DougH 270 #301 April 6, 2007 Where is the endorsement for bullshit. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #302 April 6, 2007 QuoteLooks like you mixed everything together. I can understand gear, freefall drift and spotting knowledge, as this is what jumper and others safety is based on. I can understand some proficiency in CRW, as unintentional CRW might happen without your wish. I see no reason to show some proficiency in both freeflying, advanced RW, swooping and high-performance canopies. How would it benefit the person only flies wingsuits, and does not care about RW, freefly or swoops? How useful is high-performance canopy for pilots who are not going to downsize - is it possible that after pull you instantly find yourself under Katana 120 instead of Spectre 210? So your 'master skydiver' would know a little of every discipline. What's "master" in it? Yep - everything you take exception to can be done by a C-license holder. There is no shame in a C license, I don't see the big deal. Understand that the D-license was originally defined to sort out those that would continue on to an instructor status. It was NOT just another checkpoint in progression (actually it was, but that was because everyone that stuck through over a 100 jumps usually was on goal to Instructor) I do think an instructor of any kind should have a very broad based set of skills, knowledge and safety practices. It's pretty easy to see in this thread the sport jumpers and big DZ weekend types from the old timers that were around when a license actually was useful in telling who was able to do what..... Twardo - some actually tried to tip you for showing them how to use a fid? (problem, I can name 5 DZ.commers right now that would insist on being tipped for doing just that) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #303 April 6, 2007 my fingers got tired from typing but i'm sure we could add - so here it is bs 3-2-2007 #1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #304 April 6, 2007 Quote my fingers got tired from typing but i'm sure we could add - so here it is bs 3-2-2007 #1 "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #305 April 6, 2007 QuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #306 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago. Owch, mine says "Expert". It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #307 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago. Mine says "Expert". bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #308 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago. Mine says "Expert". We KNOW you're an old fart.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #309 April 6, 2007 Quote Mine says "Expert". Mine says D G I T ..... HEY, that's not funny! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #310 April 6, 2007 Damn I gave away my age!?! I am running a Mil Tandem Course and showed my license card and a newer fellow asked what the hell it was. But I can only remember Presidents back to Carter. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #311 April 6, 2007 My "D" License used to say "Master Parachutist." Then it said "Expert Parachutist." And now it doesn't say anything . . . At least my old "C" license had my picture on it! And I remember Eisenhower . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #312 April 6, 2007 Quote so does that mean our new uspa card will look like this D-18925 - nj 3-2-2007 #20001 - cp 3-2-2007 - fs 3-2-2007 #18295 - crw 3-2-2007 #25555 - wj 3-2-2007 #32547 - vrw 3-2-2007 #17525 - bw 3-2-2007 #10255 - bm 3-2-2007 #15266 ect ect ect ..... sounds confusing to me WoW! You're mind works in complicated ways...are you a Math major? No different than what you already have with the two-letter codes listed on the back under the ratings or special achievement sections.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #313 April 6, 2007 Quote It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Few people like change...especially the old farts. They are off an a tangent thinking that ANY change will detract from the recognition they deserve for their accomlishments... and can't understand that the requirements for demonstrated skills remains. The only change suggested is the element of choice on what skills you want to demonstrate and when. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #314 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuote It's pretty easy to see in this thread the sport jumpers and big DZ weekend types from the old timers that were around when a license actually was useful in telling who was able to do what..... A license is supposed to tell you who is ALLOWED to do what. I don't think a "D" ever told you much about who WAS ABLE do what. Did it tell you how many 4-way points you could expect to do in time? No. Did it tell you who would die from a no- or low-pull? No. Did it tell you who could complete a 10-way speed star in under 15 seconds? No. Did it tell you who could do a night jump without breaking an ankle? No (success was never part of the night requirement). Did it tell you who you could trust to track away properly on a big-way? No.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #315 April 6, 2007 Quote just curious, if night jumps are so godawful dangerous and complicated then why are we allowed to do them with a B license? They are not dangerous nor complicated. They are just more difficult than daytime jumps.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #316 April 6, 2007 Quote i knew a jumper that grabbed the wrong rig and got a big suprise or should i say small surprize - found 50 sq ft less than he was expecting I know a jumper (in miliraty) who jumped with a dummy reserve for a WEEK(!). This is not safety concern. This is stupidity concern.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #317 April 6, 2007 Quote Yep - everything you take exception to can be done by a C-license holder. There is no shame in a C license, I don't see the big deal. The problem here is that you make "Master skydiver" as "someone who tried every discipline a little", there is no value of such a license. A "master skydiver" who can sitfly a little (and learned it just to get a rating) is still not safe to freefly with. Not to mention including every discipline is very broad - how about 2-3 hours of tunnel time requirement? This is useful experience as well. How about some BASE jumps? How about wingsuit aerobatics, rodeo? How about landing in the forest? But if you make "Master skydiver" as "someone who is expert in ALL the existing disciplines", I doubt we would ever find the one. Quote Understand that the D-license was originally defined to sort out those that would continue on to an instructor status. It was NOT just another checkpoint in progression (actually it was, but that was because everyone that stuck through over a 100 jumps usually was on goal to Instructor) If we take a "knows everything a little" approach, in my opinion it would mean almost nothing useful for his instructor status. If the instructor wants to teach RW, he'd better spend more time on RW skills instead of trying freeflying, wingsuits and swooping he just need to get a rating.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bozo 0 #318 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuote It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Few people like change...especially the old farts. It seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. I hate old farts that wont change their minds. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fastphil 0 #319 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Few people like change...especially the old farts. It seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. I hate old farts that wont change their minds. Yep, and many of the old farts are the ones that changed the sport into what it is today... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ROK 0 #320 April 6, 2007 This entire argument is academic. If you look at the definition of what a license is, Kallend is correct. It's been said by several that the only thing a D license gets you is the opportunity to obtain several instructor endorsements. In my opinion, If someone wishes to be an instructor, they need night jump training. If you don't plan to be an instructor, why get your D? Why should I have had to take water training? What if I can't swim? I may not ever plan to jump around water? However, I did go up on a sunset load one time, flew around waiting for some clouds, and it was DARK as hell when I landed... I do believe that a canopy control "camp" should be mandatory, and you should have to get an endorsement before exceeding a certain wing loading, or downsizing below a certain canopy size. I'm with Doug. If it becomes a requirement to stand on my hands naked on top of the hanger until pigeons roost on my ass to get my D, I'll do it...I'm goal driven Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SansSuit 1 #321 April 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago. OK, anybody have an idea what year these titles were eliminated?Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #322 April 7, 2007 Quote Why should I have had to take water training? What if I can't swim? I may not ever plan to jump around water? However, I did go up on a sunset load one time, flew around waiting for some clouds, and it was DARK as hell when I landed... Was a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #323 April 7, 2007 Quote Was a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion. Unless of course, he really CAN'T swim! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #324 April 7, 2007 QuoteWas a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion. I think putting the night jump requirement on the D-license ensures that most jumpers that stick with the sport a long time will, at some point, make a couple night jumps under controlled conditions. You could ensure that more people had done that by putting night jumps under the C license requirements... That would actually have kept things the same when they bumped the C and D license jump requirements. Getting the D, a goal I bet most skydivers have (or had), shows that they've gone through all the education that the USPA recommends for all jumpers, including jumping at night. I totally agree that more should be required, like canopy training... but I'd say that there should be a set of canopy training requirements associated with each license. USPA would have to come up with a curriculum and rating system for that though. You go under the assumption that the word license has a particular definition. I doubt the USPA or whatever they were called when they handed out the first license, consulted websters dictionary to make sure they were giving it a correct name. The FAA gives our certificates. If the USPA started calling them that, would it be ok to leave in a night jump requirement? I don't think night jumps are useless. I think we learn a lot from them... And I like knowing that anybody with a D-license has definitely been through that. In a way, it proves a person's ability to cope with less than optimal conditions just like the accuracy requirements for the previous licenses prove a person's ability to land their parachute accurately. Complete proof? Nope, they might have totally freaked out and pulled every wrong handle and survived by a miracle. But just like survivng to 500 jumps proves SOMETHING, so does making two night jumps. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #325 April 7, 2007 QuoteIt seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. It's pleasing that you are able to observe the obvious. QuoteI hate old farts that wont change their minds. Damn! It's hard to change something you know you are going to lose anyway in the not-too-distant future! Besides, the mind is the second thing to go, eh? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Next Page 13 of 17 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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georgerussia 0 #315 April 6, 2007 Quote just curious, if night jumps are so godawful dangerous and complicated then why are we allowed to do them with a B license? They are not dangerous nor complicated. They are just more difficult than daytime jumps.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #316 April 6, 2007 Quote i knew a jumper that grabbed the wrong rig and got a big suprise or should i say small surprize - found 50 sq ft less than he was expecting I know a jumper (in miliraty) who jumped with a dummy reserve for a WEEK(!). This is not safety concern. This is stupidity concern.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #317 April 6, 2007 Quote Yep - everything you take exception to can be done by a C-license holder. There is no shame in a C license, I don't see the big deal. The problem here is that you make "Master skydiver" as "someone who tried every discipline a little", there is no value of such a license. A "master skydiver" who can sitfly a little (and learned it just to get a rating) is still not safe to freefly with. Not to mention including every discipline is very broad - how about 2-3 hours of tunnel time requirement? This is useful experience as well. How about some BASE jumps? How about wingsuit aerobatics, rodeo? How about landing in the forest? But if you make "Master skydiver" as "someone who is expert in ALL the existing disciplines", I doubt we would ever find the one. Quote Understand that the D-license was originally defined to sort out those that would continue on to an instructor status. It was NOT just another checkpoint in progression (actually it was, but that was because everyone that stuck through over a 100 jumps usually was on goal to Instructor) If we take a "knows everything a little" approach, in my opinion it would mean almost nothing useful for his instructor status. If the instructor wants to teach RW, he'd better spend more time on RW skills instead of trying freeflying, wingsuits and swooping he just need to get a rating.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #318 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuote It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Few people like change...especially the old farts. It seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. I hate old farts that wont change their minds. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #319 April 6, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote It is surprising to me, all the strong feelings over night jumps... Few people like change...especially the old farts. It seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. I hate old farts that wont change their minds. Yep, and many of the old farts are the ones that changed the sport into what it is today... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ROK 0 #320 April 6, 2007 This entire argument is academic. If you look at the definition of what a license is, Kallend is correct. It's been said by several that the only thing a D license gets you is the opportunity to obtain several instructor endorsements. In my opinion, If someone wishes to be an instructor, they need night jump training. If you don't plan to be an instructor, why get your D? Why should I have had to take water training? What if I can't swim? I may not ever plan to jump around water? However, I did go up on a sunset load one time, flew around waiting for some clouds, and it was DARK as hell when I landed... I do believe that a canopy control "camp" should be mandatory, and you should have to get an endorsement before exceeding a certain wing loading, or downsizing below a certain canopy size. I'm with Doug. If it becomes a requirement to stand on my hands naked on top of the hanger until pigeons roost on my ass to get my D, I'll do it...I'm goal driven Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #321 April 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteMine actually says "Master" on it. Matt Old fart! Those titles went out years ago. OK, anybody have an idea what year these titles were eliminated?Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #322 April 7, 2007 Quote Why should I have had to take water training? What if I can't swim? I may not ever plan to jump around water? However, I did go up on a sunset load one time, flew around waiting for some clouds, and it was DARK as hell when I landed... Was a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #323 April 7, 2007 Quote Was a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion. Unless of course, he really CAN'T swim! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #324 April 7, 2007 QuoteWas a "D" a requirement to be allowed to manifest on that sunset load? If not, your experience is not relevant to the discussion. I think putting the night jump requirement on the D-license ensures that most jumpers that stick with the sport a long time will, at some point, make a couple night jumps under controlled conditions. You could ensure that more people had done that by putting night jumps under the C license requirements... That would actually have kept things the same when they bumped the C and D license jump requirements. Getting the D, a goal I bet most skydivers have (or had), shows that they've gone through all the education that the USPA recommends for all jumpers, including jumping at night. I totally agree that more should be required, like canopy training... but I'd say that there should be a set of canopy training requirements associated with each license. USPA would have to come up with a curriculum and rating system for that though. You go under the assumption that the word license has a particular definition. I doubt the USPA or whatever they were called when they handed out the first license, consulted websters dictionary to make sure they were giving it a correct name. The FAA gives our certificates. If the USPA started calling them that, would it be ok to leave in a night jump requirement? I don't think night jumps are useless. I think we learn a lot from them... And I like knowing that anybody with a D-license has definitely been through that. In a way, it proves a person's ability to cope with less than optimal conditions just like the accuracy requirements for the previous licenses prove a person's ability to land their parachute accurately. Complete proof? Nope, they might have totally freaked out and pulled every wrong handle and survived by a miracle. But just like survivng to 500 jumps proves SOMETHING, so does making two night jumps. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #325 April 7, 2007 QuoteIt seems to me that you and Professor Kallend are among the forsaid few. It's pleasing that you are able to observe the obvious. QuoteI hate old farts that wont change their minds. Damn! It's hard to change something you know you are going to lose anyway in the not-too-distant future! Besides, the mind is the second thing to go, eh? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
