Reasons not to buy an AAD

[MotherGoose 0]

"But it's a choice. If I were to die because I didn't have an AAD it wouldn't really be any sillier than if I were to die because I mishandled a malfunction."

Thanks Wendy. People think an AAD is a free ticket to be complacent. Some even RELY on them. Nothing can be more outside of the purpose of AAD's. They are and SHOULD BE a choice. And they SHOULD NEVER be a backup plan.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[fasted3 0]

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And they SHOULD NEVER be a backup plan.

Mine is a backup plan for if I get knocked out.

What's yours?

But what do I know?

[indyz 1]

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Mine is a backup plan for if I get knocked out.

What's yours?

Mine is primarily a backup plan for when I fuck up. Safety against being knocked out is a distant second.

If I have a Cypres fire, I will almost certainly be fully conscious and physically capable of pulling my handles when it happens. I will probably have been so focused on turning points that I didn't hear my audible, or I was smoking it down trying to clear my airspace during a poorly-executed breakoff, or I fought line twists for too long, or I couldn't bring myself to give up on a spinning AFF student.

Skydivers tend to severely underestimate their own fallibility while at the same time grossly inflating the odds of being knocked unconscious in freefall. The Cypres saves list is eye-opening. Being honest with ourselves about how and why things go wrong is an important step in becoming safer.

[fasted3 0]

That's cool. My question was directed at those that don't have an AAD. Is there a backup plan for getting knocked out that does not involve an AAD?
Granted that it is a rare occourance, but it does happen. It was said that an AAD sholud never be a backup plan, so what else is there?

But what do I know?

[JohnDeere 0]

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I don't buy into the 'I do CRW' arguement. If you are at 750 feet doing 78 mph you are donkey deep in shit and probably need all the help you can get.

Why is it that CRW jympers think they are immune?

I am not immune. I exit at a minimum of 6k for two-way CRW. I only get out if the plane is cut and configured properly. I wear a hard helmet. I jump with very experienced jumpers, and if I don't, then I control the situation.

If I am doing CRW and have ended up doing 78mph at 750 feet, then I have cut away and should be getting a reserve out already or I am in such a tight spiral/wad that cutting my reserve loop is probably going to have no affect on the outcome. My reserve will be nicely contained along with all my appendages.

I, too, was raised in the era of undependable AAD's, watching people get drug of planes at 13K by their reserves, open in the cessna when the pilot opened his window, fire when radios were used, etc.

Trust me, I am more worried about the thousand other things that can happen to me in the plane, on exit, flying in competition mode for the two and a half minutes after exit, landing, and trying to walk back to the hanger while others try and kill me with their landings.

Do we have an incident in the last 25 years where a crw jumper would have been saved by an AAD?

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Here's one were a crew jumper was saved by one.

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21st August 2009
Skydive Zone New Zealand
Expert CYPRES
Cutaway after a 4 way CRW, bottom 2 where in a wrap which flung me out on cut
away unstable. I could not get to my reserve handle before CYPRES activation.

The jumper could have poss. got to reserve handle before impact, but i bet this jumper would consider it a save
http://www.cypres.cc/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=89&func=startdown&id=29&lang=en
This is the page for download of Cypres saves.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Do we have an incident in the last 25 years where a crw jumper would have been saved by an AAD?

There was a CRW guy that jumped up on an exit from a KA and hit the tail and died either from the tail strike or impact with no canopy out.

There was the Jimmy Koontz collision with Dead Steve(??) in AZ that may have benefited from an AAD.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,471]

>It was said that an AAD sholud never be a backup plan, so what else is there?

Having someone else pull for you, I suppose.

[JohnDeere 0]

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>It was said that an AAD sholud never be a backup plan, so what else is there?

Having someone else pull for you, I suppose.

Sweet plan Bill Ill stick with my Cypres I trust my friends, but not that much.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[topdocker 0]

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Do we have an incident in the last 25 years where a crw jumper would have been saved by an AAD?

There was a CRW guy that jumped up on an exit from a KA and hit the tail and died either from the tail strike or impact with no canopy out.

There was the Jimmy Koontz collision with Dead Steve(??) in AZ that may have benefited from an AAD.

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Both of those are maybes at best.

The first case, it is unclear if the tailstrike killed him or impact. No way of telling, according to people knowledgeable in the incident.

The second in AZ, they both landed under canopies that were entangled and damaged and probably were not at the threshold speed for an AAD to fire. Granted, if their reserves had come out, would the outcome have been any worse... no. I know from teammates on the jump, the collision was very violent, and could have caused the fatal injuries before they landed.

In the earlier one mentioned where the AAD beat the guy to his reserve handle coming out of a wrap: how long from cutaway to AAD activation was it? It staggers my imagination that someone would cutaway, fall long enough to gain the speed necessary to activate your AAD, hesitate long enough to allow it to fire, then be amazed it beat them to the pull.

In a wrap, I am more woried about my shit getting pulled for me, than me getting incapacitated. Covering handles, keeping lines away from snags, getting nylon off- all of that is way more important at the moment than not being able to get my reserve out.

If you feel you are safer jumping with an AAD, then by all means feel free. But, I do not feel the added expense, maintenance, and risk of having one are worth it to me. After 21 years of hardcore CRW competition, an AAD has never added anything to any of my skydives.

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Jump more, post less!

[Will_Evo 0]

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Thanks Wendy. People think an AAD is a free ticket to be complacent. Some even RELY on them

Someone is beign a bit of a drama queen

haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it.

I don't think you will ever meet anyone who regularly has a cypress fire, because they think it is fail proof, thats making a very gross assumption and overplaying the situation greatly.

You guys do realize that you are arguing against a safety device...made for safety?

Replace the word AAD and Cypress with the word reserve handle. Now how silly do we all sound. if you just don't want to spend the money, say it, but don't make arguments against a piece of equipment that saves lives, it sounds silly.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[mircan 0]

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Thanks Wendy. People think an AAD is a free ticket to be complacent. Some even RELY on them

Someone is beign a bit of a drama queen

haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it.

I don't think you will ever meet anyone who regularly has a cypress fire, because they think it is fail proof, thats making a very gross assumption and overplaying the situation greatly.

You guys do realize that you are arguing against a safety device...made for safety?

Replace the word AAD and Cypress with the word reserve handle. Now how silly do we all sound. if you just don't want to spend the money, say it, but don't make arguments against a piece of equipment that saves lives, it sounds silly.

-Evo

I know a person that, in "malfuncton" situation (flat spin), decided to stop fighting and just wait for the AAD. I witnessed the event. Also I heard at least about one more person that did the same. You know, stop fighting and just wait for it.
Could that maybe be categorized as relying on an AAD?

dudeist skydiver #42

[tjm 0]

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That's cool. My question was directed at those that don't have an AAD. Is there a backup plan for getting knocked out that does not involve an AAD?
Granted that it is a rare occourance, but it does happen. It was said that an AAD sholud never be a backup plan, so what else is there?

I don't have a back up plan. All I can do is try my best to prevent it and hopefully not hit someone on the ground. Pull or die.

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[skypuppy 1]

The Cypres saves list is way overblown. To begin with, if you read it over, close to 50% of the saves are tandems or students, who genereally wear aads anyway. Then, even though they say they don't list it unless it is a 'real' save, as they got into more recent years, there are saves listed where the victim actually had the handle in his hand, yet it is counted as a save. If you take out the 8-12% of saves that occurred during the transition from belly-band to leg-strap to boc, with twisted harnesses etc. that are not easily replicated with today's rigs, you're left with about 170 saves over the life of the list, or less than half.

The Cypres saves list is a marketing tool for the company and even for the associations such as the French national association who look to gov't and say -- see, we can make it idiot-proof....

Vigil and Argus lists are even worse.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it.

I don't think you will ever meet anyone who regularly has a cypress fire, because they think it is fail proof, thats making a very gross assumption and overplaying the situation greatly.
________________________________________________

And you know this because -- read the list, there are saves listed because the person decided to wait for it, just as some people are on the list more than once.

Who's the drama queen now?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[indyz 1]

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The Cypres saves list is way overblown. To begin with, if you read it over, close to 50% of the saves are tandems or students, who genereally wear aads anyway. Then, even though they say they don't list it unless it is a 'real' save, as they got into more recent years, there are saves listed where the victim actually had the handle in his hand, yet it is counted as a save. If you take out the 8-12% of saves that occurred during the transition from belly-band to leg-strap to boc, with twisted harnesses etc. that are not easily replicated with today's rigs, you're left with about 170 saves over the life of the list, or less than half.

The Cypres saves list is a marketing tool for the company and even for the associations such as the French national association who look to gov't and say -- see, we can make it idiot-proof....

Vigil and Argus lists are even worse.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make: most Cypres "saves" happen to jumpers who are fully conscious and physically capable of pulling their own handles. When you consider that reporting a save is completely voluntary, it is probably even worse. I'm guessing most "saves" as a result of stupid mistakes go unreported, whereas true saves (injured or unconscious jumpers) do get reported.

[skypuppy 1]

Like you said, you're guessing. I'm figuring that they do get reported, since the cutter needs replacing. And the fact someone is already in the act of pulling their handle means it isn't a save.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[faulknerwn 37]

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haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it.

Actually - YOU don't rely on it. If you read the Cypres Saves list - quite a lot of people have.

There was another incident a few years back too - a guy who openly admitted that he wasn't sure how he'd react in an emergency and said he wouldn't jump without a Cypres. He was in a 182 that had an engine problem at 1000 feet. FYI, the Cypres doesn't arm itself until 1500 feet. He jumped out and pulled nothing but the cutaway handle. He was relying on it to save his life because he didn't think he could handle an emergency. And he died because he was relying on it to do more than it could..

AADs aren't perfect either. Adrian Nicholaus died when his fired during a swoop. The recent fatality in Poland might imply some issues where a cutter which didn't cut the loop could cause you to not be able to open your reserve. I seem to remember an issue with Mirages a few years back and cutters and they had to move the location in the reserve packjob. Depending on the location of the cutter in relation to the pin and the pilot chute, a jammed cutter could prevent a reserve pc launch on some rigs.

AADs aren't perfect. They might save you, but they might kill you. Most people choose to have one because its more likely to save you than kill you. But there is a risk it could do either.. Don't fool yourself that there's not.

I do wonder if people are more careless if they have AADs. I've got 6500 jumps and never once been kicked or hit or anything in the air where I even got faintly dizzy. Most of the knocked out in freefall incidents I've read about could have been prevented with better planning on the ground.

[indyz 1]

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Like you said, you're guessing. I'm figuring that they do get reported, since the cutter needs replacing. And the fact someone is already in the act of pulling their handle means it isn't a save.

That's why I put "save" in "quotes." And reporting is completely voluntary since Cypreses began being retrofitted to field-replaceable cutters over a decade ago.

Edit: Aw hell, I can't believe I let myself get into an argument on the Internet. I've said my bit as clearly as I can say it. Unless something new develops, I'm out.

[BrianM 1]

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I know a person that, in "malfuncton" situation (flat spin), decided to stop fighting and just wait for the AAD. I witnessed the event. Also I heard at least about one more person that did the same. You know, stop fighting and just wait for it.
Could that maybe be categorized as relying on an AAD?

I know someone who was unable to deploy his main and went unstable when reaching for his reserve handle. He decided it would be better to get stable and let his AAD fire in order to ensure a clean deployment, than to pull it himself while unstable.

Yeah, that's right - he wasn't panicked or incapacitated by fear - he made a conscious, reasoned decision to sit there on his belly staring at the ground rushing up until his AAD fired.

He defended his decision afterwards, too. He really thought it was the best course of action he could have taken. As far as I know he never did change his mind.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[pchapman 262]

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I know someone who was unable to deploy his main and went unstable when reaching for his reserve handle. He decided it would be better to get stable and let his AAD fire in order to ensure a clean deployment, than to pull it himself while unstable.

He may be pretty screwed up, but I have to say it isn't that bad a strategy in the circumstances. He should be able to find his reserve handle, and do so without dropping out of belly to earth. But if he can't, at least he'll be in a good body position for opening* -- and AAD's really are pretty reliable.

(* Other than caveats about a chance of PC hesitation with too nice & flat a body position.)

[robinheid 0]

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I know a person that, in "malfuncton" situation (flat spin), decided to stop fighting and just wait for the AAD. I witnessed the event. Also I heard at least about one more person that did the same. You know, stop fighting and just wait for it.
Could that maybe be categorized as relying on an AAD?

I know someone who was unable to deploy his main and went unstable when reaching for his reserve handle. He decided it would be better to get stable and let his AAD fire in order to ensure a clean deployment, than to pull it himself while unstable.

Yeah, that's right - he wasn't panicked or incapacitated by fear - he made a conscious, reasoned decision to sit there on his belly staring at the ground rushing up until his AAD fired.

He defended his decision afterwards, too. He really thought it was the best course of action he could have taken. As far as I know he never did change his mind.

Exhibits A and B for the affirmative:

AADs interfere with natural selection.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[tkhayes 146]

there is no reason to NOT buy an AAD. More people suffer from your demise than just you - your family and friends.

Would you buy a car without seatbelts? Not in this day and age.

AADs save lives, regularly. No one deserves to die just because they made some small mistake.

[JerryBaumchen 1,080]

Hi tk,

Nice post. I used a AAD on ~35% of my total jumps & the other 65% were w/o one. And since I no longer jump, I do not have a dog in this fight; just an observer.

However, as I read these types of threads I have often wondered how the arguments would go if reserves were optional.

JerryBaumchen

[Arvoitus 1]

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Thanks Wendy. People think an AAD is a free ticket to be complacent. Some even RELY on them

Someone is beign a bit of a drama queen

haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it.

I don't think you will ever meet anyone who regularly has a cypress fire, because they think it is fail proof, thats making a very gross assumption and overplaying the situation greatly.

You guys do realize that you are arguing against a safety device...made for safety?

Replace the word AAD and Cypress with the word reserve handle. Now how silly do we all sound. if you just don't want to spend the money, say it, but don't make arguments against a piece of equipment that saves lives, it sounds silly.

-Evo

unneeded and unwanted cypres fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqaMGIqWe4

unneeded and unwanted vigil fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDUPAkuWP4Y

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[BrianM 1]

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I know someone who was unable to deploy his main and went unstable when reaching for his reserve handle. He decided it would be better to get stable and let his AAD fire in order to ensure a clean deployment, than to pull it himself while unstable.

He may be pretty screwed up, but I have to say it isn't that bad a strategy in the circumstances. He should be able to find his reserve handle, and do so without dropping out of belly to earth. But if he can't, at least he'll be in a good body position for opening* -- and AAD's really are pretty reliable.

(* Other than caveats about a chance of PC hesitation with too nice & flat a body position.)

Wow... really?

I guess there are two issues here: one is relying on a device to save you instead of doing it yourself; the other is sacrificing altitude for stability.

Frankly I can't imagine ever waiting for a device to save me at the last possible second when I could do it myself. If the AAD doesn't fire - by the time you realize it, it is too late to do it yourself. If it does fire, it still doesn't guarantee that the reserve will deploy in time (you hinted at this yourself). Even if it does, you are now under canopy extremely low, over who-knows-what terrain, etc and aren't guaranteed a safe landing.

I'll take my chances with the manual unstable deployment, thanks.

As an instructor, do you teach your students to sacrifice altitude for stability? Pull, pull stable, pull at the right altitude while stable?

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg