0
Croc

Should D license requirements be changed?

Recommended Posts

Quote

You CONTINUE to make this an issue of manliness rather than relevance. A license is not an award for macho.



No Kallend. No matter how much you say something, it doesn't make it true.

I do not think its a matter of "manliness".

For the last time. I think the night jump requirement should STAY on the D-License because it demonstraits skill, knowlege, courage and with that comes experience, wisdom and, hopefully, the ability to exercise good judgement; to take previous experience and knowlege and apply it to new situations or circumstance and solve problems with confidence. If you want to equate that to manliness in some manner, I think you're wrong, but fine, just please stop posting to the board that you think I think its all about manliness.

Anyway, the USPA will keep the night jump requirement as part of the D-License or some day delete it... whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Skydiving, before money and greed ruled it, consisted of a series of "trials" one had to complete in order to, so to speak, "join the club."



Nick- Thanks for a very good explanation of the evolution of skydiving. These days, some students need to be made to "feel good about themselves", rather than muster up the internal motivation to succeed. People generally feel more value for something that they have to earn through some effort and hardship, rather than something that is just given to them. I think that the "dumbing-down" of skydiving has altered the cross-section of average jumpers today. I think that the good ones are as good as they ever were, but it's easier for those of below-average skill to get by.

Kevin





I read through the entire thread again and STILL can't figure out what the big deal is?!

Why it is that some don't want to do a night jump escapes me, they're fun ~ not hard....and with proper training (IMHO) are no more 'risky' than a multitude of other variables that can be thrown at a jumper on any given day during any given jump...safer perhaps because the jumper is prepared for the night jump.

What about water jumps?

They have a MUCH higher potential for risk than a night jump, but then again jumping 2 feet into swimming pool and having someone throw a canopy at you seems to meet the requirements these days, so maybe instead of an actual night jump the person can just wear some really dark goggles...:ph34r:

I guess Nick's eloquent explanation in regard to the evolution of skydiving somewhat DOES put it into perspective for me...

The sport HAS changed / evolved since 'we' came up...like everything else it had to in order to survive.

The 'customer' base had to be expanded I guess, so that we can enjoy the gear, planes and facilities we now do.

Money does indeed rule the sport as it does much of the things in our society....I understand, and it would be hypocritical of me to scorn that, having made a living through the sport for quite some time.

Call it a 'macho' thing, or a badge of honor...whatever, but I have to agree that performing these 'tests' does show a certain amount of real ability, of commitment to the sport.

Thorough training makes for a more 'complete' basic skydiver...

I see the qualifications as minimum requirements that should be expanded upon, not made even easier.

Reminds me of the guy last year that wanted to borrow a smoke bracket, so that he could do ONE smoke jump to satisfy the PRO requirements and get the rating...he didn't want any real training...to become a safe or 'complete' demo jumper, he just wanted to do one to satisfy the paperwork and get the patch so he could jump 'big' demos.

Told me he didn't 'need' training to rig and jump smoke, he wouldn't be 'really' doing it that often...:S

I see a bit of a parallel to that here.



Maybe we should change the license names instead of the requirements...:)

We could have both 'Sport Jumper' and a 'Skydiver' designations, and design suitable progression paths for each.

If you only see yourself jumping on calm sunny days into a landlocked drop-zone with acres of outs, proceed down that path.

If you want to know how to pack, spot, rig, teach, land exactly where you want to etc. proceed down the other.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>A lot of "D" license holders seem to be killing themselves (and others)
>under canopy these days. Did two night jumps help them to "know their
>stuff"? Apparently not! Wouldn't a CRW requirement or advanced canopy
>requirement be far more useful and relevant?

Why? What if you have a jumper who was planning to never swoop and land his Raven II straight in for the rest of his life - why should you force him to do something he doesn't want to do and has no bearing on his style of skydiving?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

If you want to know how to pack, spot, rig, teach, land exactly where you want to etc. proceed down the other.



airt... can I join y'all on that path? I'll buy beer! ;)



You bet! :)
It once was a well worn path, getting a little hard to find these days...but it's still there! B|

Just follow the trail of empty GREEN bottles, it's a few miles father down from where the Jello shots end! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[reply
It once was a well worn path, getting a little hard to find these days...but it's still there! B|

Just follow the trail of empty GREEN bottles, it's a few miles father down from where the Jello shots end! ;)



.....HEY I'M WAY DOWN HERE ! ! !


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>A lot of "D" license holders seem to be killing themselves (and others)
>under canopy these days. Did two night jumps help them to "know their
>stuff"? Apparently not! Wouldn't a CRW requirement or advanced canopy
>requirement be far more useful and relevant?

Why? What if you have a jumper who was planning to never swoop and land his Raven II straight in for the rest of his life - why should you force him to do something he doesn't want to do and has no bearing on his style of skydiving?



And this is different from requiring somebody to do night jumps that never plans to do night jumps because.........?????
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

>A lot of "D" license holders seem to be killing themselves (and others)
>under canopy these days. Did two night jumps help them to "know their
>stuff"? Apparently not! Wouldn't a CRW requirement or advanced canopy
>requirement be far more useful and relevant?

Why? What if you have a jumper who was planning to never swoop and land his Raven II straight in for the rest of his life - why should you force him to do something he doesn't want to do and has no bearing on his style of skydiving?



And this is different from requiring somebody to do night jumps that never plans to do night jumps because.........?????



W O O S H ! [:/]










~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>And this is different from requiring somebody to do night jumps that never
>plans to do night jumps because.........?????

It's not.

It's silly to require demonstration of canopy control skills of someone who will never need to know how to land a HP canopy in traffic.

It's silly to require demonstration of night jump skills of someone who will never need to know how to jump at night.

It's silly to require demonstration of style or RW skills of someone who will never need to know how to do RW or style.

It's silly to require demonstration of water-landing survival skills of someone who will never need to know how to land in the water.

BUT:

1) Skydivers often find themselves in the above situations even when they have not prepared for them. These skydivers are putting themselves and others at risk because they never got that training - which is why we put the requirements to demonstrate it in the licenses.

2) The D license indicates a level of expertise in the sport. A skydiver who cannot do anything but jump out of an airplane and open their parachute is not an expert. Hence, requiring jumpers to _demonstrate_ they are experts at several things is not unreasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

You CONTINUE to make this an issue of manliness rather than relevance. A license is not an award for macho.



No Kallend. No matter how much you say something, it doesn't make it true.

I do not think its a matter of "manliness".

.



I suppose you didn't write:

"Yes, I am paying attention to the thread and for what its worth, my 2 cents, its clear to me you and others like you would like to have the night jump requirement removed from the D-License because you're "not up to it". There, I said it."

and

"I think the night jump requirement should STAY on the D-License because it demonstraits ... courage "


Someone must have been posting under your name;)
"
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you want to know how to pack, spot, rig, teach, land exactly where you want to etc. proceed down the other.



I'd like to subscribe to your newletter.....

Nice path, wannanother beer on the way?


I see no issues, if you don't want to do the night jumps, be happy with your C (Expert) license and authorize demo and teaching privileges accordingly. One can do plenty on that license.

The D (Master) should require more in depth knowledge and allow more responsibilty.

In fact, I'd like to see additional reqs on the D license - including some proficiency in freeflying, CrW, higher performance canopy flight in addition to accuracy, more advanced RW skills (mantis-based flying), gear knowledge, more in depth safety and FAR review, freefall drift and spotting knowledge in more depth.

The original D requirements are very outdated, there is more to the sport to be calling oneself a master skydiver that new people should be able to go to and expect responsible and informed advice.

I mean really, can you really call yourself a "Master" skydiver and not at least be able to handle the basics of gear, canopy flight, more than 2 or 3 disciplines, and understanding exit order? I know tons of "D" license owners that do a single discipline, have no clue about freefall drift, that never pack their own rig (nor should) and has never touched another canopy in thousands of jumps, that can't perform a tight center point turn...... They are great at their thing, don't get me wrong, but the basics are still lost on them.

The license really does need to differentiate the 'sport jumper' from the 'skydiver' - great idea

Today, the D license is pretty well about jump numbers and a skill level that is next to nothing with the knowledge today. The intent was (should be) at least three fold:

skill - basic skills in freeflying and advanced belly, CrW and swooping basics, etc

safety - exit order (and why), basic gear knowledge for checks, traffic issues, etc

knowledge - FARs, teaching, BSRs, coaching, etc


as far as ego? call the skydiver the "Matilda" license for all I care. I just want to know who to trust to set exit order, or mentor someone new or who I can take on a hybrid dive and won't wig out, or knows WHY the RSL is routed this way and not that way (except on Sunpath rigs, that's already covered), etc...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

...

W O O S H !




:D:D:D
The Whoosh is on you.
:D:D:D

Try thinking "UNintentional" vs "intentional".

It's hilarious how so many anti-change responses are completely missing the point of it all. Airtwardo maybe has hit on a good idea in name changes, I prefer the idea of endorsements.

Wanna do night jumps? Get the training and the NJ endorsement attached to your license whatever it is.
Wanna do smoke jumps? Get the training and the SJ endorsement attached to your license whatever it is.
Wanna do Demos? Get the training and the DE endorsement attached to your license whatever it is.
Wanna do Deep Water jumps? Get the training and the DW endorsement attached to your license whatever it is.
etc., etc., etc.

Somebody used the driving analogy.
So you get a driver's license. All's well and good so far.
Now you want to go racing F1 or NASCAR.
Guess what, you will need to get a racing license for the big boys racing.
Using your thought process, everyone should be required to get a racing license just to drive on the street.
:S:S:S


The following paragraph is going to tweak noses and put many people on the defensive.

For you ego-driven people, the endorsement should provide all the gratification you need to show that you are indeed a big boy.


And yes, Ziggy, your responses reek of "macho". Using words like "pussy" reflect that undeniable fact. You are assuming fear is a driving factor behind all of this night jump discussion. Laughingly wrong, dude.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>And this is different from requiring somebody to do night jumps that never
>plans to do night jumps because.........?????

It's not.

It's silly to require demonstration of canopy control skills of someone who will never need to know how to land a HP canopy in traffic.

It's silly to require demonstration of night jump skills of someone who will never need to know how to jump at night.

It's silly to require demonstration of style or RW skills of someone who will never need to know how to do RW or style.

It's silly to require demonstration of water-landing survival skills of someone who will never need to know how to land in the water.

BUT:

1) Skydivers often find themselves in the above situations even when they have not prepared for them. These skydivers are putting themselves and others at risk because they never got that training - which is why we put the requirements to demonstrate it in the licenses.

2) The D license indicates a level of expertise in the sport. A skydiver who cannot do anything but jump out of an airplane and open their parachute is not an expert. Hence, requiring jumpers to _demonstrate_ they are experts at several things is not unreasonable.



Ok, so there is a miniscule chance that somebody might need to conduct an unintentional night jump. Our current standards say the B license skydivers are authorized to conduct intentional night jumps anyway. On every single jump a jumper is required to fly and land his/her parachute. So how is requiring 2 night jumps, as opposed to say completion of a canopy control course, more relevant for demonstrating competence and skill?

Don't get me wrong here. I've done plenty of night jumps. I enjoy them. I really don't care if they stay part of the requirement for a D or not. I will do plenty more of them I'm sure. I'm just not buying your argument for why they SHOULD be required. On the other hand, I'm not in favor of lowering standards either, the whole give an inch take a mile thing.

I really feel that the only reason they are there is a sort of "rite of passage". Keep in mind, that these two night jumps don't need to be successful. A jumper can make one night jump, funnel a formation, collide with someone in freefall, land off, break both his legs, then six months later after recovery do the same thing with the same result and, there you have it, got the two night jumps required for a D license. Perhaps we should specify conditions of success for night jumps if it's going to be a worthwhile requirement. Otherwise it is only the "rite of passage."

I'm actually in favor of increasing requirements for the very reason you state, to demonstrate competence and skill. I wish I had been required to take a canopy control course as one of the license requirements. I wish that there were oral/written quizes on gear knowledge as a license requirement (you know there are many D license holders that don't know crap about their very own gear). In short, I'm in favor of demonstrating competence, I just don't buy your particular argument that "skydivers might find themselves in this position so it should be necessary."

I guess I'm kind of playing Devils' Advocate here.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


1) Skydivers often find themselves in the above situations even when they have not prepared for them. These skydivers are putting themselves and others at risk because they never got that training - which is why we put the requirements to demonstrate it in the licenses.


For general skydiving you are absolutely correct. However, this statement has nothing to do with doing night jumps (which, BTW, is the focus of this discussion) or other "specialized" jumps such as smoke, banners, deep water, etc.

Quote


2) The D license indicates a level of expertise in the sport. A skydiver who cannot do anything but jump out of an airplane and open their parachute is not an expert.


A D-license holder is not an expert because he holds the license either. It only means that he met the minimum today's requirements.

Quote


Hence, requiring jumpers to _demonstrate_ they are experts at several things is not unreasonable.


Totally agreed across the board. But again, this misses the entire point of the discussion.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

...

For you ego-driven people, the endorsement should provide all the gratification you need to show that you are indeed a big boy.




Awright.....I admit it. I am ego driven, macho and try to be manly at times, but....I dont need all those endorsements. I just followed the requirements and got my D. Very. very simple.

Good luck on your quest Pop.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


The D (Master) should require more in depth knowledge and allow more responsibilty.

In fact, I'd like to see additional reqs on the D license - including some proficiency in freeflying, CrW, higher performance canopy flight in addition to accuracy, more advanced RW skills (mantis-based flying), gear knowledge, more in depth safety and FAR review, freefall drift and spotting knowledge in more depth.

Today, the D license is pretty well about jump numbers and a skill level that is next to nothing with the knowledge today. The intent was (should be) at least three fold:

skill - basic skills in freeflying and advanced belly, CrW and swooping basics, etc

safety - exit order (and why), basic gear knowledge for checks, traffic issues, etc

knowledge - FARs, teaching, BSRs, coaching, etc



I agree totally that one should have knowledge of all these things, BUT most of what you have listed should be demonstrated WELL before someone is applying for a D license.

The extraneous things such as swooping knowledge and CRW skills should not be put off until a D license either. What is it that is keeping a B license holder from trying their hand at swooping? Nothing! Are you saying that in this case a person would have to wait until they have the required 500 jumps to be able to swoop. Therein lies a problem. How would you test them to see if they have the ability to swoop if they are not permitted to swoop unless they have the appropriate license.

This is just an isolated example where I am trying to make a point that there are far too many skill sets in this sport that some would say need to be regulated in the sport by a license, but it is almost impossible to do. Some of these skills are by far the most dangerous and you don't need any type of license to attempt.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


....and with proper training (IMHO) are no more 'risky' than a multitude of other variables that can be thrown at a jumper on any given day during any given jump...safer perhaps because the jumper is prepared for the night jump.



***

And that ladies & gentlemen is WHY it's there, it prepares you in a small way, to deal with the unexpected and / or unfamiliar variable.

Takes you out of your self imposed comfort zone in a way that won't get you dead...


...MAKES you grow as a skydiver.

Don't be afraid of the dark, it's the same as during the day...only darker! :P










The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>However, this statement has nothing to do with doing night jumps . . .

Is it your contention that skydivers never find themselves on after-sunset jumps (sometimes well after sunset) despite planning to not do so? If so, then I can see your point. I disagree with your contention, though.

>A D-license holder is not an expert because he holds the license
>either. It only means that he met the minimum today's requirements.

A D-license holder may not be an expert by your standards, but has demonstrated he is more of an expert than an A-license holder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Is it your contention that skydivers never find themselves on after-sunset jumps (sometimes well after sunset) despite planning to not do so? If so, then I can see your point. I disagree with your contention, though.



They sure do. And if your contention is that this is what we're preparing them for by doing night jumps, then why, when these jumpers do find themselves on a jump after sunset, do we NOT count those as night jumps toward the requirement?
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>then why, when these jumpers do find themselves on a jump after
>sunset, do we NOT count those as night jumps toward the requirement?

I'd think that if:

1) the jump was well after sunset (i.e. dark) and
2) the jumper got the appropriate training

then they SHOULD be counted. I'd be for changing the SIM to accommodate that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Is it your contention that skydivers never find themselves on after-sunset jumps (sometimes well after sunset) despite planning to not do so? If so, then I can see your point. I disagree with your contention, though.


No, not my contention at all but since you bring it up, "find(ing) themselves on after-sunset jumps (sometimes well after sunset) despite planning to not do so" and intentionally jumping at that point is two entirely different things. You want to go up and jump into the pitch dark night without proper training? Good luck to all those that do so. Even the A- holders out there who would find themselves in that situation.

Quote

A D-license holder may not be an expert by your standards, but has demonstrated he is more of an expert than an A-license holder.


Totally agreed, but again, missing the point.

Nobody is arguing against taking night jump training out of the picture.
Nobody is arguing against taking ANY training out of the picture.
(In MY viewpoint, not enough training gets done. AND that some of the current training gets done at the wrong time.)
Nobody is arguing against preparing for more advanced ratings.

I am saying that the night jump training should be put in its proper place.
You can do B-, C-, D-level, Demo and Pro jumps all day long. Nobody is putting a gun to your head to do one at night. You want to do night jumps? Do the training (no matter how piss-poor it is right now) and THEN do it. Making it a REQUIREMENT for obtaining ANY advanced license/rating is out of line.

It's really simple guys. Not rocket science and certainly not an issue that needs all the emotional responses we've been getting.

I've made the question as easy-to-understand as possible.

It would be a proud moment for nearly anyone to have ANY license with the night jump endorsement attached.

For current D-license holders:
You have a D.
Your buddy has a D.
You both can do any D-level jump.
Ahhhh...but there's a difference - YOU have the Night Jump endorsement and he doesn't. WooooHoooo!
Guess who gets to go on the night-time demo?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Maybe we should change the license names instead of the requirements...:)

We could have both 'Sport Jumper' and a 'Skydiver' designations, and design suitable progression paths for each.

If you only see yourself jumping on calm sunny days into a landlocked drop-zone with acres of outs, proceed down that path.

If you want to know how to pack, spot, rig, teach, land exactly where you want to etc. proceed down the other.



Sign me up! I'm a new jumper but my intentions it to learn as much as I can from as many people as possible and be self reliant. Maybe it my time in the military but I feel some times the old ways are best for a reason.

Too many people want instant gratification with as little effort as possible. I look forward to doing water and night jumps it’s yet another aspect where I get to push my self. I’ve talked to my instructor and others that have jump for a long time and listened to how they described what they went through to get each of their certification and I look at some of the requirements of it now days and I feel a little cheated. I want to have pride in earning each level as I progress.

How would you feel that after a week at a new job you are brought out in front of every one and given award for your all your hard work? What would that award mean to you? And what would it mean to the others that work with you? I can see exactly how some of the old time jumpers are feeling. We have a whole generation of people looking to get ahead the easy way and changes in this sport are just a reflection of that and society in general.

There is all this talk on retention in this sport and to make it easier for up jumpers to achieve licenses. I think airtwardo hit the nail on the head with this one. Let those who want to just fun jump and enjoy their time in the sport have a path and those who want something more out of this sport have another. I know which route would give ME satification as for other that would be their choice.
SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0