as confused skydivers can move.) Plus which, you're all starting out with exactly the same vertical speed and altitude; you're not going to suddenly get 1000 feet below or above someone on exit. This was apparent at Rantoul this year during the days that the PAC was flying people for hop and pops. We'd exit about one person a second, open, look at the people on both sides of us, then turn and start playing with the canopy. You could tell who the newer jumpers were who hadn't done a lot of hop and pops; they'd look out the door and start counting. I never bugged them about it because it made them feel safer, and it's a good habit to get into anyway. For DZ's that don't do a lot of hop and pops. it's probably more useful to just practice them rather than do some sort of emergency exit drill. Line up X people in an otter (you can line up about 10 at a time in the aisle, and pack some more in the door area) and have them do poised exits at the rate of about one a second. You'll see how much separation you get, and you'll get good practice on how to do a bailout under ideal conditions. Once that's out of the way, a 'real' practice bailout would make more sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #36 February 16, 2005 So basically the most important parts of the drill are (correct me if I am wrong): 1) Upon receiving a bailout signal, make a quick decision which parachute to deploy. This depends primarily on exit altitude. I would go for reserve between 1K and 2K and for a main if I am higher than 2K and the plane is still flying stable. The logic behind deploying a main canopy is not just saving a reserve pack job but increasing the chances of having a good landable parachute (reserves do malfunction). I would go for a reserve if the emergency happens at higher altitude but the plane is unstable and is loosing the altitude fast. These are personal choices made taking into account the opening characteristics of MY main canopy. All this can be practiced on the ground using a real plane. 2) Communicating with the others during the exit and exiting quickly to prevent jams. Can be practiced on the ground too 3) Deployment and traffic management to avoid collisions. This is something we suposed to do on every skydive. 4) Finding a place to land as quickly as possible. Again, this is something we supposed to do on every skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #37 February 16, 2005 I think that he wants to conduct the drill in the safest manner possible which would include some seperation. I think that everyone realizes that in an emergency it will be an acceptable risk to not give as much seperation than ride the plane to it's possible doom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 February 16, 2005 I disagree. You do not need much separation to be safe. If you give one second, it'll take 20 seconds to clear a full Otter. If you give half a second, even less time. A half second is what exists between two people going one after another single file. If you neglect to go one after another, then people get hurt, the door gets clogged, and people get stuck, and don't make it. From 2000 feet, you've got two minutes in a standard engine out. Be safe. Don't rush. Always. That's the point of doing the drill. Ever watch a CRW team exit? Safe, orderly, with good separation, and quick. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #39 February 16, 2005 Quote>Are you suggesting the jumpers need to make proper delays to get enough separation . . . Back in the bad old days, we'd do hop and pops a lot. There were never any separation issues. You got out and opened your parachute as fast as you could. How did you avoid running into the guy who got out after you? You looked at him and made sure that you didn't run into him. Yup I've done this and it was pretty recent when I was still on student status in Texas, a bit like a CReW run, it's what I was trained to do when there are a lot of Hop 'n Pops. I was surprised recently at a local DZ, we did a Hop 'n Pop and the first guy starts spotting, then the second then the third, they were taking at least 8 second delays between each other on a hop & pop. We barely got 4 out on a pass. Then one guy finally does it right and get's out maybe two seconds after the guy in front (he still has plenty of separation and a nice opening all caught on video), and when he get's down most of the jumpers are laughing at him for doing pretty much what I was taught was safe on a Hop 'n Pop exit. FWIW I rode that one down (exit was a bit low for me). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #40 February 16, 2005 QuoteI sit by the door of twin otter and hear pilot yelling everybody out at 5K? Okay, my profile is filled out... so take it for whatever you think it is worth, but... At 5k personally, I'm STILL "chunking" the exit, turning points and jumping the ORIGINAL dive plan! 5k is PLENTY of "room". ...Puh-Leeze. Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #41 February 16, 2005 >At 5k personally, I'm STILL "chunking" the exit, turning points >and jumping the ORIGINAL dive plan! I know you know this, but just in case anyone else reads this and gets the wrong idea - The above was a commentary on how 5000 feet is a safe altitude to jump, not what to do during an aircraft emergency. It goes without saying that if there is an aircraft emergency and everyone has to bail out, there is no chunking/floating/group exits etc. Just exit as fast as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #42 February 16, 2005 QuoteI know you know this, but just in case anyone else reads this and gets the wrong idea - Correct. I guess I should be more careful with my sarcasm. Yes, I suppose you do know I know this. Especially considering the one girl I "got in trouble" for ragging upon who during an ACTUAL emergency bail-oout situation: 1. Climbed out 2. Did a poised/floating exit, then 3. Hit her head on the horizontal stab! Knocked herself unconcious, had a Cypres save, and EVEN THEN did not realize (at the time) what "else" she may have done wrong (and COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS ENTIRELY in the 1st place)! You're right though Bill. Perhaps in "topical forums" I should find a way to check my sarcasm at the door. My bad. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #43 February 16, 2005 Does that 100-150ft / 32ft vertical gap still work fine if some pull right away while others delay 2 or 3 second? Poised versus head down dive? Snively versus slamming? Should everyone be ready to turn away from the line of flight right away, or unneeded? I think I would be better off for the experience. I remember from the canopy class that one group really had the 1 second intervals down nicely for the 7000 HnPs. I was mostly thinking how did they all get out that tiny cessna door (206) so smoothly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #44 February 16, 2005 > Does that 100-150ft / 32ft vertical gap still work fine if some pull right >away while others delay 2 or 3 second? Yes. Then you get more vertical separation. >Poised versus head down dive? Yes. Basically you have to find one other person while opening - the person you are facing when you open. That's the way you're going to go anyway. >Snively versus slamming? Same as taking a delay. >Should everyone be ready to turn away from the line of flight right away, or unneeded? Unneeded. Mainly just keep your eyes open for that other person. >I was mostly thinking how did they all get out that tiny cessna door (206) so smoothly? We used to do the same out of a 182 - and five people in a 182 was tight indeed. Just took some practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #45 February 17, 2005 QuoteQuote Think of it as a building on fire, lots of people inside with only a small door. If everyone panics and rushes the door, people die from being crushed. not only that but you (esp the pilot) still needs to worry about weight distribution in the plane as people are 'rushing' to exit. also... It doesn't make sense to pull your reserve when you dont need to. Why risk a potential problem you can't cut away assuming there is enough time? I take it you have never done big ways. You can empty an otter in just over 3 sec. and not have a problem with CG. In Dec. I was on an ash dive with 23 people in the otter. We were at 4100 feet and did one pass over the target. First out was Dan BC. I was in the middle of the load, took a 10 sec. delay, opened just under 3000 feet. Everyone landed in the grass landing area. And it was raining. If the pilot says get out, get out in an orderly manner and pull. Don't make it any harder than it is. SparkMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #46 February 17, 2005 QuoteMy 2 bits (which you knew you would get one way or another) is that a live drill in the air is not a good option for a number of reasons. I do strongly support ground training on the issue! We did two loads of Twin Otter emergency exits from 3500 feet a few safety days ago. It was preplannned with staggered openings and was done safely and expeditiously. It was good practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #47 February 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteI sit by the door of twin otter and hear pilot yelling everybody out at 5K ? Okay, my profile is filled out... so take it for whatever you think it is worth, but... QuoteAt 5k personally, I'm STILL "chunking" the exit, turning points and jumping the ORIGINAL dive plan! 5k is PLENTY of "room". ...Puh-Leeze. Yes, 5K is plenty of altitude, but . . . if the pilot is having aircraft issues e.g. loss of power, control problems, whatever, he may not want the weight and drag of you putting your chunk together, floaters and all, and launching all together, with the resultant c.g. shift. If you're low due to weather, cool If there's a mechanical problem, just get out quick and smooth and let the people behind you out, too. Yes, I've done emergency exits. Lowest was 1200'. Diving exit, main worked fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 4 #48 February 17, 2005 I think the missing ingredient in the postings on this subject is the confusion factor in the airplane. I bet if I asked 100 jumpers what they would do if the engine was engulfed in flames that 50 of them would say "I run to the door and jump out". The other 50 (mostly older/more experienced) jumpers would say "I'd sit still, check my handles and buckles, and wait until the pilot said to get out." -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites heftee 0 #49 February 17, 2005 Bill, great reply - thank you. This thread has made me think - which is what I wanted. I'm going to present this to my DZO and let him make a decision. At the very least, we can have a specific seminar on bailouts. Thank you everyone for your input. Please continue the discussion - I'm liking it. ------------------------- "If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane." David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #50 February 17, 2005 QuoteMost airplane emergencies at 2000 will be landable, of those that aren't most will have at least 2 minutes until impact. Questionable (the 2 minutes to impact when the airplane is out of control @ 2000ft ). I used to think the same until I encountered a film a couple of years ago of a C206 crash. Things went wrong at 3500ft (premature opening) airplane experienced C of G problem (apparently to many people towards the tail). Incident happened to be filmed from the ground. (Someone filming the first student exiting...) From deploying canopy until impacting airplane took less than 25 seconds... If airplanes don't fly, they can come down extremly fast! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
darkwing 4 #48 February 17, 2005 I think the missing ingredient in the postings on this subject is the confusion factor in the airplane. I bet if I asked 100 jumpers what they would do if the engine was engulfed in flames that 50 of them would say "I run to the door and jump out". The other 50 (mostly older/more experienced) jumpers would say "I'd sit still, check my handles and buckles, and wait until the pilot said to get out." -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heftee 0 #49 February 17, 2005 Bill, great reply - thank you. This thread has made me think - which is what I wanted. I'm going to present this to my DZO and let him make a decision. At the very least, we can have a specific seminar on bailouts. Thank you everyone for your input. Please continue the discussion - I'm liking it. ------------------------- "If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane." David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #50 February 17, 2005 QuoteMost airplane emergencies at 2000 will be landable, of those that aren't most will have at least 2 minutes until impact. Questionable (the 2 minutes to impact when the airplane is out of control @ 2000ft ). I used to think the same until I encountered a film a couple of years ago of a C206 crash. Things went wrong at 3500ft (premature opening) airplane experienced C of G problem (apparently to many people towards the tail). Incident happened to be filmed from the ground. (Someone filming the first student exiting...) From deploying canopy until impacting airplane took less than 25 seconds... If airplanes don't fly, they can come down extremly fast! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
