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SRI85

GOpro with low jump number

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>Getting a proper briefing about pitching your head down and rehearsing
>such deployments is a good start right?

Well, and a lot of other things - yes!

>The contour will be better suited for skydiving , much lower profile . GO
>Pro sits WAY to high up.

Why does the height concern you?

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>WTH sort of body position are you in that you throw a bridle over the top
>of your head?

Low airspeed, unusual bridle routing due to wingsuit (maybe), long bridle, throw forward instead of out to the side.



Eh? That would quite possibly be the most difficult way of getting a bridle over the top of your head that I can think of.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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It was a low handheld jump. So the PC starts right by your head.

eta....looks like there was a slight crosswind from right to left, which depending on the delay can blow your pc and bridle right into your helmet. I have had it happen before.



Yep, if you're taking a really short delay it's nice to make sure you're throwing the damn thing up.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Well, up is one thing, but if you toss it *forward* while belly toward the ground, it's easy to get it under you. Head low, same thing. It is nice to toss the PC up or up and forward but it doesn't always happen. You can take a 2 there, but most seem to take a 1/2 to 1 1/2.

I have about 37 jumps from the exact tower so far, Short delays of 1/2 second are common there.

Many people I've seen jump (not just at the Alor Setar Tower), hold the pilot chute right next to their ear on their shoulder. The slack in the bridle is fairly prominent. I'm not surprised a bridle finally wrapped a go pro and I have every intention to modify my set up.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I'm new (and arguably dumb) so don't flame me over this question......

Go Pro is a cheap HD camera that performs well for the price. Reason for popularity, yes?

If someone opts for the go pro due to price point it's unlikely that they will invest in a more "snag free" housing for the go pro because it cost more, yes?

Does this make the arguments surrounding how to make the go pro more snag free more or less academic?



No dear... not dumb

Yes quite so... But I think the REAL driving force.... is "if there is no video it did not happen".... gotta look cool ya know.

Getting cool video or film... has been killing skydivers for many many years. I remember a guy by the name of Dick Beaudin( Not sure of the spelling) that I used to jump with who had a camera snag issue in the late 1970's.

He was jumping a 16 mm film camera back in the 1970's at Greene County in Xenia and I lost track of him after I left Wright-Patt in 1977

If anyone remembers the details of that.. I could never find any info other than it broke his neck.

Always remember... this shit can kill you. What you don't know about this shit can kill you. No matter how good you believe you are..this shit can kill you. Adding more ways to to kill you to this shit can kill you even faster. Dont get in a rush to do shit that can kill you[:/]

Edited to add

BUT... if after all that... and you do decide to do stupid shit... ( not you the collective you) IF you are going to do stupid shit that others tell you is a really bad idea.... for FUCKS SAKE get cool video so everyone can watch your death on one of the "reality" shows like Moment of Impact or some such

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...what will 10 - 15 extra seconds buy you when your bridle is tangled with your small camera and you got no means to cut it away???

O




1. You may be able to untangle it.

2. You may be able to remove the helmet and untangle, or cutaway if not a base jump.


An extra 10-15 seconds can be quite a bit when trying to sort out a mal.



Really? I don't see 10 - 15 seconds as a lot ... especially when you have to deal with unbuckling your helmet that hasn't been fitted with a cutaway system ... Perhaps I'm a slow old lady while all the young cool dudes have super-fast reflexes (i.e. mad skillz :| ) ...

O

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...what will 10 - 15 extra seconds buy you when your bridle is tangled with your small camera and you got no means to cut it away???

O




1. You may be able to untangle it.

2. You may be able to remove the helmet and untangle, or cutaway if not a base jump.


An extra 10-15 seconds can be quite a bit when trying to sort out a mal.



Really? I don't see 10 - 15 seconds as a lot ... especially when you have to deal with unbuckling your helmet that hasn't been fitted with a cutaway system ... Perhaps I'm a slow old lady while all the young cool dudes have super-fast reflexes (i.e. mad skillz :| ) ...

O



Mid air rigging.:S[:/]B|
Prevention, not 120mph cures.

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In this instance another 5 seconds and we would not be having this particular discussion. From what I read she was able to work the snag out, but the canopy did not fully inflate before impact.

This thread had started to reinforce the idea that snag was not the primary concern with low jump numbers and a go pro (distraction being the primary concern)....has that changed? Any other known snag incidents with a go pro?

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...what will 10 - 15 extra seconds buy you when your bridle is tangled with your small camera and you got no means to cut it away???

O




1. You may be able to untangle it.

2. You may be able to remove the helmet and untangle, or cutaway if not a base jump.


An extra 10-15 seconds can be quite a bit when trying to sort out a mal.



Really? I don't see 10 - 15 seconds as a lot ... especially when you have to deal with unbuckling your helmet that hasn't been fitted with a cutaway system ... Perhaps I'm a slow old lady while all the young cool dudes have super-fast reflexes (i.e. mad skillz :| ) ...

O



Yeah.. I am thinking 10 to 15 sec down where I am usually pulling ( ok I am old school and do suck it down to 2000') can put me into a realllllly bad place. I have a cutaway on both of my camera helmets... I practice chopping THAT sucker too:)

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Would a large format camera , or more experience or know how have helped?

[:/]

RIP

Freak accident



The GoPro is one major snagpoint, other cameras would perhaps not be as much of a problem.
This is of course speculations but nobody can argue that even if they are smaler cameras (GoPro, Contour, Drift etc.) they are (usually) a much bigger snaghazard.

Condolences



Who are you kidding? Larger cameras(Not in a box and especially with stills) are much larger...making them a much larger snag point. The GP is small, and (usually) just mounted by a piece of 3M tape. If a GP was to get snagged, I'm willing to bet it would get ripped off in most cases (also because I have seen and heard of this happening at least 6 times).

I understand that this BASE jump had a snag on a GP, but what position was she in when she pulled? Was the GP screwed to her helmet? Anyways, my point here is this, and I think most old timers can agree, the major hazard with a small format camera is NOT the snag hazard, it's the distraction. I understand this has happened a few times, but compare it with the snags on larger format cameras and the GP's snags pale in comparison.

-Evo



No im not kidding.

1.
How often do you see larger cameras without boxes/cages?

2 This was a hand deployed jump, why would anyone use a still camera on a hand deployed?

3 Larger yes. More snag hazard. NO!
Look at the GoPro and compare it with other cameras at the DZ, im (almost) willing to bet my life on you wont find a more snag hazardous mount with the horrible shape and the screw mount thing.

4 3M tape might not hold against 120 mph, but this is not 120 mph.
This is still a hand deployed jump. And there is (obvously) not enough force from the PC to ripp it off.

5 I cant comment on the distraction part (since im not a BASEjumper), but i dont think that is as much of an issue when you do a low base jump, rather than a skydive where you actually have to remember to pull.

6 The boxes/cages that bigger cameras use have rounded shapes which make it less likely a PC will wrap around/snag a camera.
A GoPro that has a inverted "coneshape" and lots of sharp edges is not ideal.
Also if the PC hits a larger shape it would be easier to "bounce" of than snag.


I would somewhat agree with you if we where talking about a 120(+) mph skydive, that a GoPro is not much more of a snag hazard if everything is going as planned.
But here we are talking about a low BASE jump, hand deployed, in crosswind.
No, i dont agree with you and im not kidding

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I have about 37 jumps from the exact tower so far, Short delays of 1/2 second are common there.



I dont know the exact math, but i think its around 450-475ft which is really quite tall. Is the landing area quite far away that people are taking a 1/2 second?

These kind of heights people are usually stowed and taking a healthy delay. Also I know when i jump something hand held in a cross wind, regardless of the direction i try to take a healthier delay so my vertical speed is greater than the cross wind.
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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Exit point 100 or so feet lower than actual height. There are obstacles directly below and around the tower including poles, vendors, people.... If the wind was up, you needed time to over fly trees and wires, perhaps take it into a object congested area. It's a great tower, but it's not generally one to take a phat delay.

A 2 was actually ok much of the time but most people didn't do that unless the conditions were just right. A usual delay seemed 1 to 1 1/2 hand held. Marta was the only person I saw go stowed and she took about a 1. I think she went hand held from then on.

We don't need to tie up this thread with details about the tower so I'll send you a link to an overhead map view.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Experience or a larger camera wouldnt solve this fatality ,no matter how you look at it.



Experience might have, in that the more aware you are of your 'parts', the less likely you are to to get them tangled up with each other. Additionally, if the crosswind was a factor, than more BASE experience might have added the crosswind, and how it apllies to a camera, to her list of pre-jump considerations.

All of that aside, you have missed my point entirely. The new jumpers who believe that a GoPro is an acceptable camera for a newbie hold this belief based on the fact that it's a small camera that doesn't seem (to them) to present a snag hazzard. Of course, the more experienced jumpers are quick to point out that in addition to the snag-factor, cameras also introduce a distraction to the process of making a safe skydive.

Back to the newbies that don't think the GoPro presents a snag-hazzard, they choose to ignore the suggestion that a GoPro also adds a distraction, and more or less use their conclusion that it does not create a snag-hazzard as their justification for jumping a GoPro. They don't believe that the idea of a distraction is valid, or that it would not apply to them. So the distraction thing is out, and the snag deal isn't a problem, and presto-chango, they feel they are ready to jump a camera.

Now this incident proves that the snag-factor is real, even with a tiny little GoPro. I believe that a larger camera would have only created a larger hazzard, and don't buy the idea that a box around a bigger camera would have made this a non-issue. However, the real point is that the small camera DID create a hazzard that resulted in a fatality.

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So you are basically saying "never ever where a camera if you want to be safe" ?



Yes, that is what I'm saying. Adding anything on top of the basic equipment needed to make a jump can subtract from the safety of your jump. The only way to ensure that a camera never distracts you from your jump or snags any part of gear is to never wear a camera. Jumping a camera of any kind is adding risk to your skydive in several different ways, and if you are not preparred to deal with them, the consequences can be dire.

It may seen like a revolutionary concpet to you, given your time in the sport and the state of video cameras when you started jumping, but not everyone intends to, or has the desire to, ever jump a camera of any kind. Before HD cameras were small enough to stick to any helmet, and cheaper than a weekend at the DZ, flying a camera required a significant investment, and as such you generally had 'camera flying' in mind when you got into it. Your sights were set higher than POV video, so the pool of 'interested applicants' was significantly smaller than today.

Go back another notch, before MiniDV, and the pool was even smaller because the gear was just as expensive, and three times the size and weight of MiniDV.

The point is that jumping a camera is an added risk to any skydive, regardless of the camera, jumper, or intent of the jumper. Those considering it should know that the GoPro only solves two problems with camera flying, those being A) it lowers the cost of the equipment, and B) it lowers the weight of the camera helmet. The possible distraction it adds to your skydive, and the snag-hazzard it creates (as evidenced by this incident) are both alive and well, and no different than any other video set-up out there.

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...what will 10 - 15 extra seconds buy you when your bridle is tangled with your small camera and you got no means to cut it away???

O




1. You may be able to untangle it.

2. You may be able to remove the helmet and untangle, or cutaway if not a base jump.


An extra 10-15 seconds can be quite a bit when trying to sort out a mal.



Really? I don't see 10 - 15 seconds as a lot ... especially when you have to deal with unbuckling your helmet that hasn't been fitted with a cutaway system ... Perhaps I'm a slow old lady while all the young cool dudes have super-fast reflexes (i.e. mad skillz :| ) ...

O



If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.



I agree! If you have bridle wrapped around your camera and you can't get your helmet off quickly, you have huge problems! Your problems are so big that you should skip unbuckling and just go ahead and pull the cutaway handle that's surely installed on your helmet if you're jumping a camera! Because everybody that jumps a camera of any size knows damn well that the helmet's buckle probably isn't designed to release under the load the helmet is likely experiencing during an entanglement.

That's what you meant, right?

Dave

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...what will 10 - 15 extra seconds buy you when your bridle is tangled with your small camera and you got no means to cut it away???

O




1. You may be able to untangle it.

2. You may be able to remove the helmet and untangle, or cutaway if not a base jump.


An extra 10-15 seconds can be quite a bit when trying to sort out a mal.



Really? I don't see 10 - 15 seconds as a lot ... especially when you have to deal with unbuckling your helmet that hasn't been fitted with a cutaway system ... Perhaps I'm a slow old lady while all the young cool dudes have super-fast reflexes (i.e. mad skillz :| ) ...

O



If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.



Really. So you think unbuckling your helmet, with a canopy snagged on it, going through freefall, will be easy to unbuckle????:S

More mid air rigging. Bad idea. Prevention. Good idea.

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If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.



Really. So you think unbuckling your helmet, with a canopy snagged on it, going through freefall, will be easy to unbuckle????:S

More mid air rigging. Bad idea. Prevention. Good idea.



It depends on the system... the snag.... the person....

There are some snag situations were it would be easy and some not so easy. If I have a known horseshoe malfunction that is connected to my helmet cam and going directly over my reserve.. yeah I'm going to try to get my helmet off... even if I have just a few seconds to spare before hard deck, and sure as hell if I have 10-15 seconds to spare... :o
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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If it takes you more than 2-3 seconds to unbuckle your helmet then yeah... you have problems.



Really. So you think unbuckling your helmet, with a canopy snagged on it, going through freefall, will be easy to unbuckle????:S

More mid air rigging. Bad idea. Prevention. Good idea.



It depends on the system... the snag.... the person....

There are some snag situations were it would be easy and some not so easy. If I have a known horseshoe malfunction that is connected to my helmet cam and going directly over my reserve.. yeah I'm going to try to get my helmet off... even if I have just a few seconds to spare before hard deck, and sure as hell if I have 10-15 seconds to spare... :o



You do realize that getting a camera snagged by a deploying canopy.. has killed skydivers by snapping their neck's right?

It's a REALLLY good idea to prevent that.. but hey... at least its quick

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Tim, you know I don't base, but why would someone hold the PC near their head than rather at their hip?
Wouldn't a "normal skydiving" throw tend to pose the least entanglement hazard? Or do base guys think it effects opening heading or something?

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Well, up is one thing, but if you toss it *forward* while belly toward the ground, it's easy to get it under you. Head low, same thing. It is nice to toss the PC up or up and forward but it doesn't always happen. You can take a 2 there, but most seem to take a 1/2 to 1 1/2.

I have about 37 jumps from the exact tower so far, Short delays of 1/2 second are common there.

Many people I've seen jump (not just at the Alor Setar Tower), hold the pilot chute right next to their ear on their shoulder. The slack in the bridle is fairly prominent. I'm not surprised a bridle finally wrapped a go pro and I have every intention to modify my set up.

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You do realize that getting a camera snagged by a deploying canopy.. has killed skydivers by snapping their neck's right?



Sure... but then we wouldn't be having the discussion about dealing with a snag then would we.

People have also had their necks broken by hard openings and heavy camera setups... just like with a snag, those are extreme scenarios.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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You do realize that getting a camera snagged by a deploying canopy.. has killed skydivers by snapping their neck's right?



Sure... but then we wouldn't be having the discussion about dealing with a snag then would we.

People have also had their necks broken by hard openings and heavy camera setups... just like with a snag, those are extreme scenarios.



ridestrong,
You are probably a really likeable guy in person and would be fun to hang out with after jumping. But during jumping I don't think many people here would want to be around you in the sky.
You posted a thread here a while back with your madskillz cutaway video.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3842554;page=unread#unread
You were slayed pretty hard and continued to discount very good advice. The same thing is happening here. You are posting advice about an issue you don't really know anything about.
Here's my friendly advice, because I don't want to be ruining my skydiving day patching you up sometime in the near future.

Stop writing checks with your ego that your abilities can't cash.

That's my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it.

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You do realize that getting a camera snagged by a deploying canopy.. has killed skydivers by snapping their neck's right?



Sure... but then we wouldn't be having the discussion about dealing with a snag then would we.

People have also had their necks broken by hard openings and heavy camera setups... just like with a snag, those are extreme scenarios.



ridestrong,
You are probably a really likeable guy in person and would be fun to hang out with after jumping. But during jumping I don't think many people here would want to be around you in the sky.
You posted a thread here a while back with your madskillz cutaway video.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3842554;page=unread#unread
You were slayed pretty hard and continued to discount very good advice. The same thing is happening here. You are posting advice about an issue you don't really know anything about.
Here's my friendly advice, because I don't want to be ruining my skydiving day patching you up sometime in the near future.

Stop writing checks with your ego that your abilities can't cash.

That's my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it.



Yeah your right... we should just end every "discussion" with... 'Skydiving can kill you this way...' and a [crazy face].

If I said something you don't agree with then lets discuss it. If you want to simply spout some stupid shit like you just did then it will make it hard to take you seriously.

--

If that reply was your way of telling me that if you had a horseshoe mal connected to your helmet cam, going over your reserve and you had 10-15 seconds to spare and you wouldn't try to get your helmet off, and just chance that your reserve would clear the horseshoe... then :S.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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So .. Does that mean you're gay?



...do you also want a 3rd grade response. [:/]



Guess we're done talking about camera snags or anything remotely constructive to the discussion. :|
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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