goose491 0 #26 November 4, 2005 Quote Personally, I think you miscalculated the risks and rewards of both and came to the wrong conclusion. You can't make that sort of comment about MY evaluation of risk vs. reward. You may have heard many chime in about the risk of using the RSL, but you have no idea of the reward I acheive by not using it. Example, I fear a canopy wrap more than any other situation I can fathom in this sport. Yet, I still enjoy bumpin' end cells with a mate. For me, not having to disconect the RSL before a chop -if I ever had some sort of entanglement with another canopy or mine own- is a reward for my not using one. Thing is, you cannot make a "personally, I yadda yadda..."-type comment on that because you have no idea what that particular peace of mind is worth to me. It's worth more to me then the peace of mind I could get from knowing an RSL will likely get my reserve out a half a second faster then I can get it out myself. I did not make the wrong choice. I made the right one. And though yours may differ, you did not make the wrong one either. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #27 November 4, 2005 That's an excellent set of reasons for you. They might be lousy reasons for someone else. WTF can't we focus on making sure that the pros and cons are well aired instead of the "are too/are not" device dependent... Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #28 November 4, 2005 Not getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #29 November 4, 2005 QuoteThat's an excellent set of reasons for you. They might be lousy reasons for someone else. WTF can't we focus on making sure that the pros and cons are well aired instead of the "are too/are not" device dependent... Thanks Wendy, that's sort of my point. I weigh the peace of mind I get from one option against the peace of mind I get from another. That's how I find what is right for me. I explain why I do not jump one, I defend those that don't against those that would say they are careless or dumb... but I'll not call you dependant for using one unless you clearly are. This girl however, was. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #30 November 4, 2005 QuoteThis girl however, was. Yeppir. Even if the reason was ignorance, not doing anything to save your own life is pretty good evidence of depending on something. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #31 November 4, 2005 QuoteNot getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to. You are right... and if you want to make sure you dont die skydiving, stop jumping.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #32 November 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to. You are right... and if you want to make sure you dont die skydiving, stop jumping. Help me here. I can think of your reply from a couple of different points of view........"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #33 November 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere were 2 incident reports of fatalities due to low cutaways and late reserve pulls. RSL's would have probably prevented both of those fatalities. And proper emergency procedures would have saved them also. Right, so having a RSL AND learning proper EPs will double your chance of survival.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #34 November 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to. You are right... and if you want to make sure you dont die skydiving, stop jumping. That's equivalent to not going on the road if you want to avoid traffic accidents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 November 5, 2005 QuoteOne must consider that given a certain sized canopy, if he/she was to have a premature out the door on a high enough altitude pass, then he/she could not even spiral down fast enough to avoid passing out from lack of oxygen... and staying out long enough to cause brain injury. Again, that being under a big enough canopy. The cold is another issue or course. What height are you thinking about? Even at 23k, the descent rate of the canopy should be sufficient, though I wouldn't go out of my way to experiment. Just a couple thousand lower, oxygen isn't an issue, though cold might. Doing a rare 30k, you can always remove the RSL. (even my tri 220 descends at sea level at a rate over 1000ft/min, flying straight. At 20k, that's going to be substantially higher) So what you're talking about leads back to the discussions of giving up a perfectly good main for a highly reliable but not 100% guaranteed reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pash 0 #36 November 5, 2005 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aside from camera jumpers and CRW Dogs.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm curious about this statement. I could understand the logic as to why CRW jumpers might not want a RSL, but why would the same be true of camera jumpers? Can anyone answer this? I suspect something in the way of an entaglement that you might want to clear before you reserve is deployed (say around a sight ring) but not sure. jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,061 #37 November 5, 2005 QuoteThe 2 jumpers lost at WFFC were pretty experienced, and apparently just screwed up their EP's. I was under the impression that both these jumpers had < 100 jumps. I saw both of them and they were were fighting their canopy and did not invoke their EP's until ~300-400' I'm not sure an RSL would have helped.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigorangemd 0 #38 November 5, 2005 One had >1000 one < 100. One cut about 1000 ft. and delayed reserve deployment, the other cut about 600 ft. Would have saved one, maybe the other would have lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #39 November 5, 2005 QuoteNot getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to. It's "moot," not "mute." Next person that says mute is grounded!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apley 0 #40 November 5, 2005 QuoteCan anyone answer this? I suspect something in the way of an entaglement that you might want to clear before you reserve is deployed (say around a sight ring) but not sure. jason yes, jason. you hit the nail on the head. you've seen all that hardware some of us wear... many good cam helmets have a cutaway for the chin strap because snagged lines used to maim and kill camera fliers. imagine a spinning mal on your back with all that crap on your head to catch a line during the emergency. one might be forced to get the knife out, altitude permitting, or pull the helmet cutaway as well , before deploying the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #41 November 5, 2005 QuoteI wear a seatbelt religiously... I wear a helmet religiously (skydiving and motorcycling)... I don't get flu shots... I don't use an RSL... Why no flu shot? Because they only protect you from a few common strains which are usually picked out as an educated guess by vacine proveders. Why no RSL? They add complication to a relatively straight forward process. Does this mean I am "not safe". Nope, it means I educated myself to the pros and cons of each item and made an informed decision. People should be free to make these decisions according to their own priorities. While I support and endorse the use of seat belts and helmet, they also do have drawbacks beyond the scope of this thread and I would not presume to label someone as "unsafe" because their decision process led them to another conclusion than mine. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. I'm getting fucking tired of these forums. Do what you wanna do, it's a free country. Maybe we'll be reading about you next on "the sports page". Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #42 November 5, 2005 QuoteAt the proper alt. Bingo. You can dance with the devil, but only for so long.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #43 November 5, 2005 Sweet, it's been a while since a random person told me I was going to bounce. Awesome, thanks!!! That's right, it's a free country, so try to not screw it up for everyone else that still values personal freedom even though you obviously don't.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #44 November 5, 2005 QuoteSweet, it's been a while since a random person told me I was going to bounce. Awesome, thanks!!! That's right, it's a free country, so try to not screw it up for everyone else that still values personal freedom even though you obviously don't. Holy crap, talk about your non-sequiturs. He wasn't saying that at all....boy, was that ever a Speaker's Corner kind of reply.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #45 November 5, 2005 pulling the silver handle would have achieved the same, a backup device is just that... perform your EP's correctly and in a timely fashion and having an rsl is irrelivant. Backup devices should never take the place of correct EP's - practice, and when your sick of doing it, practice it more. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #46 November 5, 2005 I'm busted"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 198 #47 November 5, 2005 Everyone here is assuming these 2 people didn't execute their EP's at an altitude that would have saved their lives because they lacked some skills or awareness the rest of us possess. Not true. Unfortunately we can't ask them why. Shit happens...I talked with a freind last weekend who opened into a spinner. She said the handles weren't where she expected them to be. She had an RSL and it beat her to silver. Perhaps these people had something different happen. I'm pretty sure that a good friend of mine who went in years ago after cutting away from a wrap couldn't find silver. No jumpsuit...perhaps his shirt came untucked and blew up over the handle. We'll never know and that will always bother me. He most definitely would have had a better chance of still being with us with an RSL. I don't have an RSL now...I will by next season.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #48 November 5, 2005 QuoteEveryone here is assuming these 2 people didn't execute their EP's at an altitude that would have saved their lives because they lacked some skills or awareness the rest of us possess. Not true. Ding, ding, ding... If we were all perfect people, we would not need air bags and seat belts in cars, and we all would be rich because our stock market investments would never suck, and there would be no insurance companies... But, I know I am NOT perfect and I am likely to screw up to some extent on a regular basis... I hope my screw ups NEVER lead to dramatic problems, like low pulls, but I can't rule out the possibility even with all the training I do and practice I get... I am happy I have a skyhook (Thanks Bill). If one day I was loaned a (modern airworthy) rig without an cypres or RSL, I would jump it if I was motivated to, but for my "normal" rig, I want all the help I can get in case I screw up real bad... I see a Skyhook as a great tool... To err is human, face it... In business I have a plan B for most of what I do in case I screw up... I want the same in skydiving, NOT to count on it, but to have it when I need it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #49 November 5, 2005 Lots of interesting debates here. I feel everytime you jump from a plane, it's a roll of the dice. You must do what you can to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible. Those comparisons to car wrecks where the unbelted driver was tossed to safety from the doomed car are very accurate. Those kind of occurences are very rare compared to what usually happens when the occupants are ejected. And those scenarios where the RSL causes a problem are also rare, compared to the number of incidents where an RSL could have prevented a fatality. I've got over a dozen reserve rides, all of them nice and high and by the book, no low openings or unstable deployements. I still use an RSL and an AAD, though, simply because you never know what the next jump may bring. Even if you've never lost track of time or screwed up your EP's, it could happen on the next jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #50 November 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot getting into a car acident makes seat belts a mute point to. It's "moot," not "mute." Next person that says mute is grounded!!! I think they should just be quiet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
