THIS IS WRONG!

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, timski said:

Life used to be a lot less complicated... 

Very true.  And that is at the heart of a lot of the controversy today.  Some people pine for the simpler days, where you stayed in the same town you were born in, you stuck to your own race, the only sexual relationships were between men and women, women obeyed men, and people stayed the same gender.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 hours ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/transgender-woman-with-a-beard-is-now-a-lesbian-is-it-transphobic-if-lesbians-refuse-to-date-a-trans-woman/ar-AA1dqv0C?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=e519115e15104948a3f56323775d2790&ei=25

Life used to be a lot less complicated... 

Of course life, and life forms, used to be a lot less complicated. Unless you believe we were created and are devolving, that is. At an earlier time on these pages I referenced a speech by Sir Martin Rees, Britain's Astronomer Royal, Earth in it's final Century?. He said: "There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be there, experiencing the sun's demise. But any life and intelligence that exists then will be as different from us as we are from bacteria."  

Surely, unless you believe we were created by a God in our present form, you think that must be true. So we are destined to change in the most significant ways but, like the rest of evolution, it will happen slowly and according to unpredictable patterns. Maybe in 5 Billion years we won't be bound to our corporeal selves or maybe we will have evolved into beings that don't need an opposite sex to reproduce or can simply change sex as needed; that's far from unknown in nature, of course. So how does that work? How would it start with humans? Perhaps there will be some sort of genetic confusion in the womb and at birth. Perhaps there would be some form of social gender bending as the need develops or as nature tests a new idea? That's how evolution has always worked, right? The point being that no one can ever know in advance what is right or natural for a species because we are always changing to survive until we go extinct. Our species is alway testing new ideas and the test bed is us. Consequently, we will always fail in our understanding and knowledge if we don't test our held views against artificial time frames; like what we believe today as opposed to what might be tomorrow for example. Grasping that idea alone should be enough to stop any of the prejudicial, bigoted, or negative projections that anyone has about how any of your fellow humans perceive themselves as they live the one life they have under rules that are not written on stone tablets. The times they are a-changin' and, like it or not, so are we. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Of course life, and life forms, used to be a lot less complicated. Unless you believe we were created and are devolving, that is. At an earlier time on these pages I referenced a speech by Sir Martin Rees, Britain's Astronomer Royal, Earth in it's final Century?. He said: "There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be there, experiencing the sun's demise. But any life and intelligence that exists then will be as different from us as we are from bacteria."  

Surely, unless you believe we were created by a God in our present form, you think that must be true. So we are destined to change in the most significant ways but, like the rest of evolution, it will happen slowly and according to unpredictable patterns. Maybe in 5 Billion years we won't be bound to our corporeal selves or maybe we will have evolved into beings that don't need an opposite sex to reproduce or can simply change sex as needed; that's far from unknown in nature, of course. So how does that work? How would it start with humans? Perhaps there will be some sort of genetic confusion in the womb and at birth. Perhaps there would be some form of social gender bending as the need develops or as nature tests a new idea? That's how evolution has always worked, right? The point being that no one can ever know in advance what is right or natural for a species because we are always changing to survive until we go extinct. Our species is alway testing new ideas and the test bed is us. Consequently, we will always fail in our understanding and knowledge if we don't test our held views against artificial time frames; like what we believe today as opposed to what might be tomorrow for example. Grasping that idea alone should be enough to stop any of the prejudicial, bigoted, or negative projections that anyone has about how any of your fellow humans perceive themselves as they live the one life they have under rules that are not written on stone tablets. The times they are a-changin' and, like it or not, so are we. 

Hi Joe,

That they are.  One can choose to get on the train or get left at the station.

Jerry Baumchen 

[Phil1111 911]

18 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

.....The times they are a-changin' and, like it or not, so are we. 

 

5 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

That they are.  One can choose to get on the train or get left at the station.

Jerry Baumchen 

Republicans will likely remain in the station as the only change they like is backwards.

[timski 80]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-individuals-claiming-that-having-the-american-flag-in-front-of-your-house-means-you-re-racist/ar-AA1dtkjs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2d5c41e6c59f4f7290ea7648bffb22df&ei=12

Well then, I guess having my flag balled up in the basement makes me safe from being labeled a racist! Where does it stop??? 

American history is truly a sad one. Slavery was a way of life, way back when (in most parts of the world, in one way or another ). But I digress.  

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-individuals-claiming-that-having-the-american-flag-in-front-of-your-house-means-you-re-racist/ar-AA1dtkjs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2d5c41e6c59f4f7290ea7648bffb22df&ei=12

Well then, I guess having my flag balled up in the basement makes me safe from being labeled a racist! Where does it stop??? 

American history is truly a sad one. Slavery was a way of life, way back when (in most parts of the world, in one way or another ). But I digress.  

Step away from the trough and see that there is a much bigger menu on offer than what you are being fed. For a quick start recognize that human history and world history are bigger things than American history. We propagate in the futile pretense that doing so increases and expands our time but it does not. America will cease to be and with it American jingoism as it has for every society that has preceded us and is now gone. Just the way it is.

[jakee 1,255]

6 hours ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-individuals-claiming-that-having-the-american-flag-in-front-of-your-house-means-you-re-racist/ar-AA1dtkjs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2d5c41e6c59f4f7290ea7648bffb22df&ei=12

Well then, I guess having my flag balled up in the basement makes me safe from being labeled a racist! Where does it stop??? 

Where does what stop? A handful of people saying silly things? That never stops. So….?

 

By the way, here is an actual Twitter quote the author of your article chose to repost in support of his point: “It took 43 presidents to make us stand tall and 1 black guy to unravel it all.” Where does that kind of blatant racism stop???

Edited July 6, 2023 by jakee

[billvon 2,400]

8 hours ago, jakee said:

By the way, here is an actual Twitter quote the author of your article chose to repost in support of his point: “It took 43 presidents to make us stand tall and 1 black guy to unravel it all.” Where does that kind of blatant racism stop???

But he has a black friend so he is NOT RACIST.

[DougH 270]

15 hours ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-individuals-claiming-that-having-the-american-flag-in-front-of-your-house-means-you-re-racist/ar-AA1dtkjs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=2d5c41e6c59f4f7290ea7648bffb22df&ei=12

Giving more than a second of your attention to an article shared on MSN.com is WRONG.

Lots of different people believe and say lots of different things.

From the article:

"In 2021, KUTV states, A Black Lives Matter Utah (BLMU) had a post that was showing significant reactions, surpassing the impact of their street protests. The post claims that individuals who display the American flag are racist and referred to the flag as a symbol of hatred. "

An unattributed "post" from 2021 is news worthy? Newsworthy enough to make it into a current "news story" in 2023? Relevant enough for you at actually read it and then think you should share it here for the rest of us, with bonus commentary from you?

The real world relevance is overwhelming.

This is A+ posting from you, and A+ journalism from The Independent News.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by DougH

[timski 80]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:15 PM, DougH said:

Giving more than a second of your attention to an article shared on MSN.com is WRONG.

Lots of different people believe and say lots of different things.

From the article:

"In 2021, KUTV states, A Black Lives Matter Utah (BLMU) had a post that was showing significant reactions, surpassing the impact of their street protests. The post claims that individuals who display the American flag are racist and referred to the flag as a symbol of hatred. "

An unattributed "post" from 2021 is news worthy? Newsworthy enough to make it into a current "news story" in 2023? Relevant enough for you at actually read it and then think you should share it here for the rest of us, with bonus commentary from you?

The real world relevance is overwhelming.

This is A+ posting from you, and A+ journalism from The Independent News.

I get my "news" from CNN. MSN is what pops up when I click the mouse at work. Not that I give two fucks what you think about me in general. Not being rude, just being real.  

 

 

[timski 80]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/transwoman-wants-to-lactate-starts-a-gofundme-page-to-offer-transgender-milk-did-we-open-some-kind-of-hellish-pandora-s-box/ss-AA1dBikC?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5ac49ca634644f19be93765d4cd219f6&ei=15

 

Blame MSN, not me!!!   "Man milk". Keeps getting "better". 

[lippy 771]

1 hour ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/transwoman-wants-to-lactate-starts-a-gofundme-page-to-offer-transgender-milk-did-we-open-some-kind-of-hellish-pandora-s-box/ss-AA1dBikC?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5ac49ca634644f19be93765d4cd219f6&ei=15

 

Blame MSN, not me!!!   "Man milk". Keeps getting "better". 

I think it would have been physically impossible for you to do a better job of proving the point Doug was trying to make above than what you did with this post.  I'm sure you saw it on CNN first, though.

[timski 80]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/transgender-athlete-wins-women-s-professional-golf-tournament/ar-AA1eBcwM?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=62e2a4cb91be4b7c85fab164428d81aa&ei=15

I know, I know, he's at it again with his hate spouting. But seriously, put yourself in the shoes of the "women" competitors. 

Now for the moral/ethical people out there in the real world, money is on the line here... Sooo, about that line, and where to draw it...? Make no mistake, I don't hate trannies, gays, bisexual, trisexual, or whatever group you want to be in, I'm just compelled to stand up for RIGHT! 

What is right then, you ask? If you really need me to explain it, you have deeper issues. The guy with balls, playing with the ladies with vaginas, and pretending it doesn't matter...    

[gowlerk 1,912]

44 minutes ago, timski said:

What is right then, you ask? If you really need me to explain it, you have deeper issues.

There clearly needs to be a firm line drawn somewhere. Or there is no use having separate competitions for men and women. It is the same as banning the use of drugs to increase muscle mass and strength.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, timski said:

Now for the moral/ethical people out there in the real world, money is on the line here... Sooo, about that line, and where to draw it...? Make no mistake, I don't hate trannies, gays, bisexual, trisexual, or whatever group you want to be in, I'm just compelled to stand up for RIGHT! 

I am too.  People should compete in whatever sports - and with whatever rules - that THEY choose to accept.  No one else.

If a woman wants to compete in a sport with only biological women?  That's fine; she can choose that.

If a woman wants to compete in a sport with anyone who expresses a female gender?  That's also fine; she can choose that too.  You don't get a say.

[kallend 1,623]

3 hours ago, timski said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/transgender-athlete-wins-women-s-professional-golf-tournament/ar-AA1eBcwM?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=62e2a4cb91be4b7c85fab164428d81aa&ei=15

I know, I know, he's at it again with his hate spouting. But seriously, put yourself in the shoes of the "women" competitors. 

Now for the moral/ethical people out there in the real world, money is on the line here... Sooo, about that line, and where to draw it...? Make no mistake, I don't hate trannies, gays, bisexual, trisexual, or whatever group you want to be in, I'm just compelled to stand up for RIGHT! 

What is right then, you ask? If you really need me to explain it, you have deeper issues. The guy with balls, playing with the ladies with vaginas, and pretending it doesn't matter...    

There are far more important things in life than sports.  Get some perspective here.

[gowlerk 1,912]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

If a woman wants to compete in a sport with anyone who expresses a female gender?  That's also fine; she can choose that too.  You don't get a say.

That is more than a little disingenuous. The event was professional and money was involved. Are you saying women can choose to just forego getting paid in order to support the expression of a false gender? I do support the right of anyone to express the gender they choose, or even a mixed gender, but testes give an unfair hormonal advantage in strength to those who have them over those who have ovaries. There is a serious problem here that glib talk is not going to fix.

[tonyhays 86]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

There are far more important things in life than sports.  Get some perspective here.

"Bread and circuses"

[lippy 771]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

There are far more important things in life than sports.  Get some perspective here.

I personally agree with you, but for people competing at elite levels sport is their life.  Ken said it pretty well IMO above...I definitely want sport to be inclusive and don't want to discriminate against anybody based on gender identity...I don't claim to have the answer of how to define what's fair and what's not, but I can understand somebody who's been training for years/decades in a sport being upset to feel like their life's work has been undermined by somebody coming in with an unfair advantage.  

 

*From the golf angle of this, my inner 14-year-old self can't help but think of the 90's punk band NOFX's song 'My Vagina' that's sung from the perspective of a post-op M-F transition.  

"Operation, paid up front

Now I show all my friends, my new designer cunt

They think I'm kinda weird, but that's okay with me

'Cause now I kick their ass, playing from the Ladies' Tee

There's nothin finer, than having' a vagina......"

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

5 minutes ago, lippy said:

I personally agree with you, but for people competing at elite levels sport is their life.  Ken said it pretty well IMO above...I definitely want sport to be inclusive and don't want to discriminate against anybody based on gender identity...I don't claim to have the answer of how to define what's fair and what's not, but I can understand somebody who's been training for years/decades in a sport being upset to feel like their life's work has been undermined by somebody coming in with an unfair advantage.  

 

*From the golf angle of this, my inner 14-year-old self can't help but think of the 90's punk band NOFX's song 'My Vagina' that's sung from the perspective of a post-op M-F transition.  

"Operation, paid up front

Now I show all my friends, my new designer cunt

They think I'm kinda weird, but that's okay with me

'Cause now I kick their ass, playing from the Ladies' Tee

There's nothin finer, than having' a vagina......"

 

And here was me and my dumb ass thinking I was cool for reading Pale Fire to purge Lolita from my memory banks.

[jakee 1,255]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

If a woman wants to compete in a sport with anyone who expresses a female gender?  That's also fine; she can choose that too.  You don't get a say.

Errr, so if someone wants to have a sex change and lose the opportunity to compete in professional sport that’s also fine and they can choose that too. You don’t get a say.
 

The difference in the logic being…?

[wmw999 2,122]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

The difference in the logic being…?

That it’s up to the league to decide. However, what the fans are willing to pay for is part of what will drive the league’s decision, as is the decision process of the top stars (which is what the fans are willing to pay for — see the connection?).

As a non-sports watcher, not my issue to care about. And if Timski is so adamant, he should send emails to the women’s sports league he pays to watch (whether in person or on tv, but preferably in person), to let them know his opinion. They can do more than we can. Well, except for Joe — he has a DZ and can ban transgender athletes if he ever hosts Nationals I guess…. 

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 911]

8 hours ago, lippy said:

....I don't claim to have the answer of how to define what's fair and what's not, but I can understand somebody who's been training for years/decades in a sport being upset to feel like their life's work has been undermined by somebody coming in with an unfair advantage. 

 

9 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

That it’s up to the league to decide. ...

Wendy P. 

Thats my position as well. There are some sports where males have a advantage. powerlifting for one. Some sports skydiving for one, are equal for both.

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

That it’s up to the league to decide.

So Bill equally supports the choices of leagues which do or don’t allow trans participation?

[kallend 1,623]

9 hours ago, lippy said:

I personally agree with you, but for people competing at elite levels sport is their life.  

 

I fail to see why the needs of elite athletes should have any consideration in healthcare policy decisions for chlldren.

I wouldn't cross the street to talk to Tom Brady or LeBron James.