ikebonamin 0 #1 August 29, 2005 Hello people! About Pilote Chute in Tow: let´s see ONLY what would you do in case of having this type of MAL... and not WHY you would proceed that way.... ike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #2 August 29, 2005 Silver only... If I end up with two canopies out, I'll deal with that when it comes... I'd rather have both canopies connected to me rather than one canopies risers tangled in another canopy where I cant do shit with it. But, both options just suck. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #3 August 29, 2005 QuoteSilver only... If I end up with two canopies out, I'll deal with that when it comes... I'd rather have both canopies connected to me rather than one canopies risers tangled in another canopy where I cant do shit with it. But, both options just suck. I concur with Nate…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikebonamin 0 #4 August 29, 2005 Would you guys try to clear it with your hands before going on silver? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #5 August 29, 2005 Covered many times on here ... here's a recent thread that gets into a lot of the issues: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1607525"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #6 August 29, 2005 Depends on altitude, but I figure that I wouldnt have the time to do much more than elbow the sides of the container before going silver... Based on 3,000ft pull, couple of seconds to go WTF, couple seconds to look behind to see what problem is / clear any burble, then mabey elbow container.. Figure that puts me around my hard deck of 1800 feet, time for silver. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #7 August 29, 2005 QuoteWould you guys try to clear it with your hands before going on silver? Lots of posts on that with lots of opinions. What it boils down to is that there is no definite answer. Like chopping a mal that someone else might try and clear. You are the jumper involved, only you know how bad it is. REMEMBERING YOUR ALTI AND TIME, you may chose to clear it. There is quite a significant amount of drag on that pilot chute. I think I once heard someone say it's about 60-80lbs (on average at about 120mph)... correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, the point is that if that amount of pressure isn't going to pull the pin, you won't do it yourself, by hand and contorted the way you'd have to be to reach it. I have though about elbowing the sides of the container as some have mentioned. In fact, I had a pilot chute dance in my burble one time... when I looked over my shoulder (to spill air and clear it), I found I struck the side of my container quite hard with my elbow at the same time... so the visualisation worked as I did it without thinking! You may want to think of that since if you pull and nothing happens, you'll be taking the time to look over your shoulder as distinguish a pilot chute in tow from a lazy pull, burble-dancer anyway. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outlawphx 1 #8 August 29, 2005 I had a PC in tow this weekend. I threw out, went back to boxman, I'm still in freefall , I look over my shoulder and I see my pilot chute is inflated, so I made one attempt at grabing the bridle, and I got the pin pulled. I reacted pretty fast, but I still burned through 1000 ft. Point is, do SOMETHING, and do it QUICKLY. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #9 August 29, 2005 Quote ... There is quite a significant amount of drag on that pilot chute. I I'm a newbie, but if the PC isn't cocked, it likely won't have much pull, right? You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #10 August 29, 2005 I had a "near miss" a.k.a. a "Wakeup Call" a while back, when I had 50 jumps or so... I was in an intense 4 way camp and was on about jump 15 of the camp... We probably pulled more points on that jump than I remember, I was working hard and pushing my limits. I tracked from the formation and got into the "wow, that is over" mindset... I pulled my main... It sniveled and sniveled and sniveled... Way too long... My brain said, "goto reserve"... But moments before I took actions, the canopy finally opened... I realized about 15 minutes after the jump... My brain said "GO TO RESERVE" - not "CUTWAY THEN..." Would I have pulled the reserve without the cutaway? I will never know, but the chances are high. I had practiced the EPs on the ground and in the plane as everyone does and thought the muscle memory was built, but I realized my brain did weird shit because I never visualized the snivel as part of the EPs and my adrenaline/brain power was "over the line" from the 4way stuff. In all my visualizations I had either a spun up or broken main or nothing at all... My visualizations failed me... I needed an immediate change! So, I changed a lot of things on the very next jump (like 20 minutes after that jump, remember this was 4way camp)... In my track, I practiced my EPs so if I needed them in a few seconds I was ready. I realized all the practicing on the ground is useless for me - building the muscle memory in the real situation was priceless. I even a couple times did my practice EPs as my canopy was sniveling to get in the habit of doing it in a high speed "mal". Every jump since then, I think to myself as I pull, "If this does not work, right then left." I actually say it out loud. It is now so ingrained in me that I don't know if I could pull without saying it. Since I say "if this does not work" it covers every base imaginable in my visualizations. Right then left simply puts the order in my mind in simple terms and removes the color/texture factor incase I am jumping a borrowed rig and the handles are soft pads or different colors... So, if I had a PC in tow, I probably would do my EPs just as I trained myself, and that includes the cutaway first. Also, when I jump with someone with 30 jumps or so and I can tell I am pushing their limits for remembering the points we plan on turning, I tell them this little story and say, "I found visualizing my EPs during the track gets your mind back on saving your life and prepared for the worst." Just my two cents. I think I would cutaway first before going to my next handle... I hope someone learns from my little post here, because I learned a lot when it happened first hand to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #11 August 30, 2005 QuoteI'm a newbie, but if the PC isn't cocked, it likely won't have much pull, right? Right. Mine looks like a sock when it is not cocked. In the burble above me, I doubt it would even have 5 pounds of drag... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #12 August 30, 2005 Quotepracticing my EPs during the track I guess maybe I missed something here, but how is it that you can track while practicing EPs? Am I to assume you visualize without actually touching the handles, or are you actually going for them? I can't imagine an efficient track while trying to "go through the motions.....Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #13 August 30, 2005 QuoteAm I to assume you visualize without actually touching the handles, or are you actually going for them? On that track I did actually touch them at the very end as I was slowing down. My feet were still tracking, but my arms came in... I am sure I lost some efficiency, but I kept aware of where my pals were and did not compromise the safety of the jump. Our breakoff was high, so our tracks were long. I see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... For me, I needed to know that I could do the EPs after turning a lot of points in a high pressure environment... It worked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #14 August 30, 2005 QuoteI see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... I also would not advocate teaching this to someone with 30 jumps....Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #15 August 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteI see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... I also would not advocate teaching this to someone with 30 jumps.... Ok... So to clarify... I agree - practicing EPs physically during a track is a bad idea unless planned for ahead of time. The time I did it, I asked my friends to break early "because I needed some time to reset from the 4 way stuff and practice getting my mind ready for the next step". It was part of the dive flow, not something thrown in without being part of the plan. However, I believe someone with 30 jumps (or maybe 40, or maybe 100 if they did a lot of solos) is the perfect target audience for the comment, "during your track, evaluate your EP mindset and refresh your memory on what to do. It is easy to get overwhelmed with the overload of everything you are trying to accomplish during the freefall and not be in the proper mental state to handle EPs..." Why I say that? Because I know my jumps 35 to 140 ish were my "get my feet wet jumps" where I was trying new things and leaving the comfort zone of jumping with highly experienced instructors who were predictable and focused. All of a sudden, I was jumping with people who had less experience and sometimes struggled with the basics, like I was doing myself... If this comment was not said to the 50 or so jump person, they would not learn from it when they needed it the most... But maybe I am an isolated case. Maybe others don't go over the line as much as I did early on when experiencing so many things for the first time... But I think we just hyjacked this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #16 August 30, 2005 Reach round behind me, grab bridle, pull. If the pin won't dislodge, straight to silver. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites btucker 0 #17 August 30, 2005 I believe the APF recommendation {I’m sure Dave will correct me if I’m wrong } is "if any attempt to deploy the main has been made, and time and altitude permits: Execute a cutaway and then fire the reserve." Sounds abit bureaucratic to me, but it has merit. If your low, get something out fast. If you have more time – then do the job right. When the reserve deploys it can change the shape of the container – which might cause the main to open. OTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware. I was taught: Research, talk to instructors, then make your decision. And then stick to it. Blues Benno PS: At the DZ I got the first chapter of story. A jumper {with a territory } was test jumping a reserve. After he cut the main, the reserve had a pilot chute in tow! We where interrupted by the arrival of his student. I have to wait to next weeked to find out what happened. He did mention that he never did another test jump, so I suspect the reserve didn't work to well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #18 August 30, 2005 ????? The only way I can see a reserve being "in tow" is if you would get some sort of bag lock.... is that even possible with the line stow pockets on a modern reserve?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy_Copland 0 #19 August 30, 2005 The PC in tow question again I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments and they all have valid points. Personally i've been taught that if anything is out chop it, and thats what im sticking to because i dont want my brain farting and thinking about other methods while losing altitude. Something i am going to do though is next time im at the dropzone im getting a pal to hold my PC while im laying on my belly and seeing how hard it is to reach the bridle and yank it, just curious 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #20 August 30, 2005 QuoteOTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware.. I can't imagine how cutting away from a PC in tow would open your riser flaps. Can you explain please ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #21 August 30, 2005 QuoteWould you guys try to clear it with your hands before going on silver? Me personally? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #22 August 30, 2005 As someone highlight here you're in a high speed mal - time is critical. Personally for me? (say we're throwing at 3.5k) throw - 2-3 seconds till WTF? glance back - 1-2 seconds for brain to register (we're now at 2.5k) bang containers sides with both elbows hard as i can - 1-2 seconds. (now at 2000ft and 500ft off my hard deck) if I dont feel tha bag lift off INSTANTLY, look, locate, peel/punch, punch. (1-2 seconds) Hopefully under a reserve by 1500, give or take. I hope I can reduce the times it takes me to realise the situation and to perform the required reactions as I gain more experience. You guys pulling at 2k must sure have confidence in your EP's (not saying I don't, just that they might not be as quick as yours! ) Man, I want one of these mals as much as i fancy a horseshoe. At least with a baglock you've got something to chop... Nasty shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #23 August 31, 2005 I can tell ya what I did. saw a pilot chute in tow but it wasn't inflated(it actualy was cocked, it had just knotted it self when i pitched out), reached back once to try to pull it out but wasn't doing anything and as I was on a hop n pop at 3000 I was accelerating and pulled silver just as I was trained to do. I actualy don't remember actualy thinking of doing any of those steps. it was all muscle memory and training. I have practiced trying to clear my PC in tow and practiced going straight to silver. thank god it all worked out for me... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #24 August 31, 2005 Cutaway Go for Silver ! It happened to me 8 yrs ago when I had 99 jumps on a 20 way (I was base) and it turned into a zoo. Base tracked off too low - dumped at under 2000ft - no deployment. Scary shit and time just flies. Tried reaching my bridle once to no avail - pulled cutaway and then reserve ! As my reserve opened my main released from my bag and deployed behind me. I was pretty releived it wasn't hooked up any longer - the spot was terrible, over a city and as it was ended up landing on a railway line (only clear area - the rest was houses). It would have sucked had I had a two out scenario trying to find a suitable place to land. And I was relatively inexperienced. 5 seconds is just that - five seconds. People don't seem to realise that the time taken from when you deploy your pilot chute to when the the main opens takes a couple of seconds - if your main does not deploy for any reason, be it pilot chute in tow or bag lock it still takes a couple of seconds to acknowledge and diagnose the problem (there is no neon sign saying "pilot chute in tow") and then to make a decision and act on that decision. My point is if you have one set of EPs for one problem (say pilot chute in tow) and another for another problem (say bag lock) then you may just run into problems reaching that decision particularly if inexperienced. Remember you are in a high stress situation (and it is high stress believe me - a high speed mal is frightening). So for me its one set of procedures - right, left, arch. And I NEVER dump low - in the saddle by 2500ft. I cannot stress the importance of muscle memory either. Practice. I didn't even think, there was no time (the Rock is a big dark place at 1000ft at speeds of 120mph) ! One of my instructors years ago told me as a newby qualified skydiver when I was still doing solos to do a belly jump and just look at my handles, place my hands on them (basicallypractice EPs) while still in freefall. And stay stable. A good learning experience. A good many skydivers have never tried it themselves. In the end the whole experience was a good learning experience. It told me I could cope with a high stress situation and my EPs were good. I was pissed off because some brat stole my main and reserve PC though !! Cheers Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philly51 0 #25 August 31, 2005 Last year I had a bag lock on a borrowed rig. On the 2nd jump of the day, pitched at 3k, and nothing. Elbowed the container, tried to reach the bridle, no dice. Cutaway and the rsl pulled the reserve. Uneventful landing. When I hit the ground, the D bag fell out of the container. A fellow jumper told me that he saw the deployment, the container opened, full bridle extension, pc inflated and zip. Did I do the right thing? I'm here talking about it. Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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tdog 0 #13 August 30, 2005 QuoteAm I to assume you visualize without actually touching the handles, or are you actually going for them? On that track I did actually touch them at the very end as I was slowing down. My feet were still tracking, but my arms came in... I am sure I lost some efficiency, but I kept aware of where my pals were and did not compromise the safety of the jump. Our breakoff was high, so our tracks were long. I see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... For me, I needed to know that I could do the EPs after turning a lot of points in a high pressure environment... It worked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #14 August 30, 2005 QuoteI see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... I also would not advocate teaching this to someone with 30 jumps....Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #15 August 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteI see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... I also would not advocate teaching this to someone with 30 jumps.... Ok... So to clarify... I agree - practicing EPs physically during a track is a bad idea unless planned for ahead of time. The time I did it, I asked my friends to break early "because I needed some time to reset from the 4 way stuff and practice getting my mind ready for the next step". It was part of the dive flow, not something thrown in without being part of the plan. However, I believe someone with 30 jumps (or maybe 40, or maybe 100 if they did a lot of solos) is the perfect target audience for the comment, "during your track, evaluate your EP mindset and refresh your memory on what to do. It is easy to get overwhelmed with the overload of everything you are trying to accomplish during the freefall and not be in the proper mental state to handle EPs..." Why I say that? Because I know my jumps 35 to 140 ish were my "get my feet wet jumps" where I was trying new things and leaving the comfort zone of jumping with highly experienced instructors who were predictable and focused. All of a sudden, I was jumping with people who had less experience and sometimes struggled with the basics, like I was doing myself... If this comment was not said to the 50 or so jump person, they would not learn from it when they needed it the most... But maybe I am an isolated case. Maybe others don't go over the line as much as I did early on when experiencing so many things for the first time... But I think we just hyjacked this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Peej 0 #16 August 30, 2005 Reach round behind me, grab bridle, pull. If the pin won't dislodge, straight to silver. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites btucker 0 #17 August 30, 2005 I believe the APF recommendation {I’m sure Dave will correct me if I’m wrong } is "if any attempt to deploy the main has been made, and time and altitude permits: Execute a cutaway and then fire the reserve." Sounds abit bureaucratic to me, but it has merit. If your low, get something out fast. If you have more time – then do the job right. When the reserve deploys it can change the shape of the container – which might cause the main to open. OTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware. I was taught: Research, talk to instructors, then make your decision. And then stick to it. Blues Benno PS: At the DZ I got the first chapter of story. A jumper {with a territory } was test jumping a reserve. After he cut the main, the reserve had a pilot chute in tow! We where interrupted by the arrival of his student. I have to wait to next weeked to find out what happened. He did mention that he never did another test jump, so I suspect the reserve didn't work to well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #18 August 30, 2005 ????? The only way I can see a reserve being "in tow" is if you would get some sort of bag lock.... is that even possible with the line stow pockets on a modern reserve?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy_Copland 0 #19 August 30, 2005 The PC in tow question again I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments and they all have valid points. Personally i've been taught that if anything is out chop it, and thats what im sticking to because i dont want my brain farting and thinking about other methods while losing altitude. Something i am going to do though is next time im at the dropzone im getting a pal to hold my PC while im laying on my belly and seeing how hard it is to reach the bridle and yank it, just curious 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #20 August 30, 2005 QuoteOTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware.. I can't imagine how cutting away from a PC in tow would open your riser flaps. Can you explain please ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #21 August 30, 2005 QuoteWould you guys try to clear it with your hands before going on silver? Me personally? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #22 August 30, 2005 As someone highlight here you're in a high speed mal - time is critical. Personally for me? (say we're throwing at 3.5k) throw - 2-3 seconds till WTF? glance back - 1-2 seconds for brain to register (we're now at 2.5k) bang containers sides with both elbows hard as i can - 1-2 seconds. (now at 2000ft and 500ft off my hard deck) if I dont feel tha bag lift off INSTANTLY, look, locate, peel/punch, punch. (1-2 seconds) Hopefully under a reserve by 1500, give or take. I hope I can reduce the times it takes me to realise the situation and to perform the required reactions as I gain more experience. You guys pulling at 2k must sure have confidence in your EP's (not saying I don't, just that they might not be as quick as yours! ) Man, I want one of these mals as much as i fancy a horseshoe. At least with a baglock you've got something to chop... Nasty shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #23 August 31, 2005 I can tell ya what I did. saw a pilot chute in tow but it wasn't inflated(it actualy was cocked, it had just knotted it self when i pitched out), reached back once to try to pull it out but wasn't doing anything and as I was on a hop n pop at 3000 I was accelerating and pulled silver just as I was trained to do. I actualy don't remember actualy thinking of doing any of those steps. it was all muscle memory and training. I have practiced trying to clear my PC in tow and practiced going straight to silver. thank god it all worked out for me... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tustinr 1 #24 August 31, 2005 Cutaway Go for Silver ! It happened to me 8 yrs ago when I had 99 jumps on a 20 way (I was base) and it turned into a zoo. Base tracked off too low - dumped at under 2000ft - no deployment. Scary shit and time just flies. Tried reaching my bridle once to no avail - pulled cutaway and then reserve ! As my reserve opened my main released from my bag and deployed behind me. I was pretty releived it wasn't hooked up any longer - the spot was terrible, over a city and as it was ended up landing on a railway line (only clear area - the rest was houses). It would have sucked had I had a two out scenario trying to find a suitable place to land. And I was relatively inexperienced. 5 seconds is just that - five seconds. People don't seem to realise that the time taken from when you deploy your pilot chute to when the the main opens takes a couple of seconds - if your main does not deploy for any reason, be it pilot chute in tow or bag lock it still takes a couple of seconds to acknowledge and diagnose the problem (there is no neon sign saying "pilot chute in tow") and then to make a decision and act on that decision. My point is if you have one set of EPs for one problem (say pilot chute in tow) and another for another problem (say bag lock) then you may just run into problems reaching that decision particularly if inexperienced. Remember you are in a high stress situation (and it is high stress believe me - a high speed mal is frightening). So for me its one set of procedures - right, left, arch. And I NEVER dump low - in the saddle by 2500ft. I cannot stress the importance of muscle memory either. Practice. I didn't even think, there was no time (the Rock is a big dark place at 1000ft at speeds of 120mph) ! One of my instructors years ago told me as a newby qualified skydiver when I was still doing solos to do a belly jump and just look at my handles, place my hands on them (basicallypractice EPs) while still in freefall. And stay stable. A good learning experience. A good many skydivers have never tried it themselves. In the end the whole experience was a good learning experience. It told me I could cope with a high stress situation and my EPs were good. I was pissed off because some brat stole my main and reserve PC though !! Cheers Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philly51 0 #25 August 31, 2005 Last year I had a bag lock on a borrowed rig. On the 2nd jump of the day, pitched at 3k, and nothing. Elbowed the container, tried to reach the bridle, no dice. Cutaway and the rsl pulled the reserve. Uneventful landing. When I hit the ground, the D bag fell out of the container. A fellow jumper told me that he saw the deployment, the container opened, full bridle extension, pc inflated and zip. Did I do the right thing? I'm here talking about it. Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
tdog 0 #15 August 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteI see your point... I would not advocate doing this on a tight situation or when you know you are close to your friends... I also would not advocate teaching this to someone with 30 jumps.... Ok... So to clarify... I agree - practicing EPs physically during a track is a bad idea unless planned for ahead of time. The time I did it, I asked my friends to break early "because I needed some time to reset from the 4 way stuff and practice getting my mind ready for the next step". It was part of the dive flow, not something thrown in without being part of the plan. However, I believe someone with 30 jumps (or maybe 40, or maybe 100 if they did a lot of solos) is the perfect target audience for the comment, "during your track, evaluate your EP mindset and refresh your memory on what to do. It is easy to get overwhelmed with the overload of everything you are trying to accomplish during the freefall and not be in the proper mental state to handle EPs..." Why I say that? Because I know my jumps 35 to 140 ish were my "get my feet wet jumps" where I was trying new things and leaving the comfort zone of jumping with highly experienced instructors who were predictable and focused. All of a sudden, I was jumping with people who had less experience and sometimes struggled with the basics, like I was doing myself... If this comment was not said to the 50 or so jump person, they would not learn from it when they needed it the most... But maybe I am an isolated case. Maybe others don't go over the line as much as I did early on when experiencing so many things for the first time... But I think we just hyjacked this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #16 August 30, 2005 Reach round behind me, grab bridle, pull. If the pin won't dislodge, straight to silver. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #17 August 30, 2005 I believe the APF recommendation {I’m sure Dave will correct me if I’m wrong } is "if any attempt to deploy the main has been made, and time and altitude permits: Execute a cutaway and then fire the reserve." Sounds abit bureaucratic to me, but it has merit. If your low, get something out fast. If you have more time – then do the job right. When the reserve deploys it can change the shape of the container – which might cause the main to open. OTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware. I was taught: Research, talk to instructors, then make your decision. And then stick to it. Blues Benno PS: At the DZ I got the first chapter of story. A jumper {with a territory } was test jumping a reserve. After he cut the main, the reserve had a pilot chute in tow! We where interrupted by the arrival of his student. I have to wait to next weeked to find out what happened. He did mention that he never did another test jump, so I suspect the reserve didn't work to well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #18 August 30, 2005 ????? The only way I can see a reserve being "in tow" is if you would get some sort of bag lock.... is that even possible with the line stow pockets on a modern reserve?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #19 August 30, 2005 The PC in tow question again I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments and they all have valid points. Personally i've been taught that if anything is out chop it, and thats what im sticking to because i dont want my brain farting and thinking about other methods while losing altitude. Something i am going to do though is next time im at the dropzone im getting a pal to hold my PC while im laying on my belly and seeing how hard it is to reach the bridle and yank it, just curious 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #20 August 30, 2005 QuoteOTOH {worse on some rigs} it’s not a good idea to cutaway because of the flapping risers and hardware.. I can't imagine how cutting away from a PC in tow would open your riser flaps. Can you explain please ??scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #21 August 30, 2005 QuoteWould you guys try to clear it with your hands before going on silver? Me personally? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #22 August 30, 2005 As someone highlight here you're in a high speed mal - time is critical. Personally for me? (say we're throwing at 3.5k) throw - 2-3 seconds till WTF? glance back - 1-2 seconds for brain to register (we're now at 2.5k) bang containers sides with both elbows hard as i can - 1-2 seconds. (now at 2000ft and 500ft off my hard deck) if I dont feel tha bag lift off INSTANTLY, look, locate, peel/punch, punch. (1-2 seconds) Hopefully under a reserve by 1500, give or take. I hope I can reduce the times it takes me to realise the situation and to perform the required reactions as I gain more experience. You guys pulling at 2k must sure have confidence in your EP's (not saying I don't, just that they might not be as quick as yours! ) Man, I want one of these mals as much as i fancy a horseshoe. At least with a baglock you've got something to chop... Nasty shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #23 August 31, 2005 I can tell ya what I did. saw a pilot chute in tow but it wasn't inflated(it actualy was cocked, it had just knotted it self when i pitched out), reached back once to try to pull it out but wasn't doing anything and as I was on a hop n pop at 3000 I was accelerating and pulled silver just as I was trained to do. I actualy don't remember actualy thinking of doing any of those steps. it was all muscle memory and training. I have practiced trying to clear my PC in tow and practiced going straight to silver. thank god it all worked out for me... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #24 August 31, 2005 Cutaway Go for Silver ! It happened to me 8 yrs ago when I had 99 jumps on a 20 way (I was base) and it turned into a zoo. Base tracked off too low - dumped at under 2000ft - no deployment. Scary shit and time just flies. Tried reaching my bridle once to no avail - pulled cutaway and then reserve ! As my reserve opened my main released from my bag and deployed behind me. I was pretty releived it wasn't hooked up any longer - the spot was terrible, over a city and as it was ended up landing on a railway line (only clear area - the rest was houses). It would have sucked had I had a two out scenario trying to find a suitable place to land. And I was relatively inexperienced. 5 seconds is just that - five seconds. People don't seem to realise that the time taken from when you deploy your pilot chute to when the the main opens takes a couple of seconds - if your main does not deploy for any reason, be it pilot chute in tow or bag lock it still takes a couple of seconds to acknowledge and diagnose the problem (there is no neon sign saying "pilot chute in tow") and then to make a decision and act on that decision. My point is if you have one set of EPs for one problem (say pilot chute in tow) and another for another problem (say bag lock) then you may just run into problems reaching that decision particularly if inexperienced. Remember you are in a high stress situation (and it is high stress believe me - a high speed mal is frightening). So for me its one set of procedures - right, left, arch. And I NEVER dump low - in the saddle by 2500ft. I cannot stress the importance of muscle memory either. Practice. I didn't even think, there was no time (the Rock is a big dark place at 1000ft at speeds of 120mph) ! One of my instructors years ago told me as a newby qualified skydiver when I was still doing solos to do a belly jump and just look at my handles, place my hands on them (basicallypractice EPs) while still in freefall. And stay stable. A good learning experience. A good many skydivers have never tried it themselves. In the end the whole experience was a good learning experience. It told me I could cope with a high stress situation and my EPs were good. I was pissed off because some brat stole my main and reserve PC though !! Cheers Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philly51 0 #25 August 31, 2005 Last year I had a bag lock on a borrowed rig. On the 2nd jump of the day, pitched at 3k, and nothing. Elbowed the container, tried to reach the bridle, no dice. Cutaway and the rsl pulled the reserve. Uneventful landing. When I hit the ground, the D bag fell out of the container. A fellow jumper told me that he saw the deployment, the container opened, full bridle extension, pc inflated and zip. Did I do the right thing? I'm here talking about it. Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
