Different way to flare?

[huge 0]

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what are the forward and vertical speeds of those canopies ..........

African or European?

but then again African canopies are non-migratory.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I pumped the brakes several times rapidly

There's a name for that...Toggle Jockey

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[shropshire 0]

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what are the forward and vertical speeds of those canopies ..........

African or European?

but then again African canopies are non-migratory.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[faulknerwn 36]

Its funny - in CRW we do that sometimes because any abrupt toggle movement kills energy..

I'm really big on accuracy (on sport-style canopies) and I'll pop toggles regularly if I'm planed out and going to overshoot the target. A couple sharp jabs of the toggle like that kill airspeed. Any time you do anything abrupt with the toggles it kills airspeed.

Obviously if your goal in the landing is the longest possible swoop - its not good because it kills your horizontal speed. If you have plenty of lift (i.e. a good flare and you are flying on a nice modern canopy), once you are planed out, popping toggles can rapidly drop your forward speed, causing you to have to run less.

Absolutely its not the most efficient way to land - you can probably keep surfing quite a while - but on a lot of canopies in no wind you may still have to run like heck after touchdown.

I use the technique both to stop my landing short to land on target (and again - my canopies have plenty of extra lift and so I still land really soft when doing so, but its just a method to kill extra forward speed) and to slow down so I don't have to run so fast.

I'll be the first to admit - you get a far shorter swoop and planeout than if you don't do it, but hell I hate running and the technique is for stopping horizontal speed. I first learned it doing CRW - when we're flying in for a wing dock - you're ideally coming completely in horizontal to your slot, and since you're going pretty much perpendicular to the formation you're hauling ass. Basically when you do your final turn to have your canopy matching the formation's heading, you're hauling ass at them. What we've learned is you either slap your brakes or your front risers and you stop on a dime. Its got to be fast and abrupt - literally we often hear the canopy "crack." But its the abrupt change in the airfoil which kills your speed and its a standard CRW technique that is taught..

I love the technique - it absolutely works - its funny to me because a lot of the "odd" techniques - using deep brakes to sink or back up for accuracy - slapping the toggles - and other stuff I can't think of right now - seems to be a dying art because of the rise in swooping - everyone is all about getting max speed/lift/distance/swoop on the landing. I couldn't care less about that.

Deep brakes and popping brakes are techniques that work well for accuracy - absolutely I could get more distance if I didn't do it - but at the point I use it I'm leveled off a foot above the ground - lift is no longer an issue as I'm going to drop at most 12 inches - but I'm getting old and I hate running and I can get the canopy to slow down and stop that way.. I do it by killing the lift and efficiency of the canopy. Its just important that you only do it 6-12 inches across the ground at a height where losing lift won't hurt you..

[d123 1]

Here is something that reminds me of this, that I do and I'm not completly sure if it's good or bad:

Sometimes, not that often, I turn to final with a sharp 90 turn. This takes me into a roller coster of air speed as I surf and drop (50 feet higher than the ground).
After the turn my canopy dives and it picks up speed. Then as it level off, it loses speed to a speed lower then the normal flight speed and here it begins to drop to pick up speed. In the lower air speed zone, when it begins to drop, I feel that canopy is being "mushy" and not loaded as normal (the system doesn't feel rigid).

To avoid going into the "lower than normal" airspeed I pump the brakes (for less than 1 sec at ears level) close to the highest air speed point. This way I see that my wing will not level off and then lose airspeed and then drop to be mushy and I kinda feel that the entire system is more rigid as I never go to lower than normal airspeed. I've attaced a picture with how I imagine the entire thingy.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Rick 67]

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Its funny - in CRW we do that sometimes because any abrupt toggle movement kills energy..

I'm really big on accuracy (on sport-style canopies) and I'll pop toggles regularly if I'm planed out and going to overshoot the target. A couple sharp jabs of the toggle like that kill airspeed. Any time you do anything abrupt with the toggles it kills airspeed.

Obviously if your goal in the landing is the longest possible swoop - its not good because it kills your horizontal speed. If you have plenty of lift (i.e. a good flare and you are flying on a nice modern canopy), once you are planed out, popping toggles can rapidly drop your forward speed, causing you to have to run less.

Absolutely its not the most efficient way to land - you can probably keep surfing quite a while - but on a lot of canopies in no wind you may still have to run like heck after touchdown.

I use the technique both to stop my landing short to land on target (and again - my canopies have plenty of extra lift and so I still land really soft when doing so, but its just a method to kill extra forward speed) and to slow down so I don't have to run so fast.

I'll be the first to admit - you get a far shorter swoop and planeout than if you don't do it, but hell I hate running and the technique is for stopping horizontal speed. I first learned it doing CRW - when we're flying in for a wing dock - you're ideally coming completely in horizontal to your slot, and since you're going pretty much perpendicular to the formation you're hauling ass. Basically when you do your final turn to have your canopy matching the formation's heading, you're hauling ass at them. What we've learned is you either slap your brakes or your front risers and you stop on a dime. Its got to be fast and abrupt - literally we often hear the canopy "crack." But its the abrupt change in the airfoil which kills your speed and its a standard CRW technique that is taught..

I love the technique - it absolutely works - its funny to me because a lot of the "odd" techniques - using deep brakes to sink or back up for accuracy - slapping the toggles - and other stuff I can't think of right now - seems to be a dying art because of the rise in swooping - everyone is all about getting max speed/lift/distance/swoop on the landing. I couldn't care less about that.

Deep brakes and popping brakes are techniques that work well for accuracy - absolutely I could get more distance if I didn't do it - but at the point I use it I'm leveled off a foot above the ground - lift is no longer an issue as I'm going to drop at most 12 inches - but I'm getting old and I hate running and I can get the canopy to slow down and stop that way.. I do it by killing the lift and efficiency of the canopy. Its just important that you only do it 6-12 inches across the ground at a height where losing lift won't hurt you..

very informative post thank you

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[popsjumper 2]

Yeah...she's good about that, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Butters 0]

That's Jeff N. in the video, why don't you ask him? I'm betting it was done for show (or excitement) and not for performance.

PS: Copying stuff you see while watching videos online without knowing anything about the stuff is ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Heatmiser 0]

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That's Jeff N. in the video, why don't you ask him? I'm betting it was done for show (or excitement) and not for performance.

PS: Copying stuff you see while watching videos online without knowing anything about the stuff is ...

You mean I won't be able to swoop my Velo 84 when it gets here? But, But, I've watched like, 2 hours of swooping comp video.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[Butters 0]

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That's Jeff N. in the video, why don't you ask him? I'm betting it was done for show (or excitement) and not for performance.

PS: Copying stuff you see while watching videos online without knowing anything about the stuff is ...

You mean I won't be able to swoop my Velo 84 when it gets here? But, But, I've watched like, 2 hours of swooping comp video.

Two hours is better than the two seconds this person watched ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Ron 7]

It is not an efficient way to land a canopy.

I can be a good way to kill fwd speed, but that is only because it is distorting the canopy and destroying the lift. I have done it when I was going to over swoop my landing area.

Think of it this way:

1. How many pro swoopers do you see land that way?
2. How many aircraft land that way?

Normally when you see a guy doing that he is either goofing off, or trying like hell to slow down his canopy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

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3:42 in this video

That's a goof. He's a very experienced jumper coming off of one of the most advanced and succesful jumps of his entire life, and he's flapping his arms like a chicken for the camera. It's easy to understand why he would be feeling good and having a little fun.

Look at the rest of the video, can you see the shadow of the swoopers hands on several landings, no flapping going on.

The idea that this is a valid technique for every landing is wrong. The idea that this is a good way to kill speed and shorten your landing is very close to wrong. While it will serve that very purpose, it's not over effective, and not something low time jumpers should consider a tool for their usage.

There are very few situations where this would be appropriate, and many situtaitons where this would be a very poor choice of technique. If used to shorten a swoop, you may reach your obstacel with less speed, or you may just baloon up and reach your obstacle the same speed and more alttitude. Now you're going to hit something and fall down.

A much better alternative is to allow yourself to sink to the ground and beign to slide. You will never be able to create more drag or dissipate more speed than when you get your body down on the ground. The more area of your body touching the ground, the more quickly you will slow down. No amount of canopy flying will evern get you stopped shorter.

All of the begs the question, how dod you get into a position where you are swooping and going to hit something? Until you are an above average swooper, you should never, never, never be swooping anywhere where you do not have at least twice the runway you need, and outs on both sides. The last thing you need once you get your airspeed wound up is an obstacle or a dead end. be smart about how and where you swoop, and you'll never need any sort of 'bail out' technique.

Swooping aside, use smooth, even inputs every time you fly your canopy for the best results. If you are going to hit something, a full flare and PLF should be your default course of action. In 99.99% of all scenarios, it will be the most reliable and produce the best results. You flare every jump, and should remember hwo to PLF, so you can reasonably expect yourself to do these things in a high pressure situation.

Look to very high time jumpers as examples can be a mistake. Eventually you will reach a level of proficiency where you can put both toggles in one hand, or reach out in the middle of a swoop and high-five another jumper, or even flap your arms like a chicken, all the while maintaining straight and level flight. That ability is based on 1000's of jumps and a high level of familiarity with your wing. Attempting to copy those manuvers is a bad idea.

[Halfpastniner 0]

For what its worth, my friend lands his ragged out Mojo (BASE canopy) that way ever time. He swears by it, but it looks goofy as hell!

BASE 1384

[ibx 2]

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1. How many pro swoopers do you see land that way?
2. How many aircraft land that way?

1. Maybe not everyone wants to swoop.
This is a proven accuracy technique, its used by the old farts at our DZ, former German champions.
2. An aircraft can slip to decrease speed before landing.
Impossible with a flexible wing without ailerons and rudder.

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[Ron 7]

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1. Maybe not everyone wants to swoop.
This is a proven accuracy technique, its used by the old farts at our DZ, former German champions.

a. What someone *wants* to do does not change physics.

b. Not all old techniques are correct.

c. Not all old correct techniques work with modern equipment.

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2. An aircraft can slip to decrease speed before landing.
Impossible with a flexible wing without ailerons and rudder.

Then don't try to compare the two methods since they are different.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

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1. How many pro swoopers do you see land that way?
2. How many aircraft land that way?

1. Maybe not everyone wants to swoop.
This is a proven accuracy technique, its used by the old farts at our DZ, former German champions.
2. An aircraft can slip to decrease speed before landing.
Impossible with a flexible wing without ailerons and rudder.

Regardless of the desire to swoop, or not, Accuracy canopies are entirely different beasts to modern day 'regular' canopies - they are an exception to the rule.

The technique described by the OP will bleed off speed quickly, but will (more often than not) result in a worse landing than could be achieved with proper technique. Introducing late flight cycles with erratic movements only makes the pilot's job harder.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

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[Ron 7]

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All of the begs the question, how dod you get into a position where you are swooping and going to hit something?

Think beer line, or landing in the peas.

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Swooping aside, use smooth, even inputs every time you fly your canopy for the best results. If you are going to hit something, a full flare and PLF should be your default course of action. In 99.99% of all scenarios, it will be the most reliable and produce the best results.

True. In my examples we are talking about shortening a swoop that will not result in an obstacle strike. If you are going to hit something, the best course of action is to slide/flare, not pumping brakes.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ridestrong 1]

I'm not surprised to see so many shooting this down... But so far I see, some that have either tried this or seen it done numerous times and say it works... vs others that have never tried it or likely seen it routinely used, but yet 'know' it doesn't work.

It's definitely unorthodox, but don't bash it until you try it.

On the other hand, I won't be trying it any time soon.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm not surprised to see so many shooting this down... But so far I see, some that have either tried this or seen it done numerous times and say it works... vs others that have never tried it or likely seen it routinely used, but yet 'know' it doesn't work.

It's definitely unorthodox, but don't bash it until you try it.

On the other hand, I won't be trying it any time soon.

I have seen this "technique" I have also used it. For your normal jumper on a modern design ZP canopy, it is not something that will be typically used. A jumper will get more out of their canopy using proper technique, with smooth inputs.

Recently, I've used and seen the technique used in top level swoop competitions for zone accuracy. Also used is early transition to toggles, more foot drag and dirty body positions (turning sideways in the harness a bit). However, that is done when the ZA approach was wrong and the competitor needed to scrub speed very quickly to earn a better score.

Something to remember is that what makes the top swoopers good canopy pilots many times will translate into all around good canopy piloting for an average jumper (smooth inputs, good patterns, etc). What is done in competition is not something that necessarily is good or safe for an average jumper in day-to-day skydiving: launching for a distance run, pushing the canopy into the corner to launch out for a speed run, dirty flying for a zone accuracy stop (or a launch to stall for the zone).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wildcard451 0]

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Something to remember is that what makes the top swoopers good canopy pilots many times will translate into all around good canopy piloting for an average jumper (smooth inputs, good patterns, etc). What is done in competition is not something that necessarily is good or safe for an average jumper in day-to-day skydiving: launching for a distance run, pushing the canopy into the corner to launch out for a speed run, dirty flying for a zone accuracy stop (or a launch to stall for the zone).

Competition landings don't always feel as good as you want your day to day landings to either.

[Ron 7]

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I'm not surprised to see so many shooting this down... But so far I see, some that have either tried this or seen it done numerous times and say it works... vs others that have never tried it or likely seen it routinely used, but yet 'know' it doesn't work.

And some have used it, seen it used, and know it only sorta works... But that it is far from the best technique available.

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It's definitely unorthodox, but don't bash it until you try it.

And if a person has tried it... Do they now get to have an opinion on it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ridestrong 1]

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It's definitely unorthodox, but don't bash it until you try it.

And if a person has tried it... Do they now get to have an opinion on it?

This is dropzone.com, I think we ALL know that doesn't matter.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[pchapman 261]

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I'm not surprised to see so many shooting this down...

Part of the issue is the framing of the original question.

Originally the question was about it improving a normal landing, making the a flare more efficient.

There was skepticism about that.

Later the thread turned more to any other ways the flapping might be of use -- to add drag during the flare, not something typically needed, but useful in certain circumstances.

And we also had the video that was linked to, which seems not to be about a better flare or a better stop, but just plain having fun!

[davelepka 4]

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I'm not surprised to see so many shooting this down...

Me neither, mostly because it's stupid.

It's not a good 'plan' in almost any respect. Once you reach a level where sustaining safe flight becomes second nature, you can at times experiment with different things, or recognize a situation and see if you can make a manuver 'fit' into that situation.

However, the key to this is that it's all done while successfully managing the forward and vertical speed of the canopy. If you were to let the manuver trump managing the speed of the canopy, you end up flapping your arms right into a broken leg.

This is why it's a stupid manuver to consider for anything but having fun or the odd' experiment' when a situation presents itself. If you notice Ron's post, where he claims to have used such a manuver, he later goes on to clarify that it was used in a 'no consequence' situation, like bustng the beer line, or trying to hit a dead center. In terms of flying your canopy to survive, flapping your arms around, or even just pumping your toggles is not the way to go.

[DSE 3]

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So I would hold a lot of weight in thinking that it will deliver you the result you desire because of this one trial.

You're right. Ill have to do this a bunch more times then I can formulate a decision on if it's a better way to do it or not.

If you can get a few mins with him in Utah, Ron M seems to land this way all the time. He's also on a much more highly loaded canopy than you are, maybe he can explain why he does it and how it works.