Safety Day bail out drills

[heftee 0]

I had made a suggestion at my DZ during our Customer Appreciate Weekend about bail out drills during Safety Day - which is coming up. I wanted to run by some of my (very inexperienced) thoughts and get your input. I know that with constructive criticism, I can provide these suggestions to the DZ and see if they’ll agree to do it. Perhaps other DZs will want to do something similar as well. If it proves to be a very bad idea, I’m willing to accept that and discontinue entertaining the thought.

Having only been jumping < 3 years and mostly at turbine DZs, I have not had the experience of an aircraft emergency bailout. (Knock on wood). However, I hear many “what-if” situations. Let me say that I know we can’t cover all the possible scenarios, but there are a few that are worth touching on.

What I wanted to propose is staging a couple emergencies requiring a bail out. Here are some thoughts on how I picture it; please add/change/critique.

Now, I would first have all the instructors briefed again on DZ policies of such events. I would have at least one instructor on the load that is going to have the bail out. I would even suggest that the instructors know which loads it will occur on (along with pilot and manifest of course).

I would ensure all people jumping at the DZ that day know of the possibility of this occurrence. By using the email distribution, flyers around the DZ, announcements at DZ, during the seminars/classes that are setup…there are many ways to ensure the jumpers know that these drills are going to happen. They won’t know which load it would be on, just that the potential is there.

I’d like to keep it simple and have “the emergency” occur while the pilot is over the DZ – I don’t see the point in adding to the scenario with an off DZ landing. That brings other factors into this equation, and I’d like to concentrate on the bailout process itself.

The pilot would simply (I say “simply” without knowing what it involves) do what he would do in a real emergency – fill in the blanks on this as I don’t know – but I assume he’d tell us to get out with some sort of basic instruction and then an instructor would then take over commands. I’m sure there is more to it than this; I’m listening for feedback…

I wouldn’t do anything crazy like a 3K bailout over water. I’d stick to something along the lines of 7K-10K where the instructor can dictate separation and instruct the jumpers on pulling right out the door or going to x,000 feet and pulling. However it “should” be done.

The reason why a lot of these details aren’t specific are because, quite honestly, I don’t know them. I don’t know the proper procedures. I know some very general theories, but some of the decisions based on altitude and many other factors – I just don’t know. This is part of why I want to do this. I think going through it will help answer some questions.

What I propose is that, after the emergency, get the group together to discuss what happened, how it was handled and changes that need to be made should it happen again. This information can then be more widely broadcast during the Safety Day seminars. I know so many newer jumpers (and myself) that don’t know what to do other than the broad blanket of “get out” and “follow either the pilot or most senior jumper’s instructions”. This is great, but I know there is more to it.

The pros that I can think of:
What a great learning experience – not only for those on the plane, but for others who participate in the post-emergency session, the instructors, the pilot, manifest, the DZ staff, etc… (staff – What procedures do you have in place to make sure everyone made it back? How do you handle any possible issues from those that just bailed out – shock, trama? are some examples – it’s not just those on the plane).

The cons that I can think of off the top of my head:
If not done properly – possibility of injury and the risk/liability associated
Some jumpers may feel ripped out of a “good skydive”
I’m sure there are more; let’s hear ‘em…

I know, there are going to be some that say “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” meaning I’m just inviting disaster. I see that point, but think of the education it could bring – if done properly. That’s what I’m trying to figure out – how to do it properly. If it can be done, I think it’d be great. If it can’t, I’ll go back to playing “what-if” games with instructors and other jumpers.

Thanks for listening to me, and I look forward to constructive criticism.

-------------------------
"If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane."
David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel)

[ChrisL 2]

One problem I see is that most bailout scenarios I have been taught involve pulling your reserve immediately following exit rather than your main.

If they did it with mains "just for the drill" then it wouldnt
be a very realistic drill. If its not fairly true to life, its not likely to have that much value.

I for one wouldnt want to be on that load because:

a. it would hose my planned dive

b. without a reserve pull it wouldnt be very realistic

c. I doubt they would want to refund the tickets for the whole load they just forced to bail

__

My mighty steed

[heftee 0]

Yeah, I wouldn't want it to cost everyone a reserve repack, so it would have to be at main alt.
Is it just not as likely to have a problem higher up?
Thanks for the good point.

-------------------------
"If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane."
David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel)

[Buried 0]

Quote

One problem I see is that most bailout scenarios I have been taught involve pulling your reserve immediately following exit rather than your main

my understanding is that one would only pull their reserve if they didn't have enough alti for your main. eg, issue at 2-3kft

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[ChrisL 2]

That depends on where you were trained.

The emergency bailout drills I was taught did not make a distinction between low altitude or high.

1. Look at jumpmaster

2. Grab reserve handle

3. Bail out when JM says go

4. Pull reserve handle

I'm sure I'm not the only guy that was taught that way.

Probably different methods for different dropzones.

All that said, I made my first 50 jumps in 1989 and then stopped jumping till 2003. Maybe they no longer teach that procedure, still I'll bet if I go back to my original DZ that its still the same. I know its still the same folks there

__

My mighty steed

[billvon 2,400]

Take up a load of jumpers and tell them they will practice emergency bailouts at 12,000 feet. Then start the drill at 2500.

[napalmboy 0]

Quote

Probably different methods for different dropzones.

Yeah, I'd say so. My instructor told me to glance at my altimeter on my way to the door in the case of a bailout, so I'd know which handle to go for how soon.

Under, at, or very near to my hard deck (for me, 2500) means silver after 1 second. Within 1000 feet of my hard deck is silver in 5, and anything much above that can be main at intended pull altitude. (With my numbers, I'm not comfortable with an intended pull altitude under 4000, and I even kinda think that 4000 is pushing it. )

So, not to give a dz.com standard reply or anything, but talk to some instructors, figure out what you want to do, and know what it is when the time comes.

Well, the door was open...

[ChrisL 2]

I expect that the thory behing having one procedure that doesnt consider altitude is so that you dont waste any time in an emergency situation trying to decide which handle you should pull.

__

My mighty steed

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

Take up a load of jumpers and tell them they will practice emergency bailouts at 12,000 feet. Then start the drill at 2500.

This is certainly when Chris' problem comes in. All students and A license jumpers would be violating the BSRs at fault of the instructor and pilot (as it isn't actually an emergency), and argueably so would B license holders, unless they are IADed. None the less, I think it would be an excellent idea just bump it up to 5000' or something. I know my S&TA does it when he does I courses. They did something like this when I did my glider training. After you had done your first 2 flights the instructor said that on some future flight he would pull the tow release at about 700' while still in the pattern; you had to safely land the glider or you couldn't solo. Same happens for engine out senaries for flying instruction.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[yarpos 4]

a bit off topic but I thought I would share (bit oif a "there I was" story but bear with me). In my my first skydiving career I seemed to accumulate power failure/bail out incidents:

Jump 1 Australia (really 1, 1st static line) C182, noise stops completely 20ft of the deck, luckily on long asphalt runway so he just put it down again. Not great gliders but good enough!

Much later on one visit to the US, spluttering smoking Beech D18 at Coolidge, 10 grand so everyone calmy lines up and does the dive

A week later spluttering non smoking beech D18 at 5 grand at Greene County Louisiana, everyone decides to leave slightly less calmy

A year later again a Beech D18 in Oz at 3 grand(I'm not getting in another one of those suckers, as much as I love em....are they still flying? US guys?) pilot gets sick in flight and is barely conscious...smart arse at the door just yell "I'm going for help!!" and leaves....errr we figure he's lazy enough not to just get out just anywhere so we "must" be over the DZ, so we all leave , much less calmy than I recall my US exits but then we are lower and unconscious pilots conjure up really bad mental images compared with spluttering engines. He was right! right over the top, thanks Bob.

not quite in the same category but I also managed to be on a load where a student sitting in the door of an Islander (twin engine , high wiing, mini otter style non turbine) has his front mounted reserve fall on his lap. The period in which everyone looked at it and froze seemed to last 30 mins but I expect was 1 second. His instructor started to push him out, their was a large bang and he was gone. The side of the plane had opened up like the big guy upstairs had attacked us with his giant can opener.

You know typing this I wonder why I am still alive and returning to jumping...I guess I like the thrills.

BTW everybody survived (Islander boy was injured but it was minor when you looked at what he did to the plane, I assumed he was dead) and no animals were injured in the making of these experiences.

If anyone wants to start a thread re formation loads and exiting only to almost go through the windscreen of a miss-placed chase plane...I can contribute

BS and may you have as much luck to you as I have had

Steve

PS: related story , I was "courting" the nieghbouring (to the DZ) farmers daughter. I was at their place and a C182 passes over head near exit hieght (3 miles straight line to the DZ), splutter cough...4 bodies appear..land in front yard and I am there for DZ taxi service, no probs. Talk to pilot that night in the pub, still pissing himself laughing (sorry dont know the US term)...he said the engine coughed started to fail, he felt OK plenty of glide time to the DZ, turns around to say " I'll take you blokes back to near the DZ and then I'll put it down"... all he sees is a flurry of containers(rear view) and he is sitting in an empty plane. Nothing like decisive thinkers....actually he thought it was cool , one less thing to think about and he could focus on putting it down, which he did.

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[napalmboy 0]

Yeah, that's a valid point, and if you're only going to have one procedure, it should involve silver.

I think (<---speculation!) my instructor's theory is that it only takes one second to figure out your altitude, which you can take on your way to the door, or have a good idea of anyway (you took your helmet and seatbelt off at 1000/1500...). Combined with practicing this mentally and that you ideally shouldn't have to think "Hey, what's my hard deck again?" and it isn't that difficult to know what to pull.

Simplified, it's "If you're at all uncomfortable with how high you are, go silver." I suppose it doesn't really need to be more complilcated than that.

Well, the door was open...

[Buried 0]

I would say if you do happen to get this all worked out @ 12k ft, you should have te JM yell and some people to get back in and sit under the wing.. depending on the alti the trouble happens at some may need to stay in.. Ha wouldn't we all love that. forced to ride the plane down

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

I expect that the thory behing having one procedure that doesnt consider altitude is so that you dont waste any time in an emergency situation thinking about which handle you are going to pull.

For people who can't think for themselves, i.e. students, then they should be told by the jumpmaster on the load what to do. I know in the event of an emergency I would tell any student I had what to do. All licensed jumpers should know exactly what they would do in any possible situation before stepping on that plane. If they wish to needlessly pull their reserve at 5000', then that's their repack money. But they should be able to look at their altimeter during climb out and know what they would do if the pilot called for an emergency egress.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[ChrisL 2]

Quote

For people who can't think for themselves, i.e. students, then they should be told by the jumpmaster on the load what to do.

Actually these types should have already been drilled on one specific procedure on the ground before they ever climb aboard, and it should be a simple, hard to forget maneuver that doesnt require any analysis on their part.

You and me and many others can think under pressure
and make some decisions for themselves.
I'm not trying to suggest that the one size fits all solution is right for experienced jumpers.
I'm merely relaying how I was taught as a student and frankly I agree with it. Students who could well be overwhelmed under normal circumstances, could be even more overwhelmed in an emergency.
The one size fits all solution for them is what I believe makes the most sense from a survivability point of view.
In a real emergency NOBODY should be thinking about paying for reserve repacks no matter how experienced they are

__

My mighty steed

[billvon 2,400]

>The emergency bailout drills I was taught did not make a distinction
>between low altitude or high.

I was involved with an emergency bailout at Rantoul (I was tossing people out the door while yelling for them to bail out) and no one went for their reserve. I suspect that most people will revert to what they know in an emergency, which is to open their main. But it's a good point, and by warning them beforehand they can consider whether they want to participate in such a drill if they will open their reserve out of habit.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

For people who can't think for themselves, i.e. students, then they should be told by the jumpmaster on the load what to do.

Actually these types should have already been drilled on one specific procedure on the ground before they ever climb aboard, and it should be a simple, hard to forget maneuver that doesnt require any analysis on their part.

As a more recently trained student (late 2003 for this matter at hand), I was told both scenarios may apply. In those pre HnP days I presumed I'd be going right to silver but was told that might not be necessary. (And always be ready to exit the plane once the seat belts come off)

Seems silly to me now to unnecessarily switch to base jumping mode.

[sunshine 2]

Quote

b. without a reserve pull it wouldnt be very realistic

Why not? I had an emergency exit last year. High enough to open the main. And yeah, it was realistic.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

Quote

For people who can't think for themselves, i.e. students, then they should be told by the jumpmaster on the load what to do.

Actually these types should have already been drilled on one specific procedure on the ground before they ever climb aboard, and it should be a simple, hard to forget maneuver that doesnt require any analysis on their part.

You and me and many others can think under pressure
and make some decisions for themselves.
I'm not trying to suggest that the one size fits all solution is right for experienced jumpers.
I'm merely relaying how I was taught as a student and frankly I agree with it. Students who could well be overwhelmed under normal circumstances, could be even more overwhelmed in an emergency.
The one size fits all solution for them is what I believe makes the most sense from a survivability point of view.
In a real emergency NOBODY should be thinking about paying for reserve repacks no matter how experienced they are

This is where I disagree and where I teach my students (as my DZ directs and I agree) differently. Some of the bigger DZs are so completely engrained in a certain mindset that the idea of hop 'n' pops from 2500' is mind blowing even for a moderately experienced jumper, whereas I have done them regularly this winter.

Students can be trained for a number of different emergency situation. Our first jump course teachs that emergency below 2500', the student sits in the door with thumbs through silver and dive out as they pull their handle and go into an arch. Above that they listen to their instructor, which a student who can't do that shouldn't be jumping anyway. I guess when students are used to doing hop and pops from 4500' on jump #6, then they don't have the mindset of being frightened at leaving at such an altitude.

And while I agree that $50 for a repack isn't on peoples mind, there is still the fact that we have a two parachute system for a reason. There is the possibility of a malfunctioning reserve, and if I can safely try my main first, then I certaintly will in an instant, and I will wish the same for my students. The altitude where they will go from main to reserve will certainly be different than mine, but as their jumpmaster I'm there to tell them if such a situation arises.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kallend 1,623]

Did this at Skydive Chicago a few years ago ( maybe 1999 or 2000). Unannounced in any way, it was advertized and dirt dived as a tracking practice dive. Roger, however, had instructed the pilot to "fail" one engine of the Otter at approx 7,000, right above the airport.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Reginald 0]

My 2 bits (which you knew you would get one way or another) is that a live drill in the air is not a good option for a number of reasons. I do strongly support ground training on the issue!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

My 2 bits (which you knew you would get one way or another) is that a live drill in the air is not a good option for a number of reasons. I do strongly support ground training on the issue!

But what do you get out of ground simulation? It's bad enough doing an obvious drill in the air - no real panic to deal with. The B water training - one jump in the pool - doesn't do much, but at least it's a close simulation.

Is the best simulation one where everyone exits in quick succession, doing a 2sec clear and pull? If a plane had trouble at greater altitude, would that height be used to spread out people more?

[AMax 0]

Quote

That depends on where you were trained.

The emergency bailout drills I was taught did not make a distinction between low altitude or high.

1. Look at jumpmaster

2. Grab reserve handle

3. Bail out when JM says go

4. Pull reserve handle

With all due respect.
Since your profile indicates that you made 177 jumps in 92 years, I am afraid that your training method is a little bit outdated. Whom I am supposed to look at, what I am supposed to grab and what I supposed to deploy if I sit by the door of twin otter and hear pilot yelling everybody out at 5K?

Erika,

Opening elliptical main canopies in crowded airspace would be my concern.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Did this at Skydive Chicago a few years ago ( maybe 1999 or 2000). Unannounced in any way, it was advertized and dirt dived as a tracking practice dive. Roger, however, had instructed the pilot to "fail" one engine of the Otter at approx 7,000, right above the airport.

And you didn't wonder why they only wanted a $10 jump ticket for that load John?


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

a live drill in the air is not a good option for a number of reasons

What are those reasons?

[MarkM 0]

If you're going to do a realistic drill, then you're going to have a lot of jumpers exiting quickly. I'd think that this would be dangerous because of canopy opening proximity and also load balancing on the plane.

You'd probably get as much out of just doing hop and pops from 3k. I don't think some people are used to or comfortable with low altitude exits.