Wow, we had a really safe year

[captain1976 0]

Looks like 2011 had less than half the fatalities of any previous year. Lets keep up the good work and get it down to nothing. Well, I know that won't happen but we're off to a good start

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[fencebuster 7]

Really? Are you kidding? We had stupid accidents involving very experienced skydivers that should never have happened. Two AFFI's colliding in the landing pattern? You must be kidding. We need to do some work on judgment in 2012.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[jtval 0]

I haven't been keeping track but if 32 is the average I feel like we were closer to that number than to half of it.
What was the real number?

Of course, none of these "numbers" are acceptable. I wish my friends would stop dying. But, if we did, in fact, halve the average then, I can take some solace in the fact that only half the people died this year.

My photos

My Videos

[Marisan 0]

And 14 of the 24 were under a fully open functioning canopy

[Divalent 89]

Half of what? Are you talking worldwide? US? North America?

The incidents forum here list 24 total civilian US fatalities in 2011 (and I think at least 4 more in Canada). I'm pretty sure that is more than last year.

Here's the US list (excludes purely military fatalities):

Fatality - Perris, California - 27 - December 2011
Fatality? - Lake Wales, FL - 12 November 2011
2 Tandem fatality X2 - MESQUITE, Nev -9 October 2011
Northumberland NY Fatality Sept 18th 2011
Fatality - Air Capitol, Kansas - 13th September 2011
Fatal - Midair Elsinore - 26 Aug 2011
Fatality - Snohomish WA - 18 AUG 2011
Fatality - Lost Praire. MT - 30 July 2011
Fatality - Skydive The Farm, GA - 23 July 2011
Fatality - Skydive Hawaii - 10 July 2011
Fatality - Hollister CA - 17 June 2011
Fatality - Skydive Cross Keys - 27 May 2011
Fatality - Skydive Chicago - 8 May 2011
Fatality - Ft Morgan,CO 5/7/11 Landing Incident
Fatality - Palatka - 30 April 2011
Fatality - Canopy collision - Perris - 4/15/2011
2 Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011
Fatality - Cross Keys - 3/25/11
Wamego, Kansas fatality - 6th March 2011
2 Fatality * 2 - Spaceland, TX - Mar. 2, 2011
Perris fatality 2/27/11

[leandercool 0]

Skydiving is evolving really fast, but remember that we're just at the beginning of the evolution. It's like cars: WE are still the oldtimers ;)

In a few years there will be lots of improvements of rules and gear.
24 people is still 24 too much. And if these 24 are just U.S, than there are a lot more than we thought. But still, we are improving.

From 0 to 12.000 in 9 minutes

[spikes2020 0]

is it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those?

I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris?

I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24....

Any statisticians here? this just seems really high.

Cheers

Jon W

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

is it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those?

I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris?

I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24....

Any statisticians here? this just seems really high.

Perris had a bad run this year.

[Deisel 37]

From the USPA website:

U.S. Skydiving Fatalities by Year
2010 – 21
2009 – 16
2008 – 30
2007 – 18
2006 – 21
2005 – 27
2004 – 21
2003 – 25
2002 – 33
2001 – 35
2000 – 32
1999 – 27
1998 – 44

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

is it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those?

I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris?

I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24....

Any statisticians here? this just seems really high.

That's the question~ how MANY skydives were made in total at Perris...

Then too you may want to factor in that it's a 'destination' dropzone, meaning a fair percentage of the jumpers may not be 'from' that DZ.

Statistics can be manipulated to show pretty much what ever you want to...for example a small 182 DZ that may have had only one fatality and done 1/10th the jumps is statically much more 'dangerous' than Perris if that's all you're looking at.

IMHO...Perris has good aircraft, good pilots, open areas to land, a fantastic staff in general.

It's just the way the dice roll sometimes...personally I don't think Perris is any more dangerous than anywhere else, and probably quite a bit less so than some DZ's I've visited.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[spikes2020 0]

Quote

Then too you may want to factor in that it's a 'destination' dropzone, meaning a fair percentage of the jumpers may not be 'from' that DZ.

I think that might have been what i was trying to get at...

Not sure if this is the problem but i have noticed that if you have a lot of jumps say.... 1000 or so and walk on to a new DZ, after your inital inspection of the log book or what ever is required... there is really nothing else.....

Maybe large DZs that get a lot of guests could have some pre-brefing or something more.... required before you get to jump.

I hate to compare it to air lines but every time you get on the airplane they remind you about the exits and where the life vests are.... I really only pay attention to those two parts as each airplane is different and hides them in different locations... (is my seat my floatation device or is it under it... or between the seats.... just an example)

Like i said i dont know if it would help but maybe just an idea

Cheers

Jon W

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Maybe large DZs that get a lot of guests could have some pre-brefing or something more.... required before you get to jump.

I hate to compare it to air lines but every time you get on the airplane they remind you about the exits and where the life vests are.... I really only pay attention to those two parts as each airplane is different and hides them in different locations... (is my seat my floatation device or is it under it... or between the seats.... just an example)

Like i said i dont know if it would help but maybe just an idea

It is a good idea, and it's something that I always ask for when I go to a new DZ for the first time (or if I haven't been in a while), if it's not offered. It is offered at a lot of DZs, required at some for the first visit. I encourage newer skydivers to get thorough briefings when they go to new DZs, and I'm always willing to offer one to a visitor to my home DZ.

Some DZs are more proactive, others leave it up to the jumper to ask. Perris, in fact, is one of the ones that does a pretty elaborate briefing for the first visit, and as far as I know, it's mandatory for all jumpers new to the DZ regardless of experience.

However, since several of the incidents there this year involved locals, it wouldn't have been a relevant factor in those.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[peek 20]

Quote

From the USPA website:

U.S. Skydiving Fatalities by Year
2010 – 21
2009 – 16
2008 – 30
2007 – 18
2006 – 21
2005 – 27
2004 – 21
2003 – 25
2002 – 33
2001 – 35
2000 – 32
1999 – 27
1998 – 44

2011 - 25
as far as my records indicate.

[chrisward3 0]

I agree any number is too many however, I'd like to see how many jumps were made, and by how many skydivers. This sport is always welcoming new members (myself included), and I can only assume that more and more jumps are being made every year. If we look solely at the final tally, it looks like it is holding fairly consistent over the past 10+ years. But if we welcomed XXXX number of new skydivers over that time, I'd argue that the percentage of fatalities has gone down.

With the training, coaching, and constant supervision ive received since taking up the sport...i'd say we're moving in the right direction (you can decide at what pace). This is a self-regulated sport, and something that alot of the DZOs and experienced jumpers take a lot of pride in maintaining.

As annoying as it may be at times to get told I cant go do "this" type of jump or "that"...I know that we are always looking out for our own...and in turn that encourages us all to practice, get better, be more aware, and train...to chase after those new challenges or disciplines that skydiving has to offer.

In a sport that poses many dangers and what-ifs...I think we are continuing in the right direction

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

This sport is always welcoming new members (myself included), and I can only assume that more and more jumps are being made every year.

False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid.
Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing.

[sacex250 0]

Quote

Perris is regarded as one of the world’s foremost facilities and has more than 140,000 jumps per year, Brodsky-Chenfeld said, which is about 5 percent of the 3 million jumps nationally in the United States. Because of the high volume of jumps, the facility is more likely to have tragedies.

From Here

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Perris, in fact, is one of the ones that does a pretty elaborate briefing for the first visit, and as far as I know, it's mandatory for all jumpers new to the DZ regardless of experience.

I'd say a statistical anomaly, maybe, like flipping a coin and getting "heads" 5-6 times in a row. It does happen. I've jumped Perris and they have a good DZ with a good safety culture.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid.
Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing.

True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago.

Year	Skydiving Fatalities in U.S.	Estimated Annual Jumps	Fatalities Per 1000 Jumps

2010	21	3.0 million	0.007

2009	16	3.0 million	0.005

2008	30	2.6 million	0.012

2007	18	2.5 million	0.007

2006	21	2.5 million	0.008

2005	27	2.6 million	0.010

2004	21	2.6 million	0.008

2003	25	2.6 million	0.010

2002	33	2.6 million	0.013

2001	35	2.6 million	0.013

2000	32	2.7 million	0.012

So, as usual, in your rush to disparage another poster, you're wrong.

I might suggest that you take a look at the way you "talk" to posters on this website. You could do with a little less condescension, and a little more information.

Ian

ps: For this actually interested, here are the USPA statistics
http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspx

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sundevil777 94]

His reply didn't seem condescending to me at all. Yours was though.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[spikes2020 0]

Quote

Quote

Perris is regarded as one of the world’s foremost facilities and has more than 140,000 jumps per year, Brodsky-Chenfeld said, which is about 5 percent of the 3 million jumps nationally in the United States. Because of the high volume of jumps, the facility is more likely to have tragedies.

I agree.... thank you for finding those numbers !!

Just wondering if it was getting it's percentage of events or way more.....

Quote

I'd say a statistical anomaly, maybe, like flipping a coin and getting "heads" 5-6 times in a row. It does happen. I've jumped Perris and they have a good DZ with a good safety culture.

I agree but sometimes if it does it 10 to 15 times in a row, you do start to question the coin.... It just seemed like a big outlier (not saying that the DZ is un-safe as i have never been there)

Cheers

Jon W

[Bertt 0]

From a statistical point of view, 4/24 is too small a sample size to draw conclusions. If XYZ dropzone had 400 fatalities out of a total of 2400, that would be more meaningful.
e.g. A few years ago, two skydivers were killed in a canopy collision at a boogie that takes place for one week, once a year. Those two deaths were about 10 percent of all skydiving deaths in the U.S. that year, but the incident really depended on one guy doing one dumb move.
It's useful to look at every incident to see if anything can be learned, but raw percentages can be misleading.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid.
Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing.

True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago.

The original poster assumed that total jumps by all jumpers was always rising. But just because the average modern jumper makes more jumps per year as you claim, doesn't automatically mean that total jumps per year by all jumpers is always on the rise. Your own data chart shows that to not be true. You can have fewer jumpers, and the more jumps per capita from those that are still jumping, won't necessarily make up for the jump numbers "lost" by having fewer jumpers. Total jumps, and average jumps per jumper, are two different things.

[PiLFy 0]

I read somewhere that Perris has approximately 150,000 jumps a year(?) I don't remember the source. Agreed that numbers can be played with to suit the study. However, don't most other decent size DZs do 15-20K jumps a year?

[Divalent 89]

Quote

2011 - 25
as far as my records indicate.

Could you look at my list above (in post #5, I believe) and let me know
what additional one I overlooked? That list is (I think) in reverse
chronological order, and I got them from the threads in the incidence
forum. (I didn't include purely military fatalities, but did include
the death of the british soldier training at Elsinore)

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

Quote

***False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid.
Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing.

True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago.

Year	Skydiving Fatalities in U.S.	Estimated Annual Jumps	Fatalities Per 1000 Jumps

2010	21	3.0 million	0.007

2009	16	3.0 million	0.005

2008	30	2.6 million	0.012

2007	18	2.5 million	0.007

2006	21	2.5 million	0.008

2005	27	2.6 million	0.010

2004	21	2.6 million	0.008

2003	25	2.6 million	0.010

2002	33	2.6 million	0.013

2001	35	2.6 million	0.013

2000	32	2.7 million	0.012

So, as usual, in your rush to disparage another poster, you're wrong.

I might suggest that you take a look at the way you "talk" to posters on this website. You could do with a little less condescension, and a little more information.

Ian

ps: For this actually interested, here are the USPA statistics
http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspx

I'm shaking my head here.

What sprang to mind as I read this post was a quote I read somewhere, I think attributed to Unca Joe Stalin....

" One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is just a statistic".

Please advise the family and friends of all the dead people that 2011 was a good year.......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....