Requirements for Demo Jumps?

[DaVinciflies 0]

Quote

A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.

Bolding makes all all the difference. This was not a "demo" since there were no people in the stands "principally for the benefit of spectators".

Do online spectators count as they presumably released this in an attempt to create publicity?

[diablopilot 2]

I'd say if there was a "Waiver of Authorization" filed for the jump with the local FAA FSDO then it was a demo.

No worries, with the track record the BOD has had in the past, the USPA won't do anything about it anyway.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deisel 35]

Dont read into what I said. Read your BSRs and FARs instead.

ETA -
All I'm saying here is
1 - there are requirements in order to fly jumpers (FAA)
2 - there are rules for demo jumps (USPA)

Anyone disagree?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[hchunter614 0]

The article specifically states the jump was for promotional purposes...

"A skydiving enthusiast since 2007, Vickers became the first driver in series history to parachute into the speedway as a promotional kickoff for the July 2 Coke Zero 400"

My bolding

[Ron 7]

Quote

Do online spectators count as they presumably released this in an attempt to create publicity?

Good question... I'd go with "no" since they were not present. The demo rules are there to protect the spectators.... Case in point the guy who knocked a baby out of the arms of it's mother on landing and (i think) killed the baby.

There is no doubt that this was "advertising" or "promotion".... Just that it was/was not a "demo".

Don't get me wrong... I don't think it was smart, but I don't think it was terribly stupid either. His performance didn't really help skydiving since he biffed.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[hchunter614 0]

His performance didn't help skydiving because he biffed but what would have happened if he had killed himself? Or killed one of his ground crew or the camera crew?

[Ron 7]

Quote

The article specifically states the jump was for promotional purposes...

"A skydiving enthusiast since 2007, Vickers became the first driver in series history to parachute into the speedway as a promotional kickoff for the July 2 Coke Zero 400"

My bolding

"principally for the benefit of spectators" is how the definition "Demo" reads. There were no "spectators" there was only support crew.

If this had been into the field with it packed with fans... I would agree. As it was, it was a jump onto private property with permission of the land owner.

I have a PRO rating, and was on a military demo team... I do understand a bit what is and what is not considered a demo.

This was a promotion, but it was not a demo.

And yes, it was not even a good promotion since he ate it on landing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[grimmie 173]

Quote

His performance didn't help skydiving because he biffed but what would have happened if he had killed himself? Or killed one of his ground crew or the camera crew?

Florida DZ's tandem biz would skyrocket. Really.

[Ron 7]

Quote

ETA -
All I'm saying here is
1 - there are requirements in order to fly jumpers (FAA)
2 - there are rules for demo jumps (USPA)

The min requirements to fly jumpers is a private ticket. To do it for hire you do need a commercial rating. So, we can just assume that the pilot had at least a commercial rating, unless you can prove otherwise.

A NOTAM also has to be filed... Unless you can prove it was not filed then it still is not illegal.

The rules for a demo jump do not apply to an alternate landing are if it is not "primarily for the benefit of spectators".

Spectators means present, not online viewing, not broadcast viewers.

I don't know why you are so upset with this... But call the FAA and USPA and file a complaint if you are that upset. I think you are going to find that nothing wrong happened.

It was not done well... and the guy looked like a dufus balling himself up on landing... But that does not mean it is illegal.

Also, be careful what you wish for... If having a few people standing around made this a demo... Do you really want the USPA and the FAA getting involved into your buddies jumping into a party on someones land?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[audiobahn18s 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiM-R2vR1E0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sorry. My phone won't let me make it a clicky .

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Ok serious question here.

From the wording of the SIM would a jump for an advert be classified as an exhibition jump?

Granted an experienced jumper is going to make a better ad than a low jump numbers person.

I jumped there years ago, but there were more spectators.



A demo jump should promote the sport in a positive fashion...he's got US talking about it, and it is posted on the inner-web. Yes it's a demo jump, ...with 75 jumps an EMPTY stadium is probably a good place for him to be doing them.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Dont read into what I said. Read your BSRs and FARs instead.

ETA -
All I'm saying here is
1 - there are requirements in order to fly jumpers (FAA)
2 - there are rules for demo jumps (USPA)

Anyone disagree?

I don't disagree...however the USPA 'rules' have very small teeth. You absolutely do NOT have to be a USPA member to legally or successfully do a demo.


In the bigger picture, Waffle House may also have 'rules' for doing a demo...who cares. It's the FAA you need to satisfy, having the USPA ratings and following their recommendations makes that easier.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[nigel99 144]

Quote

Quote

Ok serious question here.

From the wording of the SIM would a jump for an advert be classified as an exhibition jump?

Granted an experienced jumper is going to make a better ad than a low jump numbers person.

I jumped there years ago, but there were more spectators.



A demo jump should promote the sport in a positive fashion...he's got US talking about it, and it is posted on the inner-web. Yes it's a demo jump, ...with 75 jumps an EMPTY stadium is probably a good place for him to be doing them.

Sorry Jim, I mean't a hypothetical advert not this specific case? An advert is promotional and so might be seen as meeting the requirements if done off dz.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Quote

Dont read into what I said. Read your BSRs and FARs instead.

ETA -
All I'm saying here is
1 - there are requirements in order to fly jumpers (FAA)
2 - there are rules for demo jumps (USPA)

Anyone disagree?

"USPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA."

That is what you said.
USPA does not certify dropzones. You send them $200 and you become a group member. You promise to follow their BSRs. FAA has nothing to do with it unless there are airspace issues. Nobody certifies anything.

Due to the fact that we live in America you can pretty much jump anywhere you want as long as you comply with part 105 of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations. No drop zone required. No wavier or certificate of authorization needed. No notam necessary. No USPA membership or BSRs. As long as you comply with the requirements and restrictions in part 105.

I will give you credit for knowing the pilot needs a license and that USPA list requirements for demo jumps.

Semper Fi

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Ok serious question here.

From the wording of the SIM would a jump for an advert be classified as an exhibition jump?

Granted an experienced jumper is going to make a better ad than a low jump numbers person.

I jumped there years ago, but there were more spectators.



A demo jump should promote the sport in a positive fashion...he's got US talking about it, and it is posted on the inner-web. Yes it's a demo jump, ...with 75 jumps an EMPTY stadium is probably a good place for him to be doing them.

Sorry Jim, I mean't a hypothetical advert not this specific case? An advert is promotional and so might be seen as meeting the requirements if done off dz.

No I understand, but 'promotional' has a wide net...A practice jump into an empty major league stadium is promotional to an extent in that it helps insure safety & success for the full stadium jump.

I would definitely consider both jumps as demos.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Deisel 35]

Why does anyone think that I'm upset about anything? Like I said before - just having a chat about a skydiving story that was in the news. Hell, Ive never said that there actually WAS anything wrong.

But I do think that no matter what, anyone that has read this entire thread has probably learned something about demo jumps - no?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[Deisel 35]

Im not a lawyer. Hell, I didnt even sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. So pick apart verbage if you like - certify was probably a poor choice of words. But there are standards for DZs even if they are not enforced. And I thought (was told) that a commercial ticket was needed to fly jumpers. If I'm wrong then I stand corrected. But I'll bet money I'm not the only person that thought so!
S/F

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[normiss 622]

Agreed.
Add to that the "exiting over congested area" = demo jump.

[DanG 1]

Quote

I'd say if there was a "Waiver of Authorization" filed for the jump with the local FAA FSDO then it was a demo.

Maybe. It still might not rise to what USPA has defined a demo jump as. Either way, and the waiver was approved, then the jump was 100% legal.

Quote

No worries, with the track record the BOD has had in the past, the USPA won't do anything about it anyway.

If the jump was legal and there were no spectators, why would the BOD need to do anything about it?

- Dan G

[david3 0]

Quote

Quote

Dont read into what I said. Read your BSRs and FARs instead.

ETA -
All I'm saying here is
1 - there are requirements in order to fly jumpers (FAA)
2 - there are rules for demo jumps (USPA)

Anyone disagree?

"USPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA."

That is what you said.
USPA does not certify dropzones. You send them $200 and you become a group member. You promise to follow their BSRs. FAA has nothing to do with it unless there are airspace issues. Nobody certifies anything.

Due to the fact that we live in America you can pretty much jump anywhere you want as long as you comply with part 105 of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations. No drop zone required. No wavier or certificate of authorization needed. No notam necessary. No USPA membership or BSRs. As long as you comply with the requirements and restrictions in part 105.

I will give you credit for knowing the pilot needs a license and that USPA list requirements for demo jumps.

Semper Fi

You have said on this site in the past "No notam necessary" and I know we have talked about it. I haven't seen anyone call you on it. Why do some people think a notam is required? Can someone point me to where it says it is required? I have no idea if it is or isn't.

.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Quote

I would definitely consider both jumps as demos.

According to USPA maybe but not according to the feds. That for sure was not an open air assembly of people. Over a congested area maybe but since there is no definition of a congested area in the regulations its a roll of the dice. Feds don't care unless something happens. I know that at the dropzones I jump at I would consider them located in conjested areas. CrossKeys, Keystone skydiving...

So a Demo jump into an airshow would be considered a demo jump by USPA and the feds would call it a jump over an open air assembly of people (105.21)requiring a FAA form 7711-2 Certificate of Waiver or Authorization. The feds then go to AC 105-2c and list requirements in an opspec format authorizing the jump.

So while you might consider it a demo and USPA might consider it a demo to the FAA its just a jump.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[DBCOOPER 1]

It is only a legal requirement if its stated in the certificate of authorization. Don't get me wrong its prudent to do and almost everybody does it out of common sense even if there is no requirement, but it is not a requirement to make a jump per the regulations.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Quote

... Why do some people think a notam is required? Can someone point me to where it says it is required? I have no idea if it is or isn't.

.

Technically a NOTAM (NOtice To AirMen) isn't required.
105.25(a)(3),(b) and (c) detail who must be notified (air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace), when they must be notified (24 hours before to 1 hour before) but not how they are to be notified.
A simple phone call to the appropriate facility could be considered notification. Or an e-mail. Or a letter.

The reason NOTAMs are used (and often considered mandatory) is that they are dissemenated to all pilots, not just ATC, and they provide proof that notification was made.
And they are really simple to do.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

His performance didn't help skydiving because he biffed but what would have happened if he had killed himself? Or killed one of his ground crew or the camera crew?

Oddly, any skydiving is good for the sport, even when there are injuries or death. If he would have killed himself we probably would have never seen this promotional commerical made into an empty race track. For those that do no know how big Daytona is, it is 2.5 mile track. It is HUGE.

I'm looking forward to attending the race.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[kimemerson 7]

Quote

Quote

The article specifically states the jump was for promotional purposes...

"A skydiving enthusiast since 2007, Vickers became the first driver in series history to parachute into the speedway as a promotional kickoff for the July 2 Coke Zero 400"

My bolding

"principally for the benefit of spectators" is how the definition "Demo" reads. There were no "spectators" there was only support crew.

If this had been into the field with it packed with fans... I would agree. As it was, it was a jump onto private property with permission of the land owner.

I have a PRO rating, and was on a military demo team... I do understand a bit what is and what is not considered a demo.

This was a promotion, but it was not a demo.

And yes, it was not even a good promotion since he ate it on landing.

Ok you all have me curious: Regardless of whether this was a demo or an exhibition or a bandit jump or whatever, there seems to be a common view here that the Raceway was all but abandoned this day. As I look at the video, am I the only one who sees a ton of people in the stands? The place looks damn well crowded. I have not been inside Daytona Raceway so I can't absolutely swear that those are people. Just looks that way to me. Anyone else?