THIS IS WRONG!

[gowlerk 1,912]

2 minutes ago, kallend said:

I fail to see why the needs of elite athletes should have any consideration in healthcare policy decisions for chlldren.

I wouldn't cross the street to talk to Tom Brady or LeBron James.

Neither do I. But that is not the issue at hand. Your disregard for professional sports is something we share, but completely irrelevant in this matter. The right to be treated fairly needs to be extended to everyone. For every "elite athlete" there are 10s of thousands who want to play on an even field. 

[kallend 1,623]

4 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Neither do I. But that is not the issue at hand. Your disregard for professional sports is something we share, but completely irrelevant in this matter. The right to be treated fairly needs to be extended to everyone. For every "elite athlete" there are 10s of thousands who want to play on an even field. 

I didn't bring up "elite athletes" as a constituency here.

To your point, I fail to see why any level of sports should have priority in health care decisions for children.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 hours ago, wmw999 said:

That it’s up to the league to decide. However, what the fans are willing to pay for is part of what will drive the league’s decision, as is the decision process of the top stars (which is what the fans are willing to pay for — see the connection?).

As a non-sports watcher, not my issue to care about. And if Timski is so adamant, he should send emails to the women’s sports league he pays to watch (whether in person or on tv, but preferably in person), to let them know his opinion. They can do more than we can. Well, except for Joe — he has a DZ and can ban transgender athletes if he ever hosts Nationals I guess…. 

Wendy P. 

Bickering over the comparative advantages of my customers genitalia is something I intend to continue avoiding. I figure soccer moms will sort this out amongst themselves the first time a third grade daughter engaging in mixed gender sports comes home with a cauliflower ear or gets clipped in a football game by a mean boy: as dear dad pointed out the one thing that all old assholes have in common is that they were all young assholes. That is to say we're not considered dicks because we have one.

Because it's the right thing to do we need to be inclusive and try to make it work no matter how not right it may seem to some. But try as we might some experiments in inclusion are doomed to fail, like with Sky Boarders for example.

[wmw999 2,122]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Because it's the right thing to do we need to be inclusive and try to make it work no matter how not right it may seem to some. But try as we might some experiments in inclusion are doomed to fail, like with Sky Boarders for example.

Well, I figure I don’t need to opine that much, just as my opinion on whether penises need to be height-adjusted by having shorter penis-equipped people stand on boxes for a pissing contest

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,912]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

To your point, I fail to see why any level of sports should have priority in health care decisions for children.

My point is actually that I agree with you on this. But it is a red herring.

[lippy 771]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

I fail to see why the needs of elite athletes should have any consideration in healthcare policy decisions for children.

They shouldn't.  The point I was trying to make has nothing to do with children's healthcare policy decisions.  Trans kids' medical decisions should be made by the kids, their parents and doctors and the government should stay the hell out of it.  The policies that the likes of DeSantis are pushing are harmful to kids and fucking disgusting.

That's a completely separate issue from high-level sport, in my opinion.  The transgender woman in the article that started this quote chain is in her 30s.  Some people might use this one case as an example of "the horrors of transgender people and why we should outlaw them to protect the children" (it kinda seems that this is what Tim was getting at with his post above).  That talk is frustrating, but it doesn't make all actions of every transgender person fully defensible.  

 

 

[billvon 2,400]

11 hours ago, jakee said:

Errr, so if someone wants to have a sex change and lose the opportunity to compete in professional sport that’s also fine and they can choose that too. You don’t get a say.

Right.  The TEAM and the PLAYER decide.  That trans person can then compete in arena that allows trans people (like the Olympics) but not on a conservative team.

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

57 minutes ago, billvon said:

Right.  The TEAM and the PLAYER decide. 

Back to the subject actually being discussed here. Golf is not a team sport in most cases. The team and the player do not have the last word. The league usually does, as it should.

 

58 minutes ago, billvon said:

That trans person can then compete in arena that allows trans people (like the Olympics) but not on a conservative team.

The Olympic Games generally follow the rules of the governing body for each sport individually. We are not yet sure on what the rules are going to be for Russian athletes in Paris. The Paris games will not be allowing TG athletes in women's track events. They are also tightening the rules for DSD athletes.

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Right.  The TEAM and the PLAYER decide.  That trans person can then compete in arena that allows trans people (like the Olympics) but not on a conservative team.

There are plenty of Olympic sports that trans people cannot compete in - either inside or outside the Olympics themselves. And that’s totally fine and has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, it’s just a sporting decision that you’re absolutely ok with because it doesn’t concern you, right?

Edited August 2, 2023 by jakee

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

There are plenty of Olympic sports that trans people cannot compete in - either inside or outside the Olympics themselves. And that’s totally fine and has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, it’s just a sporting decision that you’re absolutely ok with because it doesn’t concern you, right?

Nope, not right.

But I also look at the rights of people on both sides of the equation.  And the bottom line is that they both have to be taken into consideration.

 

[jakee 1,255]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Nope, not right.

But I also look at the rights of people on both sides of the equation.  And the bottom line is that they both have to be taken into consideration.

So what happened to this?

People should compete in whatever sports - and with whatever rules - that THEY choose to accept.  No one else.

If a woman wants to compete in a sport with only biological women?  That's fine; she can choose that.

[riggerrob 558]

8 hours ago, Slim King said:

I see that athletes that have gone through puberty as a certain sex will not be allowed to cross over in track ...according to this PBS article.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/transgender-athletes-banned-from-track-and-field-competitions-rules-tightened-for-semenya

Wow!

A second time that Slim King and I agree!

Because males - who have grown beyond puberty - have advantages in terms of bone density and muscle-mass - they are doomed to exceed intact females. 

By "intact" I mean women who were born with female genitalia and have never experienced gender-altering surgery, hormone blockers, etc. 

The whole reason that we have gender-specific leagues, masters, POPs, etc. is to allow amateur athletes to continue to compete so that they still have a chance at winning medals on level playing fields. We can agree that a Masters tennis player will never win at the World Meet against first-seed 20-somethings.

The goal of most segregated sports is to encourage everyone to practice a sport because practicing any sport improves your health, improves your morale and extends your life-expectancy.

Edited August 7, 2023 by riggerrob
add a paragraph

[TriGirl 268]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:44 PM, riggerrob said:

Because males - who have grown beyond puberty - have advantages in terms of bone density and muscle-mass - they are doomed to exceed intact females. 

This is my only concern on the issue. 

As for Kallend's question about how this relates to healthcare for children: if the trans kids would be allowed to use puberty blockers (like some elite athletes, like female gymnasts, already do) and hormone replacement, then they could choose to complete surgery as an adult without having gone through a puberty in the wrong body.  Trans women who have not grown up with testosterone, steroids, or any other performance enhancing chemical that a cis woman athlete would be banned for taking, would be on an even level with their competition. 

Note: I studied physics, not biology and human development.  If I am missing something, I more than welcome another perspective!  This is just my reaction based on what I know. Happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

41 minutes ago, TriGirl said:

This is my only concern on the issue. 

As for Kallend's question about how this relates to healthcare for children: if the trans kids would be allowed to use puberty blockers (like some elite athletes, like female gymnasts, already do) and hormone replacement, then they could choose to complete surgery as an adult without having gone through a puberty in the wrong body.  Trans women who have not grown up with testosterone, steroids, or any other performance enhancing chemical that a cis woman athlete would be banned for taking, would be on an even level with their competition. 

Note: I studied physics, not biology and human development.  If I am missing something, I more than welcome another perspective!  This is just my reaction based on what I know. Happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

Maybe we should just ditch sports as an important human endeavor and switch to board games. Problem solved.@

[JoeWeber 2,299]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, JoeWeber said:

Maybe we should just ditch sports as an important human endeavor and switch to board games. Problem solved.@

Well, that didn't age well: "The International Chess Federation, or FIDE, has updated its policy on transgender players, effectively banning trans competitors from participating in official women’s tournaments." So much for a safe space, I reckon.

I understand that the highest ranked female player is at +/- 165th on the world scale. But surely that's more owing to playing against a smaller size pool of players than individual ability. For example, I think I can guarantee you that if Eliana Rodriguez made 10,000 training jumps with me and my yo's instead of Craig Girard and the rest of the world elite her world ranking would have suffered very seriously.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

19 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Well, that didn't age well: "The International Chess Federation, or FIDE, has updated its policy on transgender players, effectively banning trans competitors from participating in official women’s tournaments." So much for a safe space, I reckon.

I understand that the highest ranked female player is at +/- 165th on the world scale. But surely that's more owing to playing against a smaller size pool of players than individual ability. For example, I think I can guarantee you that if Eliana Rodriguez made 10,000 training jumps with me and my yo's instead of Craig Girard and the rest of the world elite her world ranking would have suffered very seriously.

That doesn't make much sense, considering there really aren't any tournaments women are excluded from. There are a few tournaments with a women only category (or the tournament is women only) but that far majority of tournaments are in the Open category and open to all genders.

Still don't understand why there would have to be a women's only category.....

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

That doesn't make much sense, considering there really aren't any tournaments women are excluded from. There are a few tournaments with a women only category (or the tournament is women only) but that far majority of tournaments are in the Open category and open to all genders.

Still don't understand why there would have to be a women's only category.....

Make no sense to me, either, but I'm guessing that some misogynistic Russians and other Eastern Europeans that are heavy into the Chess world thought it was a fine idea to separate the girls. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Make no sense to me, either, but I'm guessing that some misogynistic Russians and other Eastern Europeans that are heavy into the Chess world thought it was a fine idea to separate the girls. 

Except they are not separating the girls. If that is what they wanted there would be men only categories, that isn't the case.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Except they are not separating the girls. If that is what they wanted there would be men only categories, that isn't the case.

Separate then was a poor word choice of mine. But there is, apparently, a separate Women's league that the International Chess Federation wants to keep segregated. Look, I am no expert on the subject and don't know jack.

[wmw999 2,122]

From something by some chess dude in The Conversation (at least as authoritative as Youtube)

Quote

Most chess tournaments are open, to all ages, all genders, and all nationalities. In the United States, the annual “U.S. Open” is one example. However, segregated championships exist, by age (junior championships), geography (state chess championships), by gender, and even by profession (U.S. Armed Forces Open Chess Championship). These segregated tournaments allow those playing to get media attention, benefit financially, and make friends with people with whom they share some similar characteristics.

Wendy P.