Landing on your rear risers

[AggieDave 6]

Prevention of having a brake line brake on opening? Well, good gear maintance is the first step, replacing worn lines before they get too worn. Same for your linesets.

This is another reason why you should pay attention while you back and if you always use a packer, pull your rig out once a month and do a good inspection, this is the perfect time to do your normal maintance anyways (you know, clean the cutaway cable, flex the 3-rings, etc).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rigging65 0]

You've got to remember, "practicing up high" isn't anywhere near the same as doing it within a few feet of the planet. You have nothing to compare your rates against at altitude.

Of course, getting a feel for how much you can take out of the risers before a stall is something that can certainly be practiced up high...but at the end of the day, a rear riser landing occurs near the hard stuff...and since you can't add power and go around, you've only got one shot at it...

This get's back to my original reply on this thread, if you don't think/can't land your canopy on rear risers, it's probably too small for you. Why? Because you don't have control over it in all phases. There's more to flying that pulling toggles, ask any CReW dawg or qualified HP canopy pilot about that!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[diablopilot 2]

I don't think there is one right answer, just the one that is right for you. Let me point out two thoughts that make my decision.

1) I do not believe that I should jump a main that I can not land with risers. (Exception for me being Tandems)

2) Your reserve is not just your second option, its your LAST option.

I would land it if it passes my control check.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Cajones 0]

Well said.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[DYEVOUT 0]

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You've got to remember, "practicing up high" isn't anywhere near the same as doing it within a few feet of the planet. You have nothing to compare your rates against at altitude.

Understood.

When I started AFF last summer, I was on a Manta 288, and it flew damn near the same on rears - as it did with toggles.

I hope I get a chance to fly the (rented) Sabre 230 on rears this weekend [weather].

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[JayhawkJumper 0]

You also might want to take into consideration the possibility of a big tear in the top of the canopy from the lineover. There has been one case I know of where the line sawed completely through the canopy, but this would obviously be a cutaway situation.

I still use the method from the first jump course:

1. Is it square?
2. Can I steer it?
3. Can I land it?

If it doesn't meet my criteria, by by, hello reserve.

[relyon 0]

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Let's say you have a stuck brakeline and have to cut it. Would you land your main on the rear risers or would you go for the reserve?
And what kind of canopy (high performance or not) would you do it on?

I'd land my main on rear risers. I often land that way as it is.

Bob

[AggieDave 6]

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I still use the method from the first jump course:

1. Is it square?
2. Can I steer it?
3. Can I land it?

Here's another point to think about. If you're having to keep constant input into a canopy to keep it flying straight, is it actually a controlable situation?
What if your strength gives out at 100ft? (if you're having to hold a riser down for straight flight). That could be pretty bad.

At the end of the day, we have to remember that no matter how many saves a rigger has, no matter how much you trust her/him, that rigger is still human and can make mistakes. Also, the entire reserve system was designed and built by people who might have also made a mistake (complete failure is a very very very very small chance).

Thus, my personal guideline is that if the canopy passes the test of 3's (see above), then I'm more then likely going to land it. Certain scenerios may differ, for instance, what if I knew I was way off the DZ and had to land in a small landing area with out my normal controls...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[USPA 0]

landing the main without brakes/steerling lines isn't what I talked about, I talked about CUTTING my steering lines....

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[rigging65 0]

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landing the main without brakes/steerling lines isn't what I talked about, I talked about CUTTING my steering lines....

Yes, but it kind of morphed into a discussion about rear riser landings instead

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Steel 0]

I had something like this happen to me in sept of 2001 on my VX-70 (@ 3.1). One brake line got jamned and I compensated with opposite riser and landed it that way. I must say I must say that was the stupidest thing I could have done and would never do that again. It hurt for a long time.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Jimbo 0]

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A guy at Cross Keys died trying it last summer.

His name was Seth Karp. Like most of us I think he deserves more than "A guy at Cross Keys".

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[faulknerwn 37]

I've got a multitude of mains (Lightning 113's, Prodigy 150, PD 150, Diablo 88, Triathalon 99, and a Cobalt 75.) The only one I would be concerned about landing with on rear risers is the Triathalon - and then only on a no-wind day. Its got a very short rear-riser control stroke before an abrupt stall. My Cobalt and especially my Diablo's are much longer.

If you've never played on rear risers - start now! Practice every jump on them until you feel very comfortable on them.

I've landed some strange configurations at times. I've broken various D-lines over the years - on a couple of times did a whole CRW dive and never even noticed. 5 or 6 years ago I landed a Lightning 126 with my retracted pilot chute tied into a knot around my leftmost 2 A &B lines (CRW wrap). I had to fly with the opposite toggle in half brakes or so, but I landed it and PLF'ed into a schoolyard at Perris without a problem. Learn how your canopy flies with all inputs... Its a life-saving skill.

I've had 12 or 13 reserve rides now. I'm not afraid of using my reserve. But its my absolute last chance. I'm not going to take a canopy which isn't going to break any bones and chop it and hope for the best. Reserves don't always work.

If you don't know how to fly your canopy on all control inputs LEARN. Starting next jump and continuing every single jump until you know. I'm not saying land with rear risers but fly it the whole way down on em until landing. Learn them, flare them, know it as well as you know your toggles. Practicing won't hurt you but it might save your life.

W

[skybytch 259]

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Practicing won't hurt you but it might save your life.

Guess what I'm doing this weekend.

[Casch 0]

Once you're comfortable with them at altitude, would it be smart to land with rear risers as practice?

I mean, practicing at altitude for 200 jumps never actually landing with them, and then choosing to land with them for the first time because of a broken line would be like learning to fly with a really good simulator and then being thrown into a real plane and being expected to fly well.

So what do you think the requirements should be before you can attempt a RR landing?

[Kris 0]

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So what do you think the requirements should be before you can attempt a RR landing?

Be comfortable with executing them smoothly & evenly at altitude and have a solid understanding of where the stall point is at using your rear risers would be the biggies.

I would also recommend that you first try it on a day that has a pretty decent amount of wind.

I have done a couple of rear riser landings on my Stiletto loaded at almost 1.4 and they are interesting, but do-able.

Also remember that some canopies will respond completely differently on rears than another of the same size but different model.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Casch 0]

When I try this (and I promise it won't be until I have a solid sense of control with risers, and I'll be notifying the DZO also) it will probably be on a Skymaster 290 loaded at .93-.95 and definately on a breezy day. I'm really suprised more people haven't landed rear risers for practice, I've wanted to for about a dozen jumps or so.

[weid14 0]

and it was a totally different situation......thanks Jim

[ralu 0]

To cut my loved one??? RESERVE

ralu

what would be a woman without her dreams....

[DJL 232]

"The only one I would be concerned about landing with on rear risers is the Triathalon - and then only on a no-wind day. Its got a very short rear-riser control stroke before an abrupt stall."

Wendy, would you say this is purely a function of the Triathlon or of the size of the Triathlon on which you were jumping?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[faulknerwn 37]

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"The only one I would be concerned about landing with on rear risers is the Triathalon - and then only on a no-wind day. Its got a very short rear-riser control stroke before an abrupt stall."

Wendy, would you say this is purely a function of the Triathlon or of the size of the Triathlon on which you were jumping?

I think its the size of mine. The bigger ones seem to be more docile. But I can't say that for certain because I'm not very familiar with the bigger ones - the individuals jumping them would have to figure out the control stroke.

I do know that I have accidently stalled my Tri on more than one occasions on toggles on landing - and I don't think I've done that on any of my other canopies. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do that (obviously on bigger ones) so it could just be the size of mine (or the length of the risers or who knows what else.)

W

[riggerrob 561]

One more suggestion about landing with rear risers: practice rear riser landings up high. Make a mental note of where your hands are when the canopy stalls. Then tell yourself to not pull your hands down quite that far.
Far better to slide a landing than stall in from ten feet.

[CRWBUDDHA 0]

Hey there look at a dead man walking........! go back to school and really pay attention this time.

Your canopy doesn't know where the ground is and doesn't know whether it hurts or not.......If you have no idea how to deal with problems on opening or flight, someone elses opinion about how you should do it is as stupid as your own canopy........

[Mad47 0]

Bruno,

People like you flying mains no bigger than PC, must be banned from canopy control forums

[apoil 0]

Quote

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A guy at Cross Keys died trying it last summer.

His name was Seth Karp. Like most of us I think he deserves more than "A guy at Cross Keys".

Jim

He also deserves a lot more than saying that he died attempting a rear riser landing because that is not at all what he did.

It is not even what was SPECULATED (and ALL we have on that incident is speculation) that he did.

What was SPECULATED was that he may have been flying with rear risers not realizing that a toggle had become unstowed, and that when he went for the toggles his canopy went into the hard spiral that he was unable to stop or correct.