safety in the UK /US

[moth 0]

i was having a chat at the weekend to a friend who has just got back from the U.S (we are in the UK). and he was saying how slow it is in the UK compared to overseas DZs in general and how anal we are in the UK about gearcheaks and saftey in general. now i have never jumped abroad so i dont know but is the uk a safer place to jump than elsewhere because of this (like how many fatalities/ injuries are there per jump made in the UK/ US ) or is it justa load of bollocks.

[jakee 1,263]

We definitely have more safety regulations than some other countries, the mandatory flight line checks, FS1/FF1 type qualifications for example. I don't know if this makes us any safer but it does mean low time skydivers are often restricted in what jumps they can do.

Also UK DZ's can sometimes be frustratingly slow at turning lifts around.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tdog 0]

Very good question...

Made me think...

Someone should run some stats to see if all the extra procedures the UK actually reduces injury/fatality rates... If so, perhaps we in the US should adopt those things that increase safety...

[Buried 0]

it would be hard to compare too since i'm sure those people in the US may perform more jumps per jumper, the jumpers out number those in the UK by quite a bit and also more than likely have more out of country visitors

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[riggerrob 561]

Quote

Very good question...

Made me think...

Someone should run some stats to see if all the extra procedures the UK actually reduces injury/fatality rates... If so, perhaps we in the US should adopt those things that increase safety...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Having done a hundred "flight line checks" - in a day - at a BPA-style DZ, I am not convinced that the British system is better.
By the end of the day, the senior instructor's eyes are rolling back in his head, and he has to remind himself to focus on details.
It is too easy to "see what you expect to see."

More bureaucratic.
More expensive.
Slower.
But I am not convinced that the British system is better.
Sometimes you are so busy/bogged down filling out paper work, that you lose track of the original goal: getting skydivers into the air.

I prefer that casual North American approach, with everyone casually keeping an eye on each other.

"Oww! Honest miss, I was just checking your chest strap buckle."

[cabbage 0]

Riggerrob,

I may have missunderstood your post but there's no requirement for a flight line check to be done by the CCI in the UK. As long as the person checking has the relevant licence and has been cleared for flight line checks it's a Buddy Check.

I think the system has a few advantages not just the obvious one. It encourages new jumpers to learn about their gear and promotes an attitude where we look after one another.

I'm not always in favour of BPA directives but I like this one.

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We're a' just machines for makin' shite.

[Yossarian 0]

its not only the senior instructor that does flight line checks, anyone with JM1 can do it so people usually just pair up, that parts no slower than casual checking and makes me feel alot safer, and making people feel safe is very important as far as enjoying the jump goes. ive only ever been at a dz in the uk once where there have been enough people manifested to do a speedy back-up load, and the only paper work that has to be done during the jumping day is signing off the aircraft manifest which is a legal requirement anyway and not specific to skydiving. i also think the FS1/FF1/FF2 system is very important, as a very recently qualified FS1 it scares me to be alone in the sky with those who are newly licensed when i see them tearing about the sky without any realisation they are doing it, it seems even more important for freefly because a bad sit can very easily be an unwitting backtrack. id much rather do it the british way, and when i jump abroad i insist someone gives me a proper check before i get on the aircraft, or im not getting on

[tombuch 0]

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Sometimes you are so busy/bogged down filling out paper work, that you lose track of the original goal: getting skydivers into the air.

Original goal: Getting skydivers in the air at a reasonable level of risk.

.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[GravityGirl 0]

Since most of your skydivers go uncurrent every year due to weather, I would expect that more checks and balances are a good thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[pjc 0]

If its any consolation, at least we (UK) don't have to go through pages & pages & pages of disclaimers every time we turn up at a new dz to jump. Last time I was in the US I was told that one large dz actually videos you watching a safety video and signing all the disclaimers to prove it was actually you that signed I hope it doesn't get that way over here!!! I do feel though that if we want to check our own gear then we should be able to! Rather than having to have someone you may not even know jiggle your pins about, pulling your bridle out then slapping you on the back while asking where your hook knife is!!

[andybr6 0]

I agree about the progression system, I obtained FS1 before getting FF1 quite recently. I can really see the benefit of some flat flying to teach the survival skills like tracking and getting used to seeing somone else in the sky who isn't an instuctor [besides which WARP is great fun and not as lonely as learning to freefly]. However the flight line checks should not, IMHO, be relied upon. I have very few jumps but I still think that I am responsible for my own safety and my own gear. I believe that you should treat the flightline check as a legal formality and make sure that you have checked everything personally, I would not rely on anybody to see something that I have missed. In my opinion based on my limited experience I would think of a flightline check as an AAD, its a great back up and you may chose not to jump without one but you should not rely on it to save your life!

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Yossarian 0]

that most of us go uncurrent over the winter is one hell of an assumption and i should think unfounded aswell, i dont know of any, we brave the cold and sitting for a few days in the hanger watching videos but everyone ive ever known either jumps during the winter (albeit wearing more clothes) or goes abroad.

the flightline check should never replace checking things yourself but just like i wouldnt jump without an aad i wouldnt get on the plane without a flightline check and i see no argument against them

[Dazzle 0]

The flight line check should be a back up to checking yourself out, I no way relied upon someone else.

If someone catches you at a flight line check with a problem then you should worry that you are not doing so for youself.

A couple of years ago I caught a very experienced jumper with a miss routed 3 ring. Last year I caught myself with a (differently) misrouted 3 ring. The best thing that I can say about it was that I caught it myself - it should never have happened - but before you offer yourself for checking you should have checked yourself.

[Remster 24]

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we brave the cold and sitting for a few days in the hanger watching videos but everyone ive ever known either jumps during the winter (albeit wearing more clothes) or goes abroad.

No offence, but you obvioulsy dont know that many jumpers.

And yes, I lived and jumped in th UK.

Remster

[Yossarian 0]

depends on definition of remaining current i suppose, and im only from a small dz but the people there seem fairly committed

[billvon 2,447]

>that most of us go uncurrent over the winter is one hell of an
> assumption and i should think unfounded aswell,

Hey, no need to get defensive. It happens here too in colder climates. I was lucky to be able to jump once during the winter in NY.

[GravityGirl 0]

Didn't mean to come across as assumptive. I was just basing that on the UK jumpers that I know.

Many travel during the winter, but many have real jobs and take a few months out in the winter.

I'm sure you are a VERY commited bunch to brave the year 'round climate over there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Very good question...

Made me think...

Someone should run some stats to see if all the extra procedures the UK actually reduces injury/fatality rates... If so, perhaps we in the US should adopt those things that increase safety...

The problem with this is that the BPA keep (in their oh so British way) excellent stats on everything. Getting comparable stats from other parts of the world to compare them with is not usually an easy task. I have a DZ that trains British soldiers under BPA standards (the one that Riggerrob was mercilessly forced to flightline check 100 plus students/day) and it becomes apparent when we try to suggest changes such as throw outs for students that we need to come up with stats that are essentially unaquirable in the private world of North American DZs.

[mr2mk1g 10]

There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts on here urging people to gear check one another in the US. In the UK it's mandatory and everyone gets a gear check every jump. I'm not saying it catches everything or is perfect by any means but it certainly means we never have to wonder if that bag falling out on the step would have been caught if only he'd had a gear check on the flight line.

Another thing I think we benefit from is the Jump Master. It's a jumper, just an ordinary up-jumper, who is in charge of the load. It's their JOB to spot the load and check for traffic. I know everyone has to spot themselves and personal responsibility etc etc - but every load is always spotted and every load always has its airspace checked by someone who's virtual sole purpose is to do so. It doesn't and can't solve everything and certainly doesn't eliminate personal responsibility... but how many loads in the US go without ANYONE so much as glancing out of the door?

It's also the JM's job to ensure that high pullers are at the back, big way FS at the front etc etc and that an appropriate exit separation is used. It means there's no climbing over people in the plane at 10k and no watching a solo 30 jump wonder unexpectedly exit in a sit in front of your 4-way. Not perfect for sure, but the system does FORCE everyone to have that conversation about what they're planning on doing before they even get on the plane. I found it very odd to be sat in a plane in the US with 75 jumps trying to ask people over the noise what they were doing so we could sort out the exit order. If found it even stranger that I seemed to be the only person on board who actually gave a damn.

How many posts are there on here urging people to use an appropriate exit separation? How many would there be if there was a JM knelt in the door preventing you from exiting until he had judged the appropriate separation irrespective of whatever count you were planning on using?

Nothing's perfect by any means, but these two systems mean people HAVE TO talk about what they're doing and HAVE TO look at each others gear. EVERY load is spotted and EVERY group has an order and minimum exit separation.

Nothing can eliminate personal responsibility but systems like these can help preserve group safety even when individuals don't.

[skykittykat 0]

In a perfect world, I think both the US and the UK can learn from each other and implement/take away certain rules.

Somehow I don't think that is going to happen

Liz

[stefd 0]

I think gear checks are important, evrybody is human ( i think ) and people do make mistakes, so a second pair of eyes to give you a look over before you leave for the aircraft is good. I was jumping at a dz in Spain last summer and an instructor came running past myself and the dz controller to catch a lift that was just about to leave, the dz controller shouted him back and during packing he had left his pullthrough in the closing loop with the pin through it. Had that been in the uk it would have been picked up straight away.

[Samurai136 0]

It sounds like it was caught straight away in Spain, too.

The difference is that the UK BPA feels the need to formalize saftey rules. In the US it only takes one person in the flight line to request a gear check and soon enough everyone is checking their gear and talking about safety.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[damion75 0]

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It sounds like it was caught straight away in Spain, too.

The difference is that the UK BPA feels the need to formalize saftey rules. In the US it only takes one person in the flight line to request a gear check and soon enough everyone is checking their gear and talking about safety.

Actually it sounds like it was caught oretty late in Spain! Almost last chance...

I agree that not everything that the BPA puts in place is necessary, but the flightline checks seem like a no-brainer to me. No they don't always get done perfectly and sometimes people do treat them as a formailty, but that can normally be sorted with a quick word. When done properly they can save embarrasment, mals and even lives.

Having a formal JM also seems pretty sensible to me. As Mk2mg1 says, there is a lot of talk on here about separation and jump order, and very little of it seems to be put into practice in the US, particularly on boogies and so forth when most people don't know each other and are too shy to discuss it! Why leave these things to chance?

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[skytash 0]

in response to the comment around becoming uncurrent, I really like the idea of a Safety Day at the beginning of the season, which I know lots of DZs in the more northern parts of North America do, not sure whether it's a requirement or not - it is something I'd be interested in seeing at some UK DZs!

tash

edited to add: some people in the UK remain current over the cold season, others don't. I've been and seen both over the years.

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[cpoxon 0]

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it is something I'd be interested in seeing at some UK DZs

Chatteris had one just recently

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live