A very bad night in Dallas

[rehmwa 2]

cruelpops

***

Quote

Gotta give it to Dallas in a much cleaner use of an explosive to end this than did Philly

Not sure yet how I feel about this. Would like to know a bit more information, like if simply waiting was an option. Seems a bit like an execution....or drone strike.

It was a good kill... why do they need to wait for anything. The shooter didn't wait to see if he had any feelings about shooting the police officers. I love the form of justice used by the Dallas police officers.

it's not "justice" - it's escalation of force to stop a threat. They had to go this route after lesser options (which they tried) failed (including negotiation, waiting, finally a gun fight, etc etc)

cops don't give justice - that's the courts' job

I don't love it or hate, I just found it necessary to stop the killer. no more, no less


I'm amazed had how the average person can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that Justice does NOT equal vengence. It's sad, and scary.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,280]

Quote

You do realize this is the same rationality all terrorism supporters use, right?

Terrorism? The use of fear to change the behaviour of a population?

You said earlier in the thread that people should not feel free to challenge or refuse unlawful orders and searches from the police for fear of being shot. If the word terrorism is being bandied around so freely then is that not state sponsored terrorism?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

London86

Well, I'm glad i didn't go out last night, I was invited to a friends birthday at a bar in downtown Dallas, i didn't get out of work in time so stayed in Fort Worth.

As a non american i just can't get my head around all of this.

I understand the reasoning and movement of the black lives matter protest, but i wonder how much the media plays a part in this. There was a killing of an unarmed white man by police in Fresno last week - I've not heard a thing about that in mainstream media.

If you're not complying with Police, no matter what color you are - you're asking for trouble. I'm not saying this justifies shooting anybody - but if everyone just complied and did as they asked, there would be a lot less of these "white cop kills black man" stupid media headlines.

Simple - It s because black lives are all that really matter in the end.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 644]

That's quite a hyperbolic stretch there.

[BIGUN 1,109]

Quote

Flipping the coin the number of police killed in the line of duty (including accidents) in the UK since 2000 is 25 according to Wikipedia. Compare this to 2,282 in the US ( source).

This shows there obviously is a substantially greater threat to the lives of police in America than in the UK and this is largely down to guns.

Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[nolhtairt 0]

SkyDekker

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Gotta give it to Dallas in a much cleaner use of an explosive to end this than did Philly

Not sure yet how I feel about this. Would like to know a bit more information, like if simply waiting was an option. Seems a bit like an execution....or drone strike.

Guy's killed 5 cops and wounded several others, and they've got him cornered, and he's simply not giving himself up, nor is he presenting himself an easy target, and neither are the police presenting themselves as easy targets for that son of a bitch.

I agree with the tactics involved. He was talking with them. He told them his agenda. They realized they had no choice, and took him out. Fuck him.

You look at the Orlando massacre, SWAT team smashed a hole in the building's bathroom area to expose the shooter and engaged him in a shootout, killing him. Sometimes it's the only thing they can do, if the perp leaves them no options.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Quote

You look at the Orlando massacre, SWAT team smashed a hole in the building's bathroom area to expose the shooter and engaged him in a shootout, killing him.

My understanding was that he posed an immediate threat to hostages and people nearby. Not sure that was the case here. The fact 5 cops got killed (no evidence he is responsible for 5 killings directly) should have no bearing on action taken.

Quote

They realized they had no choice

Would like to find out more about that decision making process.

[jakee 1,280]

BIGUN

Quote

Flipping the coin the number of police killed in the line of duty (including accidents) in the UK since 2000 is 25 according to Wikipedia. Compare this to 2,282 in the US ( source).

This shows there obviously is a substantially greater threat to the lives of police in America than in the UK and this is largely down to guns.

Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Ok, so if the UK was as big as the US it would be 120 vs 2,282. Does that sound any better?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BIGUN 1,109]

OK... if you're going to argue logically; we'll just drop it.
Truth is - I'm on some meds and not thinking clearly right now, but was going somewhere with this and just can't focus.
My apologies.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[nolhtairt 0]

SkyDekker

Quote

You look at the Orlando massacre, SWAT team smashed a hole in the building's bathroom area to expose the shooter and engaged him in a shootout, killing him.

My understanding was that he posed an immediate threat to hostages and people nearby. Not sure that was the case here. The fact 5 cops got killed (no evidence he is responsible for 5 killings directly) should have no bearing on action taken.

***They realized they had no choice

Would like to find out more about that decision making process.

Here: "We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was," Brown said. "Other options would have exposed our officers to great danger. The suspect is deceased as a result of detonating the bomb."

What I am saying is, police saw him as a grave threat to their lives, and they weren't going to expose themselves to that threat any further.

[normiss 644]

A generic validation like that makes the Philly police bombing sound perfectly normal as well.

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

***

Quote

Flipping the coin the number of police killed in the line of duty (including accidents) in the UK since 2000 is 25 according to Wikipedia. Compare this to 2,282 in the US ( source).

This shows there obviously is a substantially greater threat to the lives of police in America than in the UK and this is largely down to guns.

Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Ok, so if the UK was as big as the US it would be 120 vs 2,282. Does that sound any better?

...but that's not taking into consideration the possibility of central cities having a significantly higher population density in a depressed economy where there are more people than jobs - this contributes to more poverty and in turn increases the crime rate disproportionately.

It's like saying that there is a higher crime rate among inner city blacks than civilized suburban whites and then attributing that to race - but that of course would be unfair since the data suggests that crime rates are driven by the level of poverty among other socioeconomic factors regardless of race.

...and you can't really attribute it to the amount of guns either. I'm willing to bet that there are more guns per person among those living in the suburbs vs those within the inner city where the majority of crime takes place. Only a fraction of the guns in this country are used to commit crime - it doesn't take very many.

I'd bet that there are enough guns to wreak havoc among the people in the UK right now - they just need an excuse to use them.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[tonyhays 86]

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Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Per capita basis?

2011 Gun deaths in the U.S..... 10.38
2011 Gun deaths in the U.K..... .23

Used 2011 'cause that was the latest year stats were available for the U.K. on gunpolicy.org

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[gowlerk 1,956]

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Simple - It s because black lives are all that really matter in the end.

Before you get too angry and start to feel all resentful, go listen to Billie Holliday sing "Strange Fruit". There is a long history of extra judicial killing of black men in America. Black people are simply saying "we aren't going to take it any more".
If you can't understand that, it's because you have chosen not to.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

tonyhays

Quote

Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Per capita basis?

2011 Gun deaths in the U.S..... 10.38
2011 Gun deaths in the U.K..... .23

And if we break that number down, 7 of those are suicides, the majority of which are in the suburbs. 3 of those are homicides, the majority of which are within inner cities.

The homicide rate is down nearly half since the late 80s and the trend still seems to be decreasing - we just have to do what we've been doing along with a few addional, but reasonable restrictions and better education to create more productive generations.

I'm not so sure about suicides however. We'd have to find out why people are killing themselves - and I'm pretty sure it's not because of all the guns.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Bolas 5]

jakee

Quote

You do realize this is the same rationality all terrorism supporters use, right?

Terrorism? The use of fear to change the behaviour of a population?

You said earlier in the thread that people should not feel free to challenge or refuse unlawful orders and searches from the police for fear of being shot. If the word terrorism is being bandied around so freely then is that not state sponsored terrorism?

What I said was

Quote

When the police tell you to do something, do it, and do it slowly.

There will be time to argue legality of the charges/search/stop later.

People can challenge unlawful orders unthreateningly initially but also need to realize that even if they think the officer is wrong, if the officer wants to detain/search/arrest them, it's going to happen.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mpohl 1]

Dude.

You do realize that you go straight over the heads/ math capabilities of 99.9% of the US population. The horror!

Might as well ask for the first derivative of y=x^2.

tonyhays

Quote

Please take into account the UK's 64M population compared to the US's 300+ Million and compare on a per capita basis.

Largely down to guns? - No, largely down to intentions.

Per capita basis?

2011 Gun deaths in the U.S..... 10.38
2011 Gun deaths in the U.K..... .23

Used 2011 'cause that was the latest year stats were available for the U.K. on gunpolicy.org

[Bolas 5]

gowlerk

Quote

Simple - It s because black lives are all that really matter in the end.

Before you get too angry and start to feel all resentful, go listen to Billie Holliday sing "Strange Fruit". There is a long history of extra judicial killing of black men in America. Black people are simply saying "we aren't going to take it any more".
If you can't understand that, it's because you have chosen not to.

Was there a history? Yes but the targets weren't poor black people who were compliant but those that fought back or had the "gall" to try and better themselves though education, better jobs, etc.

Flipping the script for a moment: let's assume the police are racists and want to do nothing more than "keep the black man down." If that's the case, why go after poor black criminals? They're already down. Wouldn't their racist effort be better served going after the black middle and upper-class?

Let's stop grouping and tracking people by DNA: race, gender, orientation, etc.
What matters is the factors that people have control over and can change: religious affiliation, citizenship status, criminal record, financial status, education, clothing, etc.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,476]

Quote

So any criminal that wants to shoot a cop just needs to keep their weapon hidden until they're ready to shoot or better yet, just shoot through their clothes.

That might work to kill cops, yes. The fact that criminals might do that does not mean it is OK to shoot unarmed kids walking home from school because they might be about to "shoot through their clothes."

Cops have a tough, often thankless job. They often have to protect people who hate them from other people who hate them, and they have to put their lives on the line to do that. That means they have to err on the side of under-reaction, and use deadly force only when it is clearly and unambiguously needed to stop a threat to themselves or others. It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in deciding that someone doesn't want to take those risks.

[Bolas 5]

billvon

Quote

So any criminal that wants to shoot a cop just needs to keep their weapon hidden until they're ready to shoot or better yet, just shoot through their clothes.

That might work to kill cops, yes. The fact that criminals might do that does not mean it is OK to shoot unarmed kids walking home from school because they might be about to "shoot through their clothes."

Cops have a tough, often thankless job. They often have to protect people who hate them from other people who hate them, and they have to put their lives on the line to do that. That means they have to err on the side of under-reaction, and use deadly force only when it is clearly and unambiguously needed to stop a threat to themselves or others. It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in deciding that someone doesn't want to take those risks.

One can hate the job another does but still respect the person doing it similar to hating the war but supporting the troops fighting.

Even if one can't respect the police, it's still in their own best interest to comply. If one has to show their anger, use only their mouth but still may be best to avoid credible threatening statements.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

billvon

***So any criminal that wants to shoot a cop just needs to keep their weapon hidden until they're ready to shoot or better yet, just shoot through their clothes.

That might work to kill cops, yes. The fact that criminals might do that does not mean it is OK to shoot unarmed kids walking home from school because they might be about to "shoot through their clothes."

Cops have a tough, often thankless job. They often have to protect people who hate them from other people who hate them, and they have to put their lives on the line to do that. That means they have to err on the side of under-reaction, and use deadly force only when it is clearly and unambiguously needed to stop a threat to themselves or others. It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in deciding that someone doesn't want to take those risks.

It doesn't seem that long a go that all the cool kids couldn't drive to Nevada fast enough to get an LEO in their gun sights. And when two of Bundy's guest killed 2 Las Vegas LEOs, plus a few civilians, The Bundy militia couldn't distance themselves fast enough from the cop killers. Now with BLM, the right claims that every single person who supports BLM is a cop killer.

[The111 1]

turtlespeed

Simple - It s because black lives are all that really matter in the end.

That statement is complete bullshit and could not possibly accomplish anything other than further division.

Fortunately, some people actually get it (see attached).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[CornishChris 5]

Ok. I will take it into account and multiply the 25 killings in the UK by 5. That makes it 125 vs 2,282. Much better.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[BIGUN 1,109]

See posts 58 & 59.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Coreeece 2]

CornishChris

Ok. I will take it into account and multiply the 25 killings in the UK by 5. That makes it 125 vs 2,282. Much better.

The thing you forgot to mention is that about 70% of those 2,282 officers were killed in accidents. But ya, it's much easier to kill a cop with a gun - who'da thunk?

...and even if you took away every gun from every law abiding citizen, I'd bet the handful of criminals that kill about 50 cops per year, would still have their guns.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour