Should you be charged for making a saftey call, and not jumping?

[yeyo 1]

This reminded me of our last boogie...
Clouds moved in when we were going up, about half the load decided to jump and the rest landed with the plane. I didnt jump. One of the guys that landed with the plane made a big scene demanding a refund, and of course he didnt get it. After that he came here to the forums to talk crap about how he got robbed at our boogie. And this is a guy that has many jumps, and has attended many boogies. Hes even staff on a veeery big DZ. hahaha jerk ,/,,

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[pchapman 262]

I wouldn't have even realized that there's been any change in policy, as I've jumped at that DZ a lot, and don't recall the issue coming up. Maybe it just did recently, so the DZO is clarifying things.

I'm talking about the specific case where someone on the load decides they had better not jump, while others do. It is a more common event to climb, get caught by clouds, have to jump from a lower altitude, and pay for the highest one went.

I've had times there where the whole load I was on came down because we couldn't get minimum altitude -- and we haven't been charged -- but only in special circumstances. That would have been with the 182's (not Caravan) when we had an informal agreement about the load, where we were not on the hook if we came down.

Normally, if the jumpers are really anxious to go up for a hop and pop but the weather still sucks, we're on the hook if we choose take the plane up. But sometimes the DZO is also eager to get things going, get S/L students back up in the air or whatever, so then a C-182 ceiling check load is informally agreed on where the jumper's aren't on the hook if we can't make 2500'. But that's an exception to the normal rules.

[ShayneH 0]

I live in Colorado, spitting distance from the Rocky Mountains/Continental Divide. There's two real dropzones in the state, both in proximity to each other and nestled along the foothills. Due to our geographic location, weather can change in literally 30 seconds. We've literally had tandem instructors exit with 0 ground winds, and by the time they are under canopy, 50mph+ micro bursts are coming out of nowhere.

Because of the rapid weather changes, both dropzones occasionally call the load back after it has taken off. And neither one charges jumpers. But that's just here I guess...

[Glitch 0]

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I can see him charging for it if the conditions were already very turbulent on the ground and I decided to try to jump anyways...

I've seen a couple of cases where the dzo made the call; radio'd the plane and instructed the pilot to advise the load of ground winds and only permit D license holders to jump, thereby causing a few folks to land with the plane. Only us knuckle heads that jumped got charged. In my view, the dzo was covering his ass(ets); preventing injuries to those who's ego was trying to cash checks their ass couldn't cover.

If the dzo calls the plane back then it's his dime, otherwise you pay for the ride.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[mrbiceps 0]

Okay what if just before boarding the winds go nuts and you walk back to the shed and the plane goes up without you. Do u get charged for that? There is an empty seat on the plane that another jumper could have used.

[Squeak 17]

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I live in Colorado, spitting distance from the Rocky Mountains/Continental Divide. There's two real dropzones in the state, both in proximity to each other and nestled along the foothills. Due to our geographic location, weather can change in literally 30 seconds. We've literally had tandem instructors exit with 0 ground winds, and by the time they are under canopy, 50mph+ micro bursts are coming out of nowhere.

Because of the rapid weather changes, both dropzones occasionally call the load back after it has taken off. And neither one charges jumpers. But that's just here I guess...

That's a diffferent thing
The DZO or DZSO (ST&A) calling a plane down is not that same as a refusal to exit.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[CornishChris 5]

I've been on loads at different DZs in the UK when they have offered the option to jump at cloud base or land with the plane. I always jump (so far, lowest 1800 feet), but if you don't you don't pay. In addition I only had to pay a low ticket £15, instead of £20 for a high.

Seems like the DZOs of the DZs I have jumped at are more generous than others on here. I tend to agree with most comments on here that you pay your money you take your chances...

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Joellercoaster 6]

I'm with others in the thread - I think you're both right.

The DZO is within his rights to charge you for the ticket - he wasn't making much from you as a fun jumper to start with, asking him to wear 20 bucks loss is no fairer than asking you to wear it. You got on the plane and used his fuel to get there.

However, not getting out if you don't feel safe about it is right too. Sure, you're out a jump ticket now, but you're also listening to your sensible half in the face of (financial) pressure to jump. This will stand you in good stead in the future.

There is another side to this too; like CornishChris I've jumped at places where the DZO doesn't charge people if the jumpmaster brings the plane down. This means there's pressure on the JM knowing he'll have to answer to the DZO later, but it does remove any kind of pressure on the less experienced/less assertive. On those loads though if we get down to cloudbase and it's jumpable, I'll get out anyway so at least the DZO isn't out my whole ticket.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Baksteen 84]

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We're actually paying $35 for 10,5 and $38 for 12,5. I have my own gear, that doesnt include anything but the ride to altitude. If you want to include rental gear, your looking at 50$ and the students usually pack it themselves

Well, you got your own gear - but what if you hadn't? Would you have had to pay equipment rental for that plane ride?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[brettski74 0]

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But if this guy is paying "nearly $40" then he's getting charged for gear rental too.

No gear rental. That's what a slot costs here. It used to be $35, but then the Ontario government converted over to HST, so an extra 8% sales tax got whacked onto just about everything and jump prices went up to $38 as a result. When the Canadian dollar was weaker against the USD, it wasn't so bad, but not with the CAD hovering at or just under parity, it's a little more sucky. If Frontier had a turbine, I suspect that they would be a very busy dropzone.

I you're renting gear, you'll be paying closer to $60 or more.

[Hvance 0]

Ouch. That's pretty bad.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[diablopilot 2]

You pay for the ride to altitude, the jump is free. You have the choice to not get on the airplane.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Guess this is standard and Ill have to get used to it :)

Now you really know why the oldtimers sit on the ground during marginal conditions.

[lekstrom10k 0]

I always tell people about "them being in a small plane". It s only a small plane if your not making the payments. When you dread a letter from FAA starting with "Before your next flight replace XXXXX.
Was the $i2k as in $12000?

[skipbelt 0]

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Yeah - most aircraft accidents involve the plane hitting the ground, so thank for the ride up Mr Bus Driver, but I'll make my own way back down.

When people ask me why I skydive, I tell them "Most aviation fatalities occur on landing... Its safer if I skip that part."

if by landing , you mean unsuccessful landing , you could say nearly all , otherwise the takeoff phase is statistically the most dangerous !

[theonlyski 3]

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Yeah - most aircraft accidents involve the plane hitting the ground, so thank for the ride up Mr Bus Driver, but I'll make my own way back down.

When people ask me why I skydive, I tell them "Most aviation fatalities occur on landing... Its safer if I skip that part."

if by landing , you mean unsuccessful landing , you could say nearly all , otherwise the takeoff phase is statistically the most dangerous !

But, takeoff fatalities usually are from the plane hitting something (usually the ground)... so, I count those as landings.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[pinkfairy 0]

You make weather considerations on the ground. This is something that you learn to do, and then it's easier to not have plane ride down. BTW how can you see that it's turbulent in the landing area from 12k?

Also: MANY of your safety calls in skydiving costs you money. I lost my freebag last year, but I'd rather pay for a new freebag and a repack that land the main I had.

This is an expensive sport.

I've ridden the plane down once because of hail, and I've jumped from 8k instead of 12 because of clouds once. It rarely happens, and it's an acceptable risk when it comes to cost for me.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[MorfiusX 0]

So, I have a question in regards to this.

Last week, a whole load of tandems was brought back in due to approaching storms. Do they all have to pay again? What if the DZO makes the call and not the jumper?

Honestly, I don't mind wasting a lift ticket in order to be safe, I'm just curious.

[sebinoslo 0]

I had the case during a competition earlier this summer where we were 2 teams on the first load. the pilot took a quick flight around and announce the cloud cover was at 5000". There are moutains reaching 2000" around the DZ so pull altitude is 3500". Some clouds seemed low and we asked him if it was 5000" which he confirmed once again.

On the ride up clouds were as low as 3000" and all the way to 10000". We decided that no one would jump and were not charged for it.

Had the pilot said that he wasn't sure about the clouds and that we could see for ourselves, would we have paid our slot. But since we based our climb on his words...

There was a weather holding for the next 2 hours after our failed load too...

[NWFlyer 2]

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So, I have a question in regards to this.

Last week, a whole load of tandems was brought back in due to approaching storms. Do they all have to pay again? What if the DZO makes the call and not the jumper?

Honestly, I don't mind wasting a lift ticket in order to be safe, I'm just curious.

No - students (including tandems) should be an exception to what everyone's saying here. When you're under the supervision of an instructor and it's that instructor (or a DZO/S&TA) who is making the call to jump or not, then you wouldn't pay. But once you're making your own calls ... it's up to you to absorb the cost of that call.

There are, of course, other exceptions where the DZO might make a call to bring the plane back down, but those are unusual circumstances like closing the landing area because of the need to bring in a life flight helicopter. Depending on the timing and the configuration of the DZ, I've seen jumpers sent to alternate landing areas or brought back down in that case. In that case if the plane's brought back down the DZO should just absorb that cost, but that's a rare exception.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Scrumpot 1]

I think he meant an ADDITIONAL $15 for the ride down.

That's how I read Chris' post anyway.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[ps5601 0]

Having jumped a a few DZs in multiple countries, the rules around the world are fairly standard for being charged. Experienced (licensed) jumpers make the call about the weather for themselves. If you chose to get on the plane then you pay regardless of if you jump. Students under the command of instructors are not considered able to make the decision themselves.

As always there are a few exceptions to this rule, the most common being that if the DZ calls you back down then you don't pay. Many DZs/countries have wind limits, and if the wind goes over these limits while you are on the plane and you are then re-called it is not your choice and so the DZ adsorbs this cost (nb to the OP turbulence is does not mean winds over limits on the ground so this would not count). However for clouds etc you are expected to be as able as the DZ to see the weather coming in, and so you make the choice to get on the plane or not based on what you can see. Aborting for clouds and getting a re-fund is rare.

The other big exception is competitions. Any FAI competition runs by the same rules - which state that when called by the DZ you MUST get on the plane or score a zero. HOWEVER, you may refuse to jump on the grounds of safety (which can include cloud cover or winds), and you will not be charged for this. Of course, if you are not happy with the conditions it is generally better to tell the meet director first so as to avoid the cost - but if they still tell you to get on the plane and have a look when you are up there then you have to get on the plane regardless.

Blue skies

Paul

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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They should charge you $15 for the ride down.

You pull that number out of thin air?

It takes more fuel to land with a load of people vs an empty plane. So cutting a deal for not jumping is above what's necessary. YOu pay for the slot - jump or ride.

So charging less for riding down is a very decent thing for a DZO to do but doesn't fall under "should".

But if this guy is paying "nearly $40" then he's getting charged for gear rental too. I think that's pretty crappy of the DZO. It wasn't cycled, nor does it need to be packed.

I ment $15 extra. I'm pretty damned aware for what it costs to operate an airplane.

[Zlew 0]

Many DZ's will be pretty explicit about the payment being for the ride up, and not the jump in the waiver. I knew one DZ that did that mainly for tandems, such that if someone decided at 13,500 feet that they didn't want to skydive, the dz didn't lose everything (nor did the Video/Tandem etc. that spent time with them).

[ridestrong 1]

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....and when i got to altitude, the plane was being thrown around by more turbulence than i've ever experienced before.

So you decided to stay in the plane...

My scariest skydiving experiences so far have been on the ride up..., and once riding the plane down in a hail storm.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----