Diatribe

[sundevil777 93]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

I don't know that my mother was racist, but my old man would talk, and talk, and talk, about how he was not racist. But all someone needed to do was bring up the topic of inter-racial marriage, and ranting would begin. e.g.

"They aren't thinking of the children! They won't be accepted by either side!"

I would have liked to point out to him that perhaps "either side" wasn't as racist as himself, but didn't dare, because that would have guaranteed yet another beating for me.

If a black person thinks the same thing, that the children won't be accepted by either side, are they racist?

[sundevil777 93]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:19 PM, wmw999 said:

Seems like

Is it possible that your hatred for Trump has biased how things "seem"?

Edited August 20, 2019 by sundevil777

[yobnoc 142]

2 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Is it possible that your hatred for Trump has biased how things "seem"?

If someone beats his wife, is it biased to then call him a wife beater? 

 

Similarly, when Trump is who he is, and lies like he lies, and (allegedly) rapes who he rapes, and hurls childhood insults while ruining our country, is it then biased to say he’s an awful motherfucker?

[billvon 2,400]

2 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Is it possible that your hatred for Trump has biased how things "seem"?

When you've gotten to the point where you think Wendy is a Trump-hating extremist - you might want to look at where you are along that same spectrum.

[mbohu 77]

2 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

f a black person thinks the same thing, that the children won't be accepted by either side, are they racist?

Yes.

AND: From ryoder's description it is clear that it wasn't just about this particular comment, but that his old man was just itching to get his prejudice out, and the "think about the children" statement was just a way to do it that probably sounded acceptable to himself. (so he couldn't be accused of racism.) THAT is why that is racist, and if the same was the case with a man of any other race it WOULD be just as racist.

[sundevil777 93]

 

43 minutes ago, billvon said:

When you've gotten to the point where you think Wendy is a Trump-hating extremist - you might want to look at where you are along that same spectrum.

Maybe she does not hate Trump, but it seemed to be clear. I didn't say she was an extremist.

I believe we all ought to watch out for how our bias might affect the way we perceive things.

I'm not a Trump lover. I am a Marxism hater, and I hope I can resist the urge to hate the individual person that has fallen for the Evil Ideology.

Edited August 20, 2019 by sundevil777

[sundevil777 93]

24 minutes ago, mbohu said:

Yes.

AND: From ryoder's description it is clear that it wasn't just about this particular comment, but that his old man was just itching to get his prejudice out, and the "think about the children" statement was just a way to do it that probably sounded acceptable to himself. (so he couldn't be accused of racism.) THAT is why that is racist, and if the same was the case with a man of any other race it WOULD be just as racist.

It is great that you think people of all colors can be racist. There are many on the left that do not agree.

[Stumpy 256]

6 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

It is great that you think people of all colors can be racist. There are many on the left that do not agree.

Most on the left would agree just fine. 

[wmw999 2,122]

One of the keys to racism (or any other "ism") seems to bethat the "ist" doesn't accept the validity of someone else's opinion, because it doesn't mesh with his or her opinion. So, to an African-American man, someone white commenting on the African-American community seems a little high-handed. Just as, to a woman, a man pontificating on abortion can seem the same.

The thing is, that since the white male has been the de-facto standard for "normal" in America, some consider that opinion to be the standard up to which opinions in general are held.

This week the NY Times Magazine is focusing on the impact of slavery on America. It's roughly the 400'th anniversary of the first slave ship landing in Jamestown. Only people of color were invited to participate in this issue. Why? Because, frankly, their opinion matters just as much as the white guy who "earned everything by hard work." And there are plenty of examples of magazines with articles populated entirely by white men. Because, of course, theirs is the standard (majority of who counts) opinion.

Wendy P.

Edited August 20, 2019 by wmw999

[DJL 232]

On 8/18/2019 at 8:56 AM, RonD1120 said:

What angers me is the trend, dare I say requirement, to use the term nationalist in a pejorative connotation. I was raised to love my country and I still do.

Then you need to join in the effort to stamp out the context that the word "nationalism" has become associated with.  The words patriotism and nationalism were at one point interchangeable but nationalism has come to mean to exalt a static identity of your nation, exclude any outside cultural influence.

[billvon 2,400]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

The thing is, that since the white male has been the de-facto standard for "normal" in America, some consider that opinion to be the standard up to which opinions in general are held.

Yep.  We've talked about this before, but -

Michael Kimmel, a sociology professor at Stony Brook, once gave a guest lecture to a different class than the one he was teaching.  The guest lecture was to a women's studies class taught by a female professor.  As he walked to the podium, he overheard a student say "finally we'll get an unbiased opinion!"

White straight men are the standard in the US.  Because they are men, they have no specific gender and no gender bias.  Because they are straight, they have no specific sexuality and no bias in that way, either.  And because they are white, they have no race.  And a lot of people honestly think this, like that student in the guest lecture class.

 

[billvon 2,400]

11 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

I am a Marxism hater, and I hope I can resist the urge to hate the individual person that has fallen for the Evil Ideology.

As am I.

Quote

It is great that you think people of all colors can be racist. There are many on the left that do not agree.

Most people on the left do agree, actually.

[mbohu 77]

11 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

It is great that you think people of all colors can be racist. There are many on the left that do not agree.

Yes, I know. But I'd say that is a relatively small minority AND more importantly: It is something that has its origin in a confusion (or re-definition) of terms:

If, by "racism", you mean "institutionalized racism"--that is: a long standing historical discrimination against people based on their race via laws, and cultural institutions, such as slavery, jim crow laws, segregation, housing discrimination, and many others, which has a lasting effect now through the generations and has disadvantaged members of certain races over others--then, in THIS country, there really isn't any racism against "white" people. When laws are now enacted to reverse SOME effects of this history (as ALL can probably never be erased) and these laws now seem to disadvantage "white" people then this is generally NOT institutionalized racism as it only intends to balance out the scales somewhat. (Otherwise it's like you're cheating at the beginning of a race and then, once you are miles ahead, you suddenly say: NOW we have to be all fair and we cannot let the ones behind move forward to make up for your cheating.)

If by "racism" we mean a personal attitude that discriminates against others, fears them, dislikes them, etc. because of their race, then this can be displayed by members of ANY race.

I think that the later definition is the more commonly used one, and the word "racism" shouldn't be redefined to mean the former. If you mean the former, you can use "institutionalized racism" to clarify what you mean. I agree with you that some parts of the left--some call it "woke culture" or SJWs--seem to want to redefine the word "racism" to mean the former definition, more or less for political purposes, or to invalidate ANY kinds of arguments from the "white, straight, male" side of the population. I think that is a big mistake.

[jakee 1,255]

13 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

It is great that you think people of all colors can be racist. There are many on the left that do not agree.

I don’t see any reason not to think that the vast majority of those on the left would agree that non-white people can be racist.

 

The odd thing is, I can’t see why you brought this up in the first place. It’s a total non-sequitur. Why did you feel the need to jump in just to remind us all that black people can be wrong too? 

[billvon 2,400]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

I don’t see any reason not to think that the vast majority of those on the left would agree that non-white people can be racist.

 

The odd thing is, I can’t see why you brought this up in the first place. It’s a total non-sequitur. Why did you feel the need to jump in just to remind us all that black people can be wrong too? 

I suspect there's nothing nefarious.  In far-right news feeds, claims like "all white liberals hate themselves and their race, and think blacks can do no wrong" are common, and I suspect he just got drawn into that sort of thinking from constant exposure.

[wmw999 2,122]

I think one issue is that some people feel they are the sole authorities on what constitutes racism; of course, it's always racism if it's directed against them or people like them, and not if it's directed elsewhere.

When it's so deeply ingrained (as racism against black people is in the post-slavery US), it's easier to figure it might well be racism, just not recognized as such because it's so normal. Ergo the perception by people of minority that they've been subjected to racist behavior when we don't see it. Because we don't see it; it's the norm.

Wendy P.

Edited August 20, 2019 by wmw999

[sundevil777 93]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

I suspect there's nothing nefarious.  In far-right news feeds, claims like "all white liberals hate themselves and their race, and think blacks can do no wrong" are common, and I suspect he just got drawn into that sort of thinking from constant exposure.

I have never encountered what you "suspect" I've been exposed to, therefore "drawn into". That is such rubbish. Getting out more intellectually would help free you of such garbage. Completely without a clue you are.  So without a clue that you don't realize it is asserted by many on the left. Just do an internet search - can black people be racist.  To not even realize it is an issue shows you're not keeping up with the ideology.  The above, "far right news feeds..." shows how not being on board with the resistance means a person is "far-right", or "extremist".  But I suspect there's nothing nefarious, In far-left news feeds, conservatives get labeled by leftist media with those terms, but the you will not find a leftist author/pundit labeled as a Marxist, or extreme left, and I suspect you just got drawn into that sort of thinking from constant exposure.

Examples, many more are out there, do some research on your own idealogy.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-can-black-people-be-racist_n_5c3e5e8be4b01c93e00e8764

 

[yobnoc 142]

9 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

I have never encountered what you "suspect" I've been exposed to, therefore "drawn into". That is such rubbish. Getting out more intellectually would help free you of such garbage. Completely without a clue you are.  So without a clue that you don't realize it is asserted by many on the left. Just do an internet search - can black people be racist.  To not even realize it is an issue shows you're not keeping up with the ideology.  The above, "far right news feeds..." shows how not being on board with the resistance means a person is "far-right", or "extremist".  But I suspect there's nothing nefarious, In far-left news feeds, conservatives get labeled by leftist media with those terms, but the you will not find a leftist author/pundit labeled as a Marxist, or extreme left, and I suspect you just got drawn into that sort of thinking from constant exposure.

Examples, many more are out there, do some research on your own idealogy.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-can-black-people-be-racist_n_5c3e5e8be4b01c93e00e8764

 

Except that's clearly not Bill's ideology.  He so stated.

[mbohu 77]

1 hour ago, sundevil777 said:

Examples, many more are out there, do some research on your own idealogy.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-can-black-people-be-racist_n_5c3e5e8be4b01c93e00e8764

 

Yes, and this is exactly what I meant. There is a tendency to want to define "racism" to mean systemic racism ONLY. This quote from the article makes that clear:
"Racism is completely different from prejudice, because it’s systemic, ..."

From what I have heard and read, this way of defining racism is common in the younger generation because it is the way that it is being defined and taught at universities in various social science courses.
Most of "us lefties" here probably come from a different generation and I think that's one reason why we are not even that aware of this.
This is a wonderful exposition on this topic (and I happen to agree with David):

 

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, sundevil777 said:

So without a clue that you don't realize it is asserted by many on the left. Just do an internet search - can black people be racist. 

If you google that you find a few people arging that black people can't be racist because they define racism as institutional, and anything anything on a personal level is defined as prejudice. I disagree with them, but it's just a bullshit semantic argument. Again, what's your point with all this? Why is it so important to you that we recognise black people are bad too?

 

Quote

To not even realize it is an issue shows you're not keeping up with the ideology.  

Is it an issue? Again, semantics. Do you really need everyone to use the same PC terminology as you?

 

Quote

but the you will not find a leftist author/pundit labeled as a Marxist,

No one of any national importance or influence in the USA is anything close to a genuine Marxist - regardless of whether they're on the extreme left or not. That's why you don't hear it.

Edited August 20, 2019 by jakee

[mbohu 77]

To complete my thought on this:

If you are redefining "racism" to mean "systemic racism" only, the someone cannot be "racist" as such. In this case it is not possible for an individual to be racist. Only a system or a society's institutions can display such racism. An individual may be complicit in allowing these institutions to display systemic racism, but cannot himself be "racist"

If an individual can be "racist," the word has to have its original meaning: denoting an attitude and a prejudice that an individual can display.

So: When someone is saying "only whites can be racist" then 2 definitions of the word "racism" get mixed together, and that is either purposefully obfuscating (as the right would like to accuse--and sometimes they may be correct) or simply confused communication that muddies the waters unintentionally.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, sundevil777 said:

I have never encountered what you "suspect" I've been exposed to, therefore "drawn into". That is such rubbish. Getting out more intellectually would help free you of such garbage. Completely without a clue you are.  So without a clue that you don't realize it is asserted by many on the left. Just do an internet search - can black people be racist.  To not even realize it is an issue shows you're not keeping up with the ideology.  The above, "far right news feeds..." shows how not being on board with the resistance means a person is "far-right", or "extremist".

You didn't read my post, did you.

[TriGirl 268]

On 8/19/2019 at 7:59 PM, ryoder said:

Mine were lifelong Republicans, but that was back when the GOP:

- Opposed deficit spending.

- Opposed getting involved in foreign wars.

- Opposed government involvement in personal matters. 

This is what I meant by my stepmother being a "traditional" Republican.  These are the main points of the platform she supports. 

[Skwrl 56]

On 8/18/2019 at 11:23 AM, kallend said:

Sorry, but many of the "values" you profess on here are the exact opposite of the values Jesus taught.  You might want to re-read Matthew 5 - 7.

Or Matthew 25:31-46.   He's ignoring that one, too.  

[ryoder 1,384]

Yet another "I'm not racist" racist:

Candidate: Michigan city should be as white ‘as possible’

https://www.apnews.com/ba35f94a280648dfb1cf7e7af9712689

Cramer made her comments about keep Marysville as white as possible Thursday after the moderator asked candidates if the city should do more to attract foreign-born residents.

“Keep Marysville a white community as much as possible,” she replied.

“White. Seriously. In other words, no foreign-born, no foreign people.”