kallend 1,623 #226 April 4, 2007 QuoteWhat Nick said. Pops. Just suck it up. You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #227 April 4, 2007 >You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. It is partly a license to do something. It is partly an indication of demonstrated skill and experience. Which is why there are jump number requirements, RW skill requirements etc even though those are not directly applicable to a later license/rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #228 April 4, 2007 QuoteYou continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. I dunno.. I had to prove I could parallel park to get my driver's license and I fail to see how that skill makes me a better driver if I decide never to parallel park. After all, I can always chose to walk instead of parking close, right? Parallel parking scares me. Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #229 April 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhat Nick said. Pops. Just suck it up. You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. No. I do not. Bill said it better / beat me to it. Quote It is partly an indication of demonstrated skill and experience. Remove the Night Jump requriement, fine, but then don't call it a D-License. Call it something else please though as to not confuse folks that hold it with those of us that do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #230 April 4, 2007 Quote>You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. It is partly a license to do something. It is partly an indication of demonstrated skill and experience. Which is why there are jump number requirements, RW skill requirements etc even though those are not directly applicable to a later license/rating. We already have awards for experience: Gold Wings, Diamond Wings, Gold Freefall Badges.... We used to have RW skill awards (Falcon, Eagle..) but in its infinite wisdom USPA did away with them. We still have national championships, records, or demos, though, to show off our skills. A license is a license, an award is an award, a championship medal is a championship medal and a record is a record. They are NOT all the same thing and should NOT be comingled. If you want to do the things permitted by a "D" or any other license, you should not have to demonstrate things extraneous to those privileges.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #231 April 4, 2007 So, Kallend, did you actually do night jumps to get your "D"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #232 April 4, 2007 >If you want to do the things permitted by a "D" or any other license, >you should not have to demonstrate things extraneous to those privileges. Again, your definition of license is wrong when applied to skydiving. A USPA license is NOT just a license to do things, it is also a demonstration of skill/experience. That's one reason it went from 200 to 500 jumps. I know you don't like that definition, but it's the one we have. It seems to work well. In any case the argument is completely academic because you can refuse to do anything you like and still get the license by applying for a restricted one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #233 April 4, 2007 Quote You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. So then the D "license" should have been eliminated in 2003. It doesn't confirm any new rights to the vast majority of people who continue to apply for the "license." Tandem, AFF-I trainer, what else? The fact is that people don't treat it as a license. It is a merit award. (and required for a couple interesting events like the boogie in Belize) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #234 April 5, 2007 Quote So, Kallend, did you actually do night jumps to get your "D"? You could pay some attention to the thread... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #235 April 5, 2007 QuoteQuote You continue to confuse a license with some kind of award of merit or manliness. It isn't. So then the D "license" should have been eliminated in 2003. It doesn't confirm any new rights to the vast majority of people who continue to apply for the "license." Tandem, AFF-I trainer, what else? The fact is that people don't treat it as a license. It is a merit award. (and required for a couple interesting events like the boogie in Belize) People don't treat it as a license because the criteria for it are not relevant. THAT is exactly what needs to be fixed. Since we already have awards and medals and records, why make a LICENSE into an additional award? It makes no sense at all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #236 April 5, 2007 So what do you think are appropriate requirements for each license? I assume there's more you'd change than remove the night jumps from the requirements. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #237 April 5, 2007 QuoteSo what do you think are appropriate requirements for each license? I assume there's more you'd change than remove the night jumps from the requirements. Dave In any scheme of education and training the FIRST step is to define the objectives. Then you devise a program that addresses the objectives and evaluates the outcomes. In our case, each license requirement should be clearly tailored to the specific privileges granted. That's the way it's done in every accredited educational program in the USA, whether in molecular biology or hairdressing. In addition, all accredited education and training programs are expected to review their objectives and evaluation procedures on a regular basis to ensure that they meet current needs and are not obsolete. When was the last time USPA evaluated the objectives of its licensing criteria? Looking at the accident stats, it seems to me that the current pressing need is more canopy control training. I saw someone die just last week under a fully functioning canopy. The week before I saw someone break their pelvis and several vertebrae due to poor canopy control. I don't see a whole lot of people killing themselves on sunset jumps, which so far is the only justification given for the night jump requirement. (I discount "suck it up Sunshine, I had to do it" as a justification).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #238 April 5, 2007 QuoteYour're a pussy . . . And a Brother for life . . . NickD BASE 194 DAMN Straight Bro! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #239 April 5, 2007 Quote People don't treat it as a license because the criteria for it are not relevant. THAT is exactly what needs to be fixed. Since we already have awards and medals and records, why make a LICENSE into an additional award? It makes no sense at all. The fixing was in redefining the D license as the C. I guess they still wanted something left besides mere jump numbers, so the night jumps remained. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #240 April 5, 2007 OK. What I'm seeing is a division between pro and con. Pro: Removing night jumps as a requirement for a D. Con: Keeping the requirement I am pro-removal and asked for reasons for keeping it and reasons why it was attached in the first place. Lots of input from the Cons but, alas, only one input that even comes close to validating the requirement. Lots of diversionary tactics, lots of flaming, lots of simply ignoring the question. I guess I am obviously looking in the wrong place for input. A letter to USPA has been sent. Thanks all.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #241 April 5, 2007 QuoteQuote So, Kallend, did you actually do night jumps to get your "D"? You could pay some attention to the thread Yes, I am paying attention to the thread and for what its worth, my 2 cents, its clear to me you and others like you would like to have the night jump requirement removed from the D-License because you're "not up to it". There, I said it. If you or anyone else isn't up for night jumps, that's fine, but you don't get a D-License and you don't get to be a T.I. or a Pro Rating because you haven't demonstrated the breadth of skill, knowledge and courage... again, refer to what Bill and Nick have said up thread, they said it better then me. That's just the way it is. I know you don't like it, but TOUGH. Life isn't fair, folks should quit going around like their "special" or "entitled" and thinking things should be changed to suit them just because they think they shouldn't have to do this or that or this or that shouldn't apply to them. If its put to a vote amongst the USPA membership, I'll vote for the night jump requirement being retained... for all the good reasons Bill and Nick have stated better then I. If the USPA BOD does away with it without input from the membership, I'll be disappointed and won't be voting for those that voted for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #242 April 5, 2007 I am for it staying!!! "You can't allways get what you want""The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #243 April 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote So, Kallend, did you actually do night jumps to get your "D"? You could pay some attention to the thread Yes, I am paying attention to the thread and for what its worth, my 2 cents, its clear to me you and others like you would like to have the night jump requirement removed from the D-License because you're "not up to it". There, I said it. If you or anyone else isn't up for night jumps, that's fine, but you don't get a D-License and you don't get to be a T.I. or a Pro Rating because you haven't demonstrated the breadth of skill, knowledge and courage... again, refer to what Bill and Nick have said up thread, they said it better then me. That's just the way it is. I know you don't like it, but TOUGH. Life isn't fair, folks should quit going around like their "special" or "entitled" and thinking things should be changed to suit them just because they think they shouldn't have to do this or that or this or that shouldn't apply to them. . Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension? I wrote: "Yes, I HAVE done night jumps. ". You CONTINUE to make this an issue of manliness rather than relevance. A license is not an award for macho.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #244 April 5, 2007 maybe we should have a vote on here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #245 April 5, 2007 Quote A license is not an award for macho. Aren't most licenses just that, at least indirectly? Drivers licenses give you the privledge to drive on public roads, but they also are a bit of a badge of honor for young drivers, no?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #246 April 5, 2007 Quote In Reply To A license is not an award for macho. Aren't most licenses just that, at least indirectly? Drivers licenses give you the privledge to drive on public roads, but they also are a bit of a badge of honor for young drivers, no? I agree with this statement, although I think it's missing a few aspects. "badge of Honor" is right, but also it's a strong statement that you are qualified to instruct others, and implies a more indepth knowledge of the BSR and FARs. We should EXPECT our instructors to know the ISP forward and backwards. We EXPECT our D-license holders to be able to hammer our cloud-clearance and visibility requirements. I think this is where we are getting ourselves into trouble in this thread. Who cares if you can land a screaming rocket at 50mph or even put it on a dime each time; You need to know your stuff and be able to prove it. As far as night jumps go - I never understood what the big deal was. You NEED to know your stuff to do a successful night jump. Seems like a good indicator to me.....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #247 April 5, 2007 QuoteAs far as night jumps go - I never understood what the big deal was. You NEED to know your stuff to do a successful night jump. Seems like a good indicator to me..... I guess I'd agree with that. I've done night jumps, camera jumps, wingsuit jumps, etc. Night jumps are, in my opinion, the most complex and difficult jumps I've done. If night jumps were just invented, I guarantee the USPA would require more than just a B-license to do them. I think the only way we "get away" with night jumps successfully so often is that we do them so seldom and under very supervised conditions. I guess even though they're not directly relevant, I'd like to know that every tandem instructor has been able to deal with the complexity of a couple night jumps. Then again, everybody with 50 jumps and a B-license SHOULD be able to safely conduct a night jump, right? Huge disconnect between what's required to do a night jump and what capabilities it might be used to prove a person has. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #248 April 5, 2007 Quote As far as night jumps go - I never understood what the big deal was. You NEED to know your stuff to do a successful night jump. Seems like a good indicator to me..... A lot of "D" license holders seem to be killing themselves (and others) under canopy these days. Did two night jumps help them to "know their stuff"? Apparently not! Wouldn't a CRW requirement or advanced canopy requirement be far more useful and relevant?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #249 April 5, 2007 QuoteQuote As far as night jumps go - I never understood what the big deal was. You NEED to know your stuff to do a successful night jump. Seems like a good indicator to me..... A lot of "D" license holders seem to be killing themselves (and others) under canopy these days. Did two night jumps help them to "know their stuff"? Apparently not! Wouldn't a CRW requirement or advanced canopy requirement be far more useful and relevant? So add them, but keep the night jumper req. As a jumper who plans still being in the sport 500 jumps I don't care how many trials you put into the license req. I am going to complete them all."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #250 April 5, 2007 QuoteSkydiving, before money and greed ruled it, consisted of a series of "trials" one had to complete in order to, so to speak, "join the club." Nick- Thanks for a very good explanation of the evolution of skydiving. These days, some students need to be made to "feel good about themselves", rather than muster up the internal motivation to succeed. People generally feel more value for something that they have to earn through some effort and hardship, rather than something that is just given to them. I think that the "dumbing-down" of skydiving has altered the cross-section of average jumpers today. I think that the good ones are as good as they ever were, but it's easier for those of below-agerage skill to get by. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites