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SRI85

GOpro with low jump number

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>Perhaps there is a reason its a recommendation and not a BSR?

Because not enough people have died yet to reach the BSR threshold - despite some very creative attempts.

>Just think, if every jumper followed the Requirement by a few Tandem
>manufacturers that they need 500 jumps total and 100 camera jumps in
>order to film a tandem..

Horrors! It would be the end of skydiving as we know it!



It probably would be the end for some dropzones, especially small cessna ones. I know of very few vidiots who started with the experience required by the manufacturers (actually none now that I think about it).
Did you follow the manufacturers requirements (assuming you film tandems)?
Anyways, just playing devils advocate - I dont jump camera so I really dont care.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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Just think, if every jumper followed the Requirement by a few Tandem manufacturers that they need 500 jumps total and 100 camera jumps in order to film a tandem...:o



Believe it or not, some DZs actually enforce that rule. Some jumpers even believe it's a good idea!

Ok actually I'll admit to breaking it myself. My first tandem video was my 99th camera jump. I was going to practice without a camera but the TI told me to wear it. I had over 800 jumps though.

Lowering safety standards or breaking rules to help staff small DZs is a pretty poor excuse.

Dave

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Ok actually I'll admit to breaking it myself. My first tandem video was my 99th camera jump. I was going to practice without a camera but the TI told me to wear it. I had over 800 jumps though.



Dave


:o
I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

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It's you that doesn't get it.

Who the fuck are you to tell me I am being "stupid" when my DZO and S&TA have watched me jump and are happy with how I am doing?




Well, according to PD you are in the "Expert" category for wing loading and jumping their 2nd highest performing canopy.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/W-L_Interpretations.pdf

And completely off the chart for Brian's recommended canopy and wing loading.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

But what the hell do these people know:)
You should call PD and Brian up and ask them their opinions? I bet the word "stupid" come up in their opinion.

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>It probably would be the end for some dropzones, especially small
>cessna ones.

Nonsense. I started at a small Cessna DZ that had one cameraguy, period. They survived.

>Did you follow the manufacturers requirements (assuming you
>film tandems)?

Yep. AFF rating, tandem rating, then video.

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I fail to see how the camera will be dangerous



This is the reason that you are not ready to jump a camera. Your failure to recognize the dangers will lead to your failure to account for the dangers.

I find it interesting how new jumpers have no problem learning literally everything they know from experienced, rated instructors, but once they have a handful of jumps, they are unwilling to accept the continued guidance of experienced, rated instructors.

You have been advised of the pitfalls of adding a camera to your skydives at this early stage. You don't have a failure to see the problems, you just have a failure to accept that these problems do indeed exist, and that you might be subject to suffering from them.

I'll echo something Wendy said, and add to it as well. Once you reach 300 jumps, you'll look back to this time, and even your 200th jump, and be surprised at how much more there was to know compared to what you thought you knew. I personally find that after every season I come out the other end a much, much better skydiver than when the season began. I'm talking about the learning and development between jumps 4800 and 5100. I am consistantly impressed with how much I can learn over the course of 6% of my total expereince.

Try to extrapolate that out to what you might discover as you triple your jump numbers from 70 to 200. In addition to tripling your jumps, you're also still on the early, steep part of the learning curve. The reason that you can't seem to grasp the idea of 200 jumps for jumping a camera is the reason that the idea of 200 jumps for jumping a camera exists. You don't know what you don't know, and much like the trust you put in your instructors as a student learning to make a basic parachute descent, you need to trust us that this is the best way when you are contemplating making something far more than just a basic parachute descent.

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Morne, by the looks of your profile we jump at the same DZ, although i don't think we've met. If you ever want to chat cameras (and all the crap that goes along with them), face to face, come and find me at the Skyhigh video hut. I'll be happy to tell you about a few of my fuck-ups along the way and hopefully help you avoid them when you're ready to jump your own.

Cheers
PJ



Will chat to you when im ready about cameras

Please note that at no time did I say I want to start jumping with a camera now. I am waiting to meet the minimum requirements at my dz which I will be discussing with my CI.

I am just debating the subject. And learning. SO thanks for all the constructive comments i appreciate it.

As for forgetting alti's etc , that is why me and my jump buddy always check each other out before every jump. On the way up we make sure altis are working . Both also have audibles. We keep each other safe. Strange to think that there are safe newbs but it happens.

We are very safety aware. I dont like getting hurt... and I have much to live for.

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I fail to see how the camera will be dangerous



This is the reason that you are not ready to jump a camera. Your failure to recognize the dangers will lead to your failure to account for the dangers.

I find it interesting how new jumpers have no problem learning literally everything they know from experienced, rated instructors, but once they have a handful of jumps, they are unwilling to accept the continued guidance of experienced, rated instructors.

You have been advised of the pitfalls of adding a camera to your skydives at this early stage. You don't have a failure to see the problems, you just have a failure to accept that these problems do indeed exist, and that you might be subject to suffering from them.

I'll echo something Wendy said, and add to it as well. Once you reach 300 jumps, you'll look back to this time, and even your 200th jump, and be surprised at how much more there was to know compared to what you thought you knew. I personally find that after every season I come out the other end a much, much better skydiver than when the season began. I'm talking about the learning and development between jumps 4800 and 5100. I am consistantly impressed with how much I can learn over the course of 6% of my total expereince.

Try to extrapolate that out to what you might discover as you triple your jump numbers from 70 to 200. In addition to tripling your jumps, you're also still on the early, steep part of the learning curve. The reason that you can't seem to grasp the idea of 200 jumps for jumping a camera is the reason that the idea of 200 jumps for jumping a camera exists. You don't know what you don't know, and much like the trust you put in your instructors as a student learning to make a basic parachute descent, you need to trust us that this is the best way when you are contemplating making something far more than just a basic parachute descent.



I never said I wanted to start now.

And im trying to learn.

Dont just say , your not ready. Then im not learning.

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For me it's good to see/read that all over the world the same problems appear.

In the Netherlands you aren't allowed to jump with a camera until you have your B-license and 200 formation-jumps. Here we also have the problem of more and more people jumping small camera's before they meet the requirements. We even saw SL-students wanting to jump with a GoPro.

I started jumping with a camera from about 300 jumps and almost all of my jumps since have been camerajumps, both FF and RW. I also use 2 audibles as a backup.

Jumping with a camera isn't as easy as most people think. Flyingskills will come in second place when people wear camera's on their helmets because they are too busy making nice footage that they forget all other things around them (tunnel vision). For this reason I don't think there should be different rules for small/large camera's.

First master the flying skills required to save your ass before you start jumping with a camera becuase your skills won't develop as fast with a camera on your head as without one. Have a talk with some experienced cameraguys for all the potential hazards of jumping with a camera.

You won't be the first to lose altitude-awareness or forget to get out of the way of a jumper coming towards you because you're to busy filming him/her. You also wont be the first one to get stuck in the lines with your camera and throwing away you're main parachute with your helmet still on (hope the mounting of the camera breaks before your neck does).
Blue skies!

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im trying to learn.

Dont just say , your not ready. Then im not learning.




You're not trying to learn. You already know some of the things that can go wrong when strapping on a camera too soon. Here are your own words from an earlier post -
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I am told I will totally forget my ep's... I will totally forget to look at my alti...I will totally ignore my audible... I will forget to pull....and my cypress will most likely save me with me hangin on the reserve like an idiot thinking :"Man what an awesome video"



It's like I said, you see clearly what the problems are, you just refuse to accept them as problems, or that they might happen to you.

Try looking at it from this perspective - the powers that be in the US, and the majority of other countries have all established a min. jump number for camera flying. Highly experienced jumpers from all over the world have taken their time to post that they think it's a bad idea, even when talking to a jumper on the other side of the world who's actions would have no effect on them personally. The moderator of the Video and Photo forum on this website has taken the time to permanently post a listing of actual incidents that occured when jumpers started jumping cameras too early.

Now ask yourself why would all of those people take the time to comment on the situaiton, and direct new jumpers away from cameras unless it was a valid problem? Just the level of attention it gets from jumpers who are 1000's of jumps beyond the magic 200 number should be a big indicator of the scope and seriousness of problem.

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im trying to learn.

Dont just say , your not ready. Then im not learning.




You're not trying to learn. You already know some of the things that can go wrong when strapping on a camera too soon. Here are your own words from an earlier post -
Quote

I am told I will totally forget my ep's... I will totally forget to look at my alti...I will totally ignore my audible... I will forget to pull....and my cypress will most likely save me with me hangin on the reserve like an idiot thinking :"Man what an awesome video"



It's like I said, you see clearly what the problems are, you just refuse to accept them as problems, or that they might happen to you.

Try looking at it from this perspective - the powers that be in the US, and the majority of other countries have all established a min. jump number for camera flying. Highly experienced jumpers from all over the world have taken their time to post that they think it's a bad idea, even when talking to a jumper on the other side of the world who's actions would have no effect on them personally. The moderator of the Video and Photo forum on this website has taken the time to permanently post a listing of actual incidents that occured when jumpers started jumping cameras too early.

Now ask yourself why would all of those people take the time to comment on the situaiton, and direct new jumpers away from cameras unless it was a valid problem? Just the level of attention it gets from jumpers who are 1000's of jumps beyond the magic 200 number should be a big indicator of the scope and seriousness of problem.



ok so i know them. And I never said they wont happen. In fact I never said I wont wait to the minimum required to start camera work...

What im saing is that they will happen whether you have 195 jumps or 201 or 210 or 250.

So when are you really ready (My first original question...;))

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So when are you really ready (My first original question...)



Nobody knows. Nobody knows who is ready for anything until it's over, and that's the problem with skydiving and advancement in skydiving.

Think you're ready for a smaller canopy? You might be, you might look like you are, but you can't say for sure until you jump a smaller canopy and land without incident.

See how it works? For this reason, we have to look at the 'odds' and try to guide newer jumpers into situations where they most likely will be OK, and be able to land without incident.

As an example, look at the lengths we go to in the case of a first jump. A tandem is the sledgehammer of situational control, where instead of giving a student a rig, we give them an experienced jumper with a rig.

That aside, look at AFF. An all day class, specialized rig and canopy, lower wind limitations, higher pull altitudes, and two rated instructors who physically hold onto you before you even get near the door. Nobody knows how one person or another will react to freefall, so everyone gets the full court press, and goes out with every precaution listed above in place and ready to protect them from themselves if need be. If the dive goes great, and it turns out that the student could have done a solo from 14k with a smaller rig for their first jump, good for them, but the precautions were still in place, and did no harm.

Bring this back to camera flying, and the best we can figure is that 200 jumps is the prudent number to go by in terms of when a jumper is ready. Are some people ready before then? Yes, in fact most people are probably ready at some point before that. Are some people not ready at that point? Of course, some people will never be ready.

The idea is that jumpers with 200 jumps or more have a better than average chance at safely jumping a camera. Those that might not, or never, be ready have an above average chance of being beyond the 100-jump wonder status, and being able to make an objective choice about when (if ever) to start camera flying.

200 jumps is a conservative number. It needs to be to ensure that the majority of jumpers will be ready to look into camera flying at that point. It is just a number, and to ask abotu 190 jumps, or 175 jumps is just being silly. the number has to be set somewhere, and 200 is where it is. Might you be ready at 175? I hope so, but in the end, knock out the 25 jumps, and get to 200 before getting started.

It's just like driving at 16, drinking at 21, or pulling by 2000 ft. Sometimes those numbers are high, and sometimes those bumbers are low, but in the end, those are the numbers. People who know came up with them, and you have to play the game and go by the numbers.

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ok so i know them. And I never said they wont happen. In fact I never said I wont wait to the minimum required to start camera work...

What im saing is that they will happen whether you have 195 jumps or 201 or 210 or 250.

So when are you really ready (My first original question...;))



*you* may never be ready. *You* may already be ready but don't have the experience to save yourself if something goes wrong.

[edit] dave answered it better. :P

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You are ready when you can consider the camera and take it into consideration, yet not let it interfere with all the skills you have to already have to not screw up a normal skydive.

The 200 jump limit is because for 99% of the population it takes 200ish jumps to have enough repetitions of basic skydiving survival skills to be able to start to consider adding complicating factors.

YOU may think that it is silly, but name me one person who died in this sport that didn't think they were OK to do what they were doing.

I can tell you that I almost bounced on my first camera jump, of course I thought I would be fine.... Instead, I got a canopy at ~500 feet.

And of course, you are going to ignore any advice given until you find advice that supports what you want to do.... Normal, but not smart.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Well guys rest assured because as I said before. I will be waiting till i meet all the minimum requirements before i jump with a camera.



I believed you the first time you said it. I continued on under the impression you were just trying to understand the reasoning behind the limitation.

The important thing to remember about that situation is that you can apply the idea to just about any facet of skydiving. Whatever you're thinking about doing, the idea is to hold off until you (and others around you 'in the know') think that you're more than ready for whatever it is.

When you rush into something you might 'just barely' be ready for, you open yourself up to all kinds of trouble. If that happens to be the jump or activity where you find that you are not cut out for that situation, you find yourself unpreparred and in over your head. By holding off until you are 'more than ready', if you find that something is 'beyond you', at least you have the experience and preparredness to fall back on, and hopefully save your ass.

It a good method to keep in mind when looking to advance in skydiving. It really only applies though about 1000 jumps or so, as by that point you're either ready for anything, or have seen/done enough to know what is, or is not, for you. Up to that point, just err on the side of caution, and take everything slow and easy.

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I've said this before...

Attach a cheap ringsight to your helmet. Get used to that. When you're ready for a camera, you'll be used to the distraction of the ringsight.

Little steps, Grasshopper!



Holy crap! A useful suggestion!
Maybe low-time jumpers wouldn't brush off experienced jumpers if they were presented with actual steps towards flying a camera rather than the repetitive "you need 200 jumps" mantra that pervades nearly every single GoPro thread.

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I've said this before...

Attach a cheap ringsight to your helmet. Get used to that. When you're ready for a camera, you'll be used to the distraction of the ringsight.

Little steps, Grasshopper!



I'm not sure it's such a good idea...
You don't need a ringsight when you start jumping video (It's going to be crap anyway, so why bother?). I actually have never seen anybody using a ringsight with only a GoPro on the head.

It's just one more thing to make the novices focus on their shot rather than on their safety once they have a camera.

So why make them wear a ringsight first?

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I've said this before...

Attach a cheap ringsight to your helmet. Get used to that. When you're ready for a camera, you'll be used to the distraction of the ringsight.

Little steps, Grasshopper!



Holy crap! A useful suggestion!
Maybe low-time jumpers wouldn't brush off experienced jumpers if they were presented with actual steps towards flying a camera rather than the repetitive "you need 200 jumps" mantra that pervades nearly every single GoPro thread.



Yip would seem like a good suggestion. but I think the distraction of the actual filming will still be there.

Looking through a site you know does nothing is just not the same as actually having the camera.

:)

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Attach a cheap ringsight to your helmet. Get used to that. When you're ready for a camera, you'll be used to the distraction of the ringsight.



That's really silly advice. The concern with camera jumping is the distraction it causes, not the camera itself. Adding a ringsite adds the same distraction.

How about this for advice on starting camera: go make a bunch of skydives. Get comfortable in the air. Get competent flying your body. Get competent landing your canopy. Get practice with EPs. That's it.

- Dan G

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The first thing to do is to develop your flying skills -- you want to be good enough at no-contact work to film anyone else, no matter how erratically they're flying. You also have to be completely responsible for your own altitude awareness -- it's nice to say that you're warned by the group your filming tracking off, but sometimes the group doesn't do that until too late for reason.

Hang out in the video forum, talk to them, just as you would hang out at the campfire at the end of the day to talk to skydivers. And after you've done it once, remember that many people can do something once. But good video means that you do it every time, not just occasionally.

Which means that those skills you've been practicing should be thoroughly solid before you add the complication of video. Flying and altitude awareness are your survival skills; they're more important. Be really, really good at them (don't just fail to die :ph34r:), then when you add video you'll be good at it, too, a whole lot sooner.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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