Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 4]

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The Westminster Confession as an authority? Come on man, why not just quote your pastor or the guy in the next pew up? Believe that woo-woo if it makes you happy but to my ear it was indistinguishable from dementia.

Ok. Whatever. You ask theological questions but you don't want theological answers. You don't really want to understand. You only ask to criticize and ridicule. The Westminster Confession of Faith, by the way, is a little more authoritative (in as much as it accurately explains Christian doctrine) than the guy in the next pew up.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

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The Westminster Confession as an authority? Come on man, why not just quote your pastor or the guy in the next pew up? Believe that woo-woo if it makes you happy but to my ear it was indistinguishable from dementia.

Ok. Whatever. You ask theological questions but you don't want theological answers. You don't really want to understand. You only ask to criticize and ridicule. The Westminster Confession of Faith, by the way, is a little more authoritative (in as much as it accurately explains Christian doctrine) than the guy in the next pew up.

I'm glad you edited your post. When it was just "Ok. Whatever" it sounded very millennial.

I don't ask theological questions; I question theological answers. You say I don't really want to understand. That's secret society code for I don't really want to "believe".

The Westminster Confession is something you folks who need to believe consider intellectually supportive of your positions. For others it is just more organ music, man.

I put it to Ron differently but I believe the same of you: if you really believe as you claim why do you protest as you do?

[jakee 1,254]

jaybird18c

******How many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actually resulted in hurting another person?

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Why does it matter if I hurt another person?

That doesn't answer the question.
And how many questions of mine do you think you've failed to answer?

Why does it matter if I hurt other people when it doesn't matter if I'm super, super, super nice to other people?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

christelsabine

***[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

No. You both do not. From your post No. 230:

"You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin."

Ron claimed, we all are born sinners, means even a newborn is a sinner.

I think it's appropriate to just call Christian belief a bunch of weasel words - that's what old people use to do when the end is coming closer, years can be counted on one hand - so: flight forward. If it helps .... why not??

It is my understanding that we are born with a sin nature because of original sin. A child is considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability. That is, when the child can discern two options the tendency is to choose in favor of egocentric reward and not to choose spiritual relationship with God. The latter decision is sin.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 4]

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I don't ask theological questions; I question theological answers.

Logically, what’s the difference? In questioning theological answers, you are in fact asking theological questions.

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You say I don't really want to understand. That's secret society code for I don't really want to "believe".

But you don’t, correct? You don’t want to believe. And you ridicule what you don’t really even want to understand. Deep down, you, on the surface, hate the idea of the church, a supreme authority, rules in that regard, control over your life, etc. But even deeper down, even though you say you don’t believe in God, you hate even the thought of him with every fiber of your being. Hell bent on autonomy, if you will. I know. I used to be exactly that way.

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The Westminster Confession is something you folks who need to believe consider intellectually supportive of your positions. For others it is just more organ music, man.

Codification of beliefs have always come about as a result of aberrant or heretical teachings creeping into the church. That’s the case whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. It’s the reason for all the assemblies and confessions throughout the years. The Westminster Confession is but one of many very fine documents which accurately detail theological orthodoxy. Many learned theologians came together for its composition. Any confession is only as good as it is biblically accurate and helpful. It is authoritative for the church in that way only. It in no way supersedes the authority of scripture. It is a helpful tool, if you will.

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I put it to Ron differently but I believe the same of you: if you really believe as you claim why do you protest as you do?

“Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.” (1 Peter 3:13-17)

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[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

In questioning theological answers, you are in fact asking theological questions.

No, that's a false equivalence.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[RonD1120 58]

jcd11235

***In questioning theological answers, you are in fact asking theological questions.

No, IMOthat's a false equivalence.

FIFY

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 1,912]

If God wanted mankind to understand She would make it so. She would not send us theologians to figure it out and tell us. She would just make Herself clear.

Arguing theology is the most egregious waste of brainpower I can think of. But it seems to be keep a few people amused here.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

gowlerk

If God wanted mankind to understand She would make it so. She would not send us theologians to figure it out and tell us. She would just make Herself clear.

Arguing theology is the most egregious waste of brainpower I can think of. But it seems to be keep a few people amused here.

I totally agree. Truth cannot be argued. Truth is either accepted or denied.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

******In questioning theological answers, you are in fact asking theological questions.

No, that's a false equivalence.

FIFY

As in F'd It (up) For You?

Re-corrected. It isn't a matter of opinion. The difference, by the way, is similar to the difference between writing and submitting an academic research paper and peer reviewing that paper.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

***If God wanted mankind to understand She would make it so. She would not send us theologians to figure it out and tell us. She would just make Herself clear.

Arguing theology is the most egregious waste of brainpower I can think of. But it seems to be keep a few people amused here.

I totally agree. Truth cannot be argued. Truth is either accepted or denied.

Stop changing the subject. We were discussing religion, not Truth.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[gowlerk 1,912]

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Stop changing the subject. We were discussing religion, not Truth.

Very nice. Thank you.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

jcd11235

******If God wanted mankind to understand She would make it so. She would not send us theologians to figure it out and tell us. She would just make Herself clear.

Arguing theology is the most egregious waste of brainpower I can think of. But it seems to be keep a few people amused here.

I totally agree. Truth cannot be argued. Truth is either accepted or denied.

Stop changing the subject. We were discussing religion, not Truth.

Maybe you are discussing religion. IMO, religion is simply ritualized behavior. I am focusing on truth.

I believe that man is composed of a body, a soul and, a spirit. My interest is living in the spirit, as much as one is able, instead of the body. The object is to save one's soul and spend eternity in heaven. To do so requires salvation in Christ by God's grace through faith and not of works or ritualized behavior.

A discussion on religion for example would be, which is better a church service lasting 60 minutes on Sunday morning or an open ended church service that lasts as long as the Holy Spirit directs? Or does Buddhism provide a path to eternal life? Another, is it OK for a Muslim to use any type of material for a prayer rug? Does it matter when a Muslim prays and in which direction he faces?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[theplummeter 14]

RonD1120

******[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

No. You both do not. From your post No. 230:

"You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin."

Ron claimed, we all are born sinners, means even a newborn is a sinner.

I think it's appropriate to just call Christian belief a bunch of weasel words - that's what old people use to do when the end is coming closer, years can be counted on one hand - so: flight forward. If it helps .... why not??

It is my understanding that we are born with a sin nature because of original sin. A child is considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability. That is, when the child can discern two options the tendency is to choose in favor of egocentric reward and not to choose spiritual relationship with God. The latter decision is sin.

So if I drown my children before they reach the age of accountability have I ensured their eternal place in heaven? In doing so have I sacrificed my soul to save theirs? And if so, have I given more than Jesus in that I will burn for eternity while he is back in heaven?

[RonD1120 58]

theplummeter

So if I drown my children before they reach the age of accountability have I ensured their eternal place in heaven? In doing so have I sacrificed my soul to save theirs? And if so, have I given more than Jesus in that I will burn for eternity while he is back in heaven?

Just goes to show how weird the human mind is.

No human can give more than Jesus did at Calvary.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 4]

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So if I drown my children before they reach the age of accountability have I ensured their eternal place in heaven?

The bible isn't explicit on this topic. However, it does imply that children of believers before an age of understanding and, therefore, accountability are somehow covered by grace. An example would be with King David when his child died and he said "He cannot come to me, but I shall go to him." A scriptural typeological parallelism being between King David and Jesus. As for others, it just isn't clear. So an assumption can't be made either way, in my opinion. I would think, at least for the most part, the principal would still apply. However, an answer can only be given in as much as scripture reveals.

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In doing so have I sacrificed my soul to save theirs?

Most likely.

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And if so, have I given more than Jesus in that I will burn for eternity while he is back in heaven?

No. We have no way to even comprehend the immesurable suffering Jesus endured on the cross. Much more happened there than merely that which occured at the hands of Roman soldiers.

[theplummeter 14]

But if Jesus suffered temporarily, knowing that he was headed back to heaven anyway (and that his suffering was needed to create a loophole for the law he made) and I will suffer infinitely for finite crimes won’t I end up suffering more than he did for the benefit of others?

[theplummeter 14]

And Ron,

What did Jesus give? He started out as God in heaven and if you were correct he is now God in heaven (and will be for all eternity). The sacrifice he made was to fulfill a rule that he created in the first place after creating flawed humans while knowing what we would do.

I don’t see the sacrifice, if he has lost nothing and is still an infinite god.

[christelsabine 1]

RonD1120

******[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

No. You both do not. From your post No. 230:

"You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin."

Ron claimed, we all are born sinners, means even a newborn is a sinner.

I think it's appropriate to just call Christian belief a bunch of weasel words - that's what old people use to do when the end is coming closer, years can be counted on one hand - so: flight forward. If it helps .... why not??

It is my understanding that we are born with a sin nature because of original sin. A child is considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability. That is, when the child can discern two options the tendency is to choose in favor of egocentric reward and not to choose spiritual relationship with God. The latter decision is sin.

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Sin is present when the child develops "I."

That's what you posted last autumn.

Now your understanding is ...".. child considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability".

Man, what will be your next understanding ? Seems, your explanations are quite ... let's call it: adaptive ?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[RonD1120 58]

theplummeter

And Ron,

What did Jesus give? He started out as God in heaven and if you were correct he is now God in heaven (and will be for all eternity). The sacrifice he made was to fulfill a rule that he created in the first place after creating flawed humans while knowing what we would do.

I don’t see the sacrifice, if he has lost nothing and is still an infinite god.

When Christ was incarnate as Jesus he was a complete, albeit most holy, human. The physical suffering He endured was only the beginning. On the cross He became sin and suffered spiritual death and separation from God, the Father.

He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

christelsabine

*********[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

No. You both do not. From your post No. 230:

"You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin."

Ron claimed, we all are born sinners, means even a newborn is a sinner.

I think it's appropriate to just call Christian belief a bunch of weasel words - that's what old people use to do when the end is coming closer, years can be counted on one hand - so: flight forward. If it helps .... why not??

It is my understanding that we are born with a sin nature because of original sin. A child is considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability. That is, when the child can discern two options the tendency is to choose in favor of egocentric reward and not to choose spiritual relationship with God. The latter decision is sin.

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Sin is present when the child develops "I."

That's what you posted last autumn.

Now your understanding is ...".. child considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability".

Man, what will be your next understanding ? Seems, your explanations are quite ... let's call it: adaptive ?

Two expressions of the same concept. When the child becomes egocentric he chooses for gratification of self. That is the beginning of sin nature. Much is forgiven the child until he reaches the age of accountability. Then child finds there are adverse consequences to bad choices.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

jaybird18c

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I don't ask theological questions; I question theological answers.

Logically, what’s the difference? In questioning theological answers, you are in fact asking theological questions.

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You say I don't really want to understand. That's secret society code for I don't really want to "believe".

But you don’t, correct? You don’t want to believe. And you ridicule what you don’t really even want to understand. Deep down, you, on the surface, hate the idea of the church, a supreme authority, rules in that regard, control over your life, etc. But even deeper down, even though you say you don’t believe in God, you hate even the thought of him with every fiber of your being. Hell bent on autonomy, if you will. I know. I used to be exactly that way.

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The Westminster Confession is something you folks who need to believe consider intellectually supportive of your positions. For others it is just more organ music, man.

Codification of beliefs have always come about as a result of aberrant or heretical teachings creeping into the church. That’s the case whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. It’s the reason for all the assemblies and confessions throughout the years. The Westminster Confession is but one of many very fine documents which accurately detail theological orthodoxy. Many learned theologians came together for its composition. Any confession is only as good as it is biblically accurate and helpful. It is authoritative for the church in that way only. It in no way supersedes the authority of scripture. It is a helpful tool, if you will.

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I put it to Ron differently but I believe the same of you: if you really believe as you claim why do you protest as you do?

“Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.” (1 Peter 3:13-17)

Perhaps I could have been more clear. I question the validity of answers wholly supported by theological interpretations. Also, it is not that I don't want to believe. It is simply that what you apparently believe is, by any rational consideration, unbelievable.

Regarding the Westminster Confession, I think of organized religion in much the same way I think about cigarette smoking: it's the year 2018 can we all please just get our collective shit together and quit arguing that it's just a choice that hurts no one? I'm referring to organized groups of people who have their hands in my pockets in the form of tax subsidies and who then use those advantages to elect morons who appoint ideologues to lifetime court appointments who then go merrily about denying basic human rights to our fellow Americans. And that's just the start of the offenses of organized religion.

I am not including spiritualism in the definition, however a person might define their spiritual experience. I think that's a good thing. I have to say, I find myself coming and going at the same time occasionally although, and it might be just coincidence, the episodes seem strongly associated with cocktail hour.

I also have no problem with benign forms of Christianity as practiced by many. Most of those folks are blissfully unaware of things like the Westminster Confession. They enjoy live and let live lives and somehow or another gain comfort from their religion. Not incidentally, that includes my Muslim friends in Indonesia.

Yes, I am dismissive of things like the Westminster Confession. So a bunch of guys, whose jobs are to convince people that the bible isn't drivel get together to hash things out one more time with the hope that finally everyone can get their what constitutes organized religion stories straight. And just to make the job go easier, for authority, they reference the bible and certain previously published confessions which were also based on the bible. #John, #Paul, #Leviticus.

What I want deep down is what you want to take. Of course, I want autonomy from the ludicrous proposition that I should bend a knee and turn my one life over to some interpretation of certain plagiarized and re-written ad nauseam Bronze age ideas. If you want to live your life as a slave, go for it. Just leave the rest of us, and our money, alone.

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[jakee 1,254]

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Codification of beliefs have always come about as a result of aberrant or heretical teachings creeping into the church. That’s the case whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. It’s the reason for all the assemblies and confessions throughout the years. The Westminster Confession is but one of many very fine documents which accurately detail theological orthodoxy. Many learned theologians came together for its composition.

What you've just written perfectly exemplifies why theology isn't a real subject. They start with the conclusion and work backwards from there, manipulating the 'reasoning' in whatever ways necessary to make it seem like the first principles fit the result.

It is the very antithesis of honesty and intellectual rigour. This Westminster mumbo may be a very fine piece of writing, but as a piece of thought it doesn't even qualify.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lippy 771]

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What you've just written perfectly exemplifies why theology Fox isn't a real subjectNews Channel. They start with the conclusion and work backwards from there, manipulating the 'reasoning' in whatever ways necessary to make it seem like the first principles fit the result.

FIFY

I got nuthin

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jaybird18c

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He says "In this lifetime". That's there and in other verses. I'm not sure what 'meaning' I'm inserting into those words.

Well put up or shut up. To which verse are you referring? Plenty of very learned biblical scholars back up what I told you with regard to the judgment of Jerusalem as the meaning of what would occur during their generation (e.g. AD 70). It does not say that Jesus will return in the lifetime of any 1st Century Jew.

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Make up your mind. Either we were created sinners (or that choice was made a long, long time ago) or we weren't.

Please review what was discussed concerning the unconverted vs. the converted nature of man.

Well, in both of these you seem unable to make up your mind.

Is the Bible accurate, inspired, literal history? Or is it "subject to interpretation?
Is it "impossible for man to not sin"? Or is it a choice?

In both cases, you want both.

jaybird18c

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That's funny. I seem to remember a lot more 'sins' than just those laid out in the "big 10."

And you obviously don’t understand the differences and meaning behind the laws described in the bible. That being civil (that pertaining only to the Nation of Israel), ceremonial (those whose purpose was to foreshadow the perfect sacrifice which was to come; one which wouldn’t merely “cover” their sin but take it away; fulfilled in the work of Christ on the cross), and moral (which still are applicable for us today). The bible is a progressive revelation of God's plan of salvation for his people. It describes the historical trials and tribulations, successes and failures, of a people who repeatedly turned away from and back towards God as he directed them out of a pagan, polytheistic, culture.

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And, just like there's a difference between going, say 10 over the speed limit or a rolling stop and reckless or intoxicated driving, I would expect that there's a difference in sins.

Or does 'your' God condemn anyone who transgresses in any way to the pits of hell?

And you definitely do not comprehend the holiness of God who cannot be in the presence of even the smallest sin. However, you are correct in that there are some more grievous than others. There are also more severe levels of punishment in hell. However, at that point, it doesn’t really matter. It’s still hell. That’s why people often refer to all sin being the same.

So, again, the laws laid out in the Bible are "subject to interpretation". Yet so many of the fundamentalists like to quote them when discriminating against people. The OT rules on gays is one of the more popular today, but others have been well used in the past.

And I thought Jesus came to give salvation to the Jews, who had 'lost their way' in regards to the sin offerings and sacrifices. Not to the other faiths, especially those in places they didn't even know existed.

And the 'you're going to burn in hell for the slightest transgression' is just more fear tactics. If God cannot be in the presence of even the slightest sin, why did he create us that way?
You are right that I don't understand that holiness. Or that arrogance. Or that intolerance.

***
It is my understanding that we are born with a sin nature because of original sin. A child is considered innocent until they reach the age of accountability. That is, when the child can discern two options the tendency is to choose in favor of egocentric reward and not to choose spiritual relationship with God. The latter decision is sin...

...1 Timothy 4
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. ...

The Holy Spirit spoke to me this morning. He said, when the admirers, the sceptics and, the make believers have left the disciples will remain. And, they are Mine.

These are signs of the latter days

You said a couple weeks ago that all babies are born evil. But now they are considered innocent? And is a "sin nature" automatically 'evil'? Please make up your mind.

And "signs of the latter days".

Again?

Didn't we go through the "End of Days" back in September?

Bill Cole predicted it in 2012, and a couple times before that, too.

And Harold Camping predicted the "Rapture" a few years ago.

And so many others have predicted the "End Times" or the "Latter Days" over and over again.

For a long, long time.

Are you the "Boy who cried 'the End of the World is Coming!!'"

I would confidently predict that you, and I and everyone else posting here will die (of causes natural or other) and your "End Times" will still not have arrived.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo