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SRI85

GOpro with low jump number

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If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.



Really. So you think unbuckling your helmet, with a canopy snagged on it, going through freefall, will be easy to unbuckle????:S

More mid air rigging. Bad idea. Prevention. Good idea.



It depends on the system... the snag.... the person....

There are some snag situations were it would be easy and some not so easy. If I have a known horseshoe malfunction that is connected to my helmet cam and going directly over my reserve.. yeah I'm going to try to get my helmet off... even if I have just a few seconds to spare before hard deck, and sure as hell if I have 10-15 seconds to spare... :o



In this post you make some assumptions about snags being easy or hard to overcome.

Mid air rigging has killed many a jumper. I get the fact that you would try to get your helmet off. Anyone would. But I think you are falsely confident about getting a snag off of a helmet that isn't "cutaway" ready.

You have missed many points posted here by myself and others. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm glad I got your attention. Really.

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Josh.. just go do whatever the hell it is you want to do... what the fuck would us old people know anyway...

We are just trying to hold you back.[:/]

But GET cool video for Youtube and Moment of Impact



Jeanne, I'm just trying to discuss the subject at hand. While I agree with the general statements you usually make they tend to be the extreme, "You will die if X, Y, or Z happens", which is fine but most of us know that these things can kill you.

Fact is... WE ALL have the opportunity to die in this sport EVERY TIME we jump out of that airplane. We can discuss these subjects or just brush them off with off-topic replies and underhanded comments.

This went from legitimate discussion to everything but... It's unfortunate that when some discussions don't go the way some people like that it turns out this way.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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It depends on the system... the snag.... the person....

There are some snag situations were it would be easy and some not so easy. If I have a known horseshoe malfunction that is connected to my helmet cam and going directly over my reserve.. yeah I'm going to try to get my helmet off... even if I have just a few seconds to spare before hard deck, and sure as hell if I have 10-15 seconds to spare... :o



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In this post you make some assumptions about snags being easy or hard to overcome.



Ok, but that's a true statement is it not?

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Mid air rigging has killed many a jumper. I get the fact that you would try to get your helmet off. Anyone would.



I agree, just stating what I would "try to do" given time before hard-deck.

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You have missed many points posted here by myself and others. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.



Not at all... there's no problem when there's prevention. But people are going to keep wearing GoPro's so it doesn't do much good to just say 'don't do it'. It's like thinking your addressing teen pregnancy, by telling teens to not have sex.

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I'm glad I got your attention. Really.



and just for the record.. I haven't worn a GoPro since that cutaway video, over 120 jumps ago. :P


*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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Rich I really do commend the men and women like you who care.... who are out there scraping up the pieces of our freinds and families when shit happens. I can't do it... I used to try.. but my abilities to keep someone alive was just too low on the percentages.

The best I could do was a double femur... compund with some serious bone exposure with luckily just venous bleeding and not arterial. It was a very good thing that lifeflight got there in good time. I tried numerous times on lost causes... I knew better but I had to try to resuscitate.[:/]

At LP in 2008 I thought for sure I was going to see another as one guy chopped REALLLY low who looked like he was doing some mid air rigging as he was spinning lower and lower. I turned around and started walking away when he chopped so dreadfully low because I thought for sure he was going in. The last friend I watched die was a friend from Byron at Eloy on New Years Eve.... Sorry but I am just not into seeing the carnage any more.

I really want to just shut up and not give advice based on the many years.. and many friends I have lost... its just not working.B|

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Edited to delete...I've come to realize these forums are ridiculous. Any time I come on here its always (even though there is sometimes good advice that I have received and accepted) someone looking for a way to bash someone. Trolling the forums looking for the first person they can correct, fix, or otherwise humiliate. It's not worth the other 80% of bullshit you read to get the 20% of good out. I can get that 20% good from the DZ instead.

I am a skydiver, I love doing it, I know I am on my way to being a proficient flyer, evidence from those I jump with and the analyzing of my jumps tells me this. Why do I need every skydiver around the world to tell me otherwise? Anyways, I'm deleting my account(if a mod could please do that for me)...see you around DZ's.

-Evo
Zoo Crew

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If I have a known horseshoe malfunction that is connected to my helmet cam



A known horseshoe? How would you know? By virtue of the problem itself, your vision or the limits of your vision will be comprimised. You can't see the back of your head in any situation, and with a camera snag your ability to move your head to look around will be comprimised.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that you 'just do this' or 'just do that', but in real life it;s never that easy. You yourself cutaway from an unsnagged camera helmet if I'm not mistaken. Who in their right mind would have ever suggested you lose an unsnagged helmet? Nobody would, but in the real world that's exactly what you did.

The girl who had both shoulders pop out of the sockets (recently in NJ) is a great example. That thread had all sorts of monday morning quatrebacking about what to do with dislocatesd shoulder(s) in freefall. When the girl got around to posting her account of the incident, it turns out she wasn't even aware that her shoulders were dislocated. All of the talk about dislocated shoulder protocols was for naught because she wasn't aware that was her problem, and even if she knew those protocols, probably wouldn't have gone to them as she wasn't thinking about dislocated shoulders. She was thinking about not dying.

It's never as easy as you think it is. You'll never do as well as you think you will. Expect everything to be harder than you think, and that you will fuck up whatever you should be doing. If you can account for those two factors, and still see a survivable situation, you'll be fine. If you attempt to cut it any closer than that, expect reality to bitch slap you in the face right before impact.

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Ridestrong,
I think you're missing the point due to all the rhetoric...
Yes, anything in skydiving can kill you.
but taking one thing at a time, and going back to the basics for each thing new...that's a conservative, thoughtful approach.

Like...for your first wingsuit jump. Taking off the iPod, removing the camera, stepping back to the basics. Mastering the wing, then putting the camera back on.

I didn't wear a camera on a wingsuit jump til I had around 100 wingsuit jumps. Too conservative? Perhaps.
I didn't wear a still until after I had around 100 video jumps.
Too conservative? Perhaps.
I added a ringsight around 30 video camera jumps. Maybe too conservative, maybe not.

Point being...one thing at a time, and when you go into something new, step back to the most basic means of doing that new thing. It's just common sense, but unfortunately common sense isn't so common.
I wish I'd realized you were who you are in Moab. Would have enjoyed spending a few mins chatting.

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Ridestrong,
I think you're missing the point due to all the rhetoric...
Yes, anything in skydiving can kill you.
but taking one thing at a time, and going back to the basics for each thing new...that's a conservative, thoughtful approach.

Like...for your first wingsuit jump. Taking off the iPod, removing the camera, stepping back to the basics. Mastering the wing, then putting the camera back on.

I didn't wear a camera on a wingsuit jump til I had around 100 wingsuit jumps. Too conservative? Perhaps.
I didn't wear a still until after I had around 100 video jumps.
Too conservative? Perhaps.
I added a ringsight around 30 video camera jumps. Maybe too conservative, maybe not.

Point being...one thing at a time, and when you go into something new, step back to the most basic means of doing that new thing. It's just common sense, but unfortunately common sense isn't so common.
I wish I'd realized you were who you are in Moab. Would have enjoyed spending a few mins chatting.



Good advice...

I'm pretty sure you were on one of the same loads as one of my wingsuit jumps, also wingsuiting. I would have liked to talk to you as well, I came by your tent a few times but you weren't there.. granted I didn't stake it out ;).

I had 3 very fun and safe wingsuit jumps, and was glad my first flights could take place in Moab. Are you going to be out in CO for the wingsuit state record next week?
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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So your saying, whatever you write is correct and everyone that says anhything else is bashing or humiliating you.

ok.

Will, as i wrote in my post, yes on a skydive i would agree.
But this accident was not a skydive.
You are correct, cameras is a distraction.
But when i do a hop n pop, im not sure i would say the camera is that much of a distraction.
Sure i could lose altitude awareness on a hop n pop, but its more likely to happen when i do a full altitude jump.

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>But when i do a hop n pop, im not sure i would say the camera is that
>much of a distraction.

People have been distracted in the door and ended up going far past their spot due to camera distractions.

People have forgotten safety equipment (helmet, goggles) because they were distracted by a camera.

People have misrouted their chest straps -and even forgotten to put them on - because they were distracted by a camera.

People have flown into fences and forgotten to flare because they were trying to "video their shadow."

People have done hop and pops and landed out because they were distracted by trying to video someone under canopy.

People have landed downwind because their cameras distracted them enough that they did not pay attention to the wind direction.

People have had cameras break off due to riser strikes - and had them entangle in their brakes.

All of those do not require any freefall to be a problem.

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True.

I have seen most of those things happen with people that does not have camera aswell.

I dont want to say cameras are not a distraction, they are!
But, i do belive that the camera gets alot of the blame for "stupid things".
If one would use a new pair of shoes on a jump that would also be a distraction because "did i tie them hard enough", "dont f* up the landing", etc, but when that guy misrouts his cheststrap everyone will just point it out as him beeing stupid and perhaps have a "laugh" about it.

But Bill, im not arguing about cameras beeing a distraction or not.
Because i know they are.
But im just saying most of those things can happen without cameras or when other new gear is added but the camera is the only thing that is pointed out.

I can admit i forgot my altimeter once. Was it because of my camera?
Could be, but i dont think so.
I always keep my gloves in the helmet but i showed my gloves/viso to another jumper but placed the gloves next to my helmet instead when we had finnished the talk.
Grabbed the helmet and walked of to the plane, cameras fault or stupid skydiver?
I noticed it before i got to the plane so i just walked back and got my gloves/alti.

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People have misrouted their chest straps -and even forgotten to put them on - because they were distracted by a camera.



Actually, in the days of the belly mounted VHS-C recorder with a separate camera on the helmet, when you had to build your own bag to carry the bulky recorder in it was considered 'general wisdom' to construct that bag in such a way that you had to have a chest strap (and therefore a rig on your back) to keep it in place. It was a sure way to prevent you from gearing up for a camerajump and FORGET YOUR RIG on that skydive.

For all the newbies that are reading this and go 'WTF?!?!': I know of one Dutch cameraflyer that ended up in the plane on his way to altitude who was alerted by radio that his parachute-rig was still standing next to the manifest. I know of another cameraflyer in the USA that actually jumped with a tandem with just the jumpsuit, recorder & camerahelmet - no rig on his back.

While Murphy's first law ('when it can happen, it will') has a tremendous potential to kill you in this game, luckily his second law ('when it can not happen it will not') is there to rescue the young afficionados...
B|

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I have seen most of those things happen with people that does not have camera aswell




In that case, do you think camera would be an asset or a liability? If those can happen without a camera, the possibility of them happening with a camera surely must be higher than without.

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I have seen most of those things happen with people that does not have camera aswell




In that case, do you think camera would be an asset or a liability? If those can happen without a camera, the possibility of them happening with a camera surely must be higher than without.



Offcourse it has to be on video, what where you thinking Dave?? ;)

Im not in any way trying to minimize the dangers of cameras but im just saying a new altimeter would probably have the same effect as a camera.
Especially if you switch from analog to digital as some people have the fear of them not beeing reliable (dont want to start that discussion here, im just naming it).

But if we get back to the subject that was discussed from the begining.
Does the camera distract you when you have a short freefall?
If we only focus on the time in freefall, If you know you will have a max 3 seconds delay, does the camera distract you in freefall?
My opinion is that it does not distract me when i do a hop n pop as i know i have to pull immediately. But then again there is no way i know if it does or does not untill something bad happens. :S

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>But im just saying most of those things can happen without cameras
>or when other new gear is added but the camera is the only thing that is
>pointed out.

Agreed. Many things can be distractions. Cameras are an unusually insidious distraction because:

1) They require operation (they have to be turned on and off)
2) They are generally complex, with several controls (even the Gopro in its protective case has two buttons)
3) They require attention during critical parts of the skydive - just before exit, in freefall, after opening.
4) They are not needed to skydive safely.

> but im just saying a new altimeter would probably have the same effect as
>a camera.

I don't think that's the case. Most students start training with altimeters, so reading altimeters is part of a student's dive flow from jump #1. They do not require operation; they just work. (Some have different modes, but if you just leave it alone, it works just as well.)

Now, if you said that using a cellphone or video game might have the same effect as a camera I would definitely agree; it's a constant distraction, it's not needed for safety reasons, they require manual operation etc.

CAN you (for example) text and skydive safely? Yes, if you have the experience to deal with multiple distractions, have thought through things like how to deal with the thing during a mal, are jumping with people who make that lack of attention part of the dive etc. But again, it needs to be planned, and it's not something that someone with 80 jumps should try.

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Agreed. Many things can be distractions. Cameras are an unusually insidious distraction because:

1) They require operation (they have to be turned on and off)
2) They are generally complex, with several controls (even the Gopro in its protective case has two buttons)
3) They require attention during critical parts of the skydive - just before exit, in freefall, after opening.
4) They are not needed to skydive safely.
[/Reply]

Very true.

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I don't think that's the case. Most students start training with altimeters, so reading altimeters is part of a student's dive flow from jump #1. They do not require operation; they just work. (Some have different modes, but if you just leave it alone, it works just as well.)



I think i have to disagree.
~95% of my jumps has been with a Viso, and the reason i bought a Viso instead of a analog altimeter is because i really dont like analogs and dont trust them as much as a digital.
If i where to jump with a analog altimeter im pretty sure i would be distracted, i would probably want to compare my altimeter with others 100 times on the planeride up.
This is ofcourse just my gut feeling how i think i would react to it, it could also be that im just fine with it and nothing would happen.
But i just have a feeling i would be nervous about jumping a analog again.


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CAN you (for example) text and skydive safely? Yes, if you have the experience to deal with multiple distractions, have thought through things like how to deal with the thing during a mal, are jumping with people who make that lack of attention part of the dive etc. But again, it needs to be planned, and it's not something that someone with 80 jumps should try.



No i dont think i can, and i have no intention of trying :P

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Just a comment about camera helmet cutaways...
I spent hours talking to some very experienced (5,000 or more camera jumps) camera flyers when I decided to start jumping camera. I went thru several rebuilds/modifications to build a good (safe) setup. I posted the build here asking for ideas/advice. It's still not perfect.

One suggestion that made me think went something like this....
"It's really hard to cutaway a helmet with a broken neck! Spend your effort in making your helmet as snag proof as possible”.

Regardless of your jump #'s or experience. Talk with the experienced (Old Farts if you like) camera flyers. More importantly, LISTEN to them. We have much to learn from them.
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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While I respect all of you having gone through the history, changes and loss of friends the skydiving has brought throughout the years. Things have changed, get over it. The direct involvement/distractions of jumping with a small format camera on your head have lessened. Not everyone is trying to get the shot, or spending 15 minutes gearing up the camera and cuing tape. Go pros, contours and the like can and regularly are, at least for the people I jump with, set it and forget it video loggers capturing inside video. Also they have made a great evaluation tool for events during our jumps and being able to point out, Hey! Maybe that wasn't so smart, don't do that again or that worked well. Not everyone can set it and forget it, some people will pull late because they were trying to remember if they locked the car when they got to the dz mid jump. Only you and the people you jump with know which one you are. I've jumped with people that have been wearing one since their first solo with no issues and one person with nearly 200 jumps I told I wouldn't jump with again if he brought the camera as he was clearly trying to play videographer instead of group skydiver. Some people shouldn't even wear them for things like skiing, I witnessed a guy so distracted by his camera that he skied straight in to a lift tower!!!

As for snag hazard of course they are, I prefer the HD contour for this reason (to bad it has high speed scanning issues at Freefly speeds...). But I will argue (probably in vain) that the event that occured in australia is EXTREMELY unlikely on a skydive. She was handheld, with very low airspeed and released the PC in a position that just shouldn't happen on a skydive where the jumper pitches in a proper belly to earth position. Had a Skydiver managed to get the bridle stuck on the go pro there is a much greater chance the mount would have sheared depending on how much leverage was exerted (whether it's near the base of it or not...) due to the shear forces involved with a terminal deployment. Apples to oranges, remember Base Jumping is not Skydiving...

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Have you ever seen the video of the skydiver that got his bridle wrapped around his ring site?

Of course you haven't, if you did, you wouldnt have the opinion you do.

I suggest you find it and watch, its scary.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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That's not at all what he's trying to say, nice try at twisting his words though. I think it's pretty clear that he said 80% of the time these threads turn into bullshit becuase you have trolls like Morne and dipshits like Ridestrong (cool guy that disconnects his helmet before cutaway) that post just to post bullshit.

You don't know what you don't know. So if you have 67 jumps and have never jumped camera, STFU and go give your .02 cents in the Bonfire.
ZC OG

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Nope haven't seen it, it's not on YouTube so it didn't happen :D. got a link? I didn't say its not possible or that it will for sure break off. But like i said before, MUCH less involved then being fully kitted out to FILM a skydive. Cant say Ive seen anyone with a ring site (metal arm, bolted to helmet, that just sounds like a dumb idea...) and a gopro. If i did i would be sure to mock them mercilessly!

All that being said, your not gonna see me base jumping with a shark fin on my head, if i ever find myself owning a gopro it'll be on a modified mount. Contradictory? Yeah maybe, Its all about personal decisions right? You can wear one if you want...

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Please, right now, while you know everything -- write it all down so that you don't forget when you get all that stupid experience.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I'm going to tell this story that I've told before because I think there's a lesson in it. I'm not directing this at any particular person, but it relates to the "can you get your helmet off fast enough?" question.

When I was at around 210 jumps, I started jumping a Sony CX7. This was before GoPros and Contours were available. I got a shiny new 2K Composites helmet. Clearly, I knew what I was doing, because I had more than 200 jumps, right? :S Well, it turns out the video was crap, because I never knew where to have my head pointed. So I did what anyone would do - I added a ring sight. Because I wanted it to break off, it was attached with a nylon bolt and nut.

So no shit, there I was, at the end of an otherwise uneventful free fall. It was probably my 225th jump. I pitched, and as I was in line stretch, the steering lines caught on the ring sight. My head was pinned to the side, but I actually couldn't tell what was going on at the time - all I knew was that my head was twisted to the side, it hurt, and I was in a serious spiral.

I panicked. I knew I didn't have a good canopy over my head, so I did what I was trained to do - for my first cutaway! So I went "Reach red, pull red, reach sil-FUCK!!!!" The main canopy had detached from my rig (as it was supposed to do) and my RSL (different conversation, yes, but we'll talk about that later) had released my reserve. Great situation, right?

Except the main was still attached to my helmet.

And my helmet was still on my head.

I had a horseshoe because I was a dumb ass and didn't seek out good advice before putting a camera helmet on.

I never asked an experienced camera flyer how I should change my emergency procedures. And when the time came, I was too busy panicking and remembering my AFF training to think "shit, I need to cut the helmet away!".

So no shit, there I was, my weight suspended almost entirely by my neck. For those without a medical background, this is an ill-advised thing to do. By just about all accounts, I should be dead.

Thankfully, the helmet itself gave way. It basically failed - the cutaway was never pulled. It was just too much strain on the helmet. I was really, really lucky.

The video helmet and camera were recovered, still attached to the main. The last 2 minutes of footage show it spiraling under a (main) streamer - and documented the fact that I was an idiot.

* * *

So when I hear about inexperienced jumpers putting on a GoPro and not worrying about it, all I can say is that I hope the Fates like you as much as they seemed to like me that day. If you INSIST on being a dumbass like I was, then (a) get a camera helmet that has a cutaway; (b) talk to an experienced camera guy about how you're going to change your emergency procedures - and practice them in the hanging harness; (c) spend time with gaffers tape to do your best to minimize snags; and (d) wear an audible, because you ARE going to go low as a result of "trying to get the shot" (that's another story) - it's a distraction because you will NOT "turn it on and forget it" (that's as big of a lie as "just the tip").

* * *

Good luck and be safe, all.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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That's not at all what he's trying to say, nice try at twisting his words though. I think it's pretty clear that he said 80% of the time these threads turn into bullshit becuase you have trolls like Morne and dipshits like Ridestrong (cool guy that disconnects his helmet before cutaway) that post just to post bullshit.

You don't know what you don't know. So if you have 67 jumps and have never jumped camera, STFU and go give your .02 cents in the Bonfire.


Why am i a troll? Real name , real info , real questions.

And this is a forum... do you know what a forum is?

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