8 yr old girl shot dead by 11yr old boy

[rushmc 18]

And when looked at in the context of total jumps, reserves are rarely used

you want to get rid of yours?

That, in essence, is what you are proposing

Rarely works, so, you don't need your gun.

thankfully you do not get to decide this

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,434]

>And when looked at in the context of total jumps, reserves are rarely used
>you want to get rid of yours?

By his logic, of course you would. You are far more likely to be killed in a hospital. Since people dying because they don't have reserves (and people dying due to gun deaths) are a small number, it is illogical to take action to prevent them. Why try to change gun laws, or spend all the money on a reserve, when the number of deaths is a tiny fraction of the number of hospital deaths?

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

billvon

>If you say so. . . . Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

That's great that you are comfortable with them. You are still more likely to be killed because you are carrying one. As I suspected, you will not be able to accept that, despite it being proven in several studies.

=================
Feb 7, 2009
Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Charles C. Branas, PhD, Therese S. Richmond, PhD, CRNP, Dennis P. Culhane, PhD, Thomas R. Ten Have, PhD, MPH, and Douglas J. Wiebe, PhD

ABSTRACT

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.

Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within Philadelphia, PA, from 2003 to 2006. We adjusted odds ratios for confounding variables.

Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).

Conclusions. On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault.
================
Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

Arthur L. Kellermann, Frederick P. Rivara, Norman B. Rushforth, Joyce G. Banton, Donald T. Reay, Jerry T. Francisco, Ana B. Locci, Janice Prodzinski, Bela B. Hackman, and Grant Somes

New England Journal of Medicine 1993

During the study period, 1860 homicides occurred in the three counties, 444 of them (23.9 percent) in the home of the victim. After excluding 24 cases for various reasons, we interviewed proxy respondents for 93 percent of the victims. Controls were identified for 99 percent of these, yielding 388 matched pairs. As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Conclusions

. . .Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
===============
Journal of Trauma-Injury Infection & Critical Care:
August 1998 - Volume 45

Abstract

Objectives: Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.

Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

Results: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
========================

All three of those have some serious flaws with them.

Philly

NEJM

The last one only counts defensive gun uses that result in a shooting. Reliable statistics are almost impossible to find, mainly because "non shooting defensive gun use" incidents are often not reported to the police. But numbers between 80% and 90% are often quoted.

It's a repeat of the Brady Group's "43 times more likely" which has been thoroughly debunked.

It also counts shootings "in or around" a residence. It doesn't seem to say if the guns used in the crimes were kept in the residence.

I won't say guns aren't dangerous. And I think jbscout's ascertaition that he "won't get shot because he has his own gun" is ridiculous. Having a gun isn't a bulletproof shield.
Nor is it a 'magic wand' that will fend off the bad guys.

But it is a means of defense against them.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>And when looked at in the context of total jumps, reserves are rarely used
>you want to get rid of yours?

By his logic, of course you would. You are far more likely to be killed in a hospital. Since people dying because they don't have reserves (and people dying due to gun deaths) are a small number, it is illogical to take action to prevent them. Why try to change gun laws, or spend all the money on a reserve, when the number of deaths is a tiny fraction of the number of hospital deaths?

Which basically proves the gun control issue is politically driven , and has little to do with saving lives

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

wolfriverjoe

***>If you say so. . . . Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

That's great that you are comfortable with them. You are still more likely to be killed because you are carrying one. As I suspected, you will not be able to accept that, despite it being proven in several studies.

=================
Feb 7, 2009
Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Charles C. Branas, PhD, Therese S. Richmond, PhD, CRNP, Dennis P. Culhane, PhD, Thomas R. Ten Have, PhD, MPH, and Douglas J. Wiebe, PhD

ABSTRACT

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.

Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within Philadelphia, PA, from 2003 to 2006. We adjusted odds ratios for confounding variables.

Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).

Conclusions. On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault.
================
Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

Arthur L. Kellermann, Frederick P. Rivara, Norman B. Rushforth, Joyce G. Banton, Donald T. Reay, Jerry T. Francisco, Ana B. Locci, Janice Prodzinski, Bela B. Hackman, and Grant Somes

New England Journal of Medicine 1993

During the study period, 1860 homicides occurred in the three counties, 444 of them (23.9 percent) in the home of the victim. After excluding 24 cases for various reasons, we interviewed proxy respondents for 93 percent of the victims. Controls were identified for 99 percent of these, yielding 388 matched pairs. As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Conclusions

. . .Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
===============
Journal of Trauma-Injury Infection & Critical Care:
August 1998 - Volume 45

Abstract

Objectives: Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.

Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

Results: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
========================

All three of those have some serious flaws with them.

Philly

NEJM

The last one only counts defensive gun uses that result in a shooting. Reliable statistics are almost impossible to find, mainly because "non shooting defensive gun use" incidents are often not reported to the police. But numbers between 80% and 90% are often quoted.

It's a repeat of the Brady Group's "43 times more likely" which has been thoroughly debunked.

It also counts shootings "in or around" a residence. It doesn't seem to say if the guns used in the crimes were kept in the residence.

I won't say guns aren't dangerous. And I think jbscout's ascertaition that he "won't get shot because he has his own gun" is ridiculous. Having a gun isn't a bulletproof shield.
Nor is it a 'magic wand' that will fend off the bad guys.

But it is a means of defense against them.

The flaws have been pointed out to him before

He doesn't care

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jbscout2002 1]

If you walk into an ER and survey gun shot victims, there is a high likelihood you will be surveying people who were armed when they were shot because they were gang bangers hanging out in a crack ally.

In 2013 16,000 people committed suicide by overdosing on prescription medication, so I don't think other people's suicide has any impact on my chances of being shot.

Again when you are surveying homicides from households containing illicit drug users and people with criminal or domestic violence records......these people aren't permitted to own firearms anyways.

These reports are just as skewed as any others.

[billvon 2,434]

>But it is a means of defense against them.

Yes, it is. However, owning and carrying a gun means that you are more likely to be harmed or killed. There are several studies that demonstrate this, and no studies that I have ever seen that show otherwise.

Does that mean that it's wrong to carry a gun? No, it's just a risk you take. The only person who can decide if that risk is worthwhile is the person carrying it. Indeed, even if you could prove to everyone's satisfaction that carrying a gun increased the odds that you and your family would be killed, I am sure many would still carry them, simply because they like them.

[jbscout2002 1]

And I don't think I "won't" be shot. I got shot holding an assault riffle with a pistol on my thigh wearing body armor and surrounded by guys with assault riffles ans squad automatic riffles.

I just think my odds are a little better that I won't be cornered with a room with my family while we each wait for our turn to be executed.

[christelsabine 1]

rushmc

***
Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

You know, someone helped me once learn how do make a link clicky

but it takes being less bitchy to help someone learn

Oh my, it took 3 yrs for you, too??

In such a time period, I taught all my kids to walk, to talk, to find their way to the rest room - and an armed heroic soldier needs how long to make a link clicky?

Bwahahahaha - let's just hope, in an emergency case in an enemy country, he will find the trigger .....

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[billvon 2,434]

>If you walk into an ER and survey gun shot victims, there is a high likelihood
>you will be surveying people who were armed when they were shot because
>they were gang bangers hanging out in a crack ally.

So "it won't happen to me because I am not a gang banger."

>In 2013 16,000 people committed suicide by overdosing on prescription
> medication, so I don't think other people's suicide has any impact on my
>chances of being shot.

Irrelevant.

This argument parallels two common arguments in skydiving - the camera and the small canopy. I have found that facts really don't matter. The person wants to jump with the camera at 50 jumps, or wants to jump the Velocity at 100 jumps, and will ignore any statistical information about the dangers - because they are certain that they are exceptional, the statistics do not apply to them, they are not an idiot, they have mad skillz, they ride motorcycles so are used to high speed sports, their father was a pilot so they understand more than most skydivers, their instructors all say they are doing great, some guy said he was ready for a camera and besides, how hard can it be? What's the worst that can happen? They see people landing small parachutes all the time without dying.

So I give them the info and they decide what to do with it.

If you carry a gun your odds of being injured or killed go up. If you still want to carry a gun, it's up to you. Heck, if you want to tell yourself that you are actually safer, and that makes you feel good, that's up to you too.

[jbscout2002 1]

billvon

>But it is a means of defense against them.

Yes, it is. However, owning and carrying a gun means that you are more likely to be harmed or killed. There are several studies that demonstrate this, and no studies that I have ever seen that show otherwise.

Does that mean that it's wrong to carry a gun? No, it's just a risk you take. The only person who can decide if that risk is worthwhile is the person carrying it. Indeed, even if you could prove to everyone's satisfaction that carrying a gun increased the odds that you and your family would be killed, I am sure many would still carry them, simply because they like them.

I'm not a philosopher, nor do I have any scientific data to back this up, but I feel like if you and I stopped at Taco Bell, and someone whips out a street sweeper because his burrito was folded wrong, that the odds of survival would be slightly in my favor.

[rushmc 18]

christelsabine

******
Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

You know, someone helped me once learn how do make a link clicky

but it takes being less bitchy to help someone learn

Such a sweet heart

Oh my, it took 3 yrs for you, too??

In such a time period, I taught all my kids to walk, to talk, to find their way to the rest room - and an armed heroic soldier needs how long to make a link clicky?

Bwahahahaha - let's just hope, in an emergency case in an enemy country, he will find the trigger .....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jbscout2002 1]

billvon

>If you walk into an ER and survey gun shot victims, there is a high likelihood
>you will be surveying people who were armed when they were shot because
>they were gang bangers hanging out in a crack ally.

So "it won't happen to me because I am not a gang banger."

>In 2013 16,000 people committed suicide by overdosing on prescription
> medication, so I don't think other people's suicide has any impact on my
>chances of being shot.

Irrelevant.

This argument parallels two common arguments in skydiving - the camera and the small canopy. I have found that facts really don't matter. The person wants to jump with the camera at 50 jumps, or wants to jump the Velocity at 100 jumps, and will ignore any statistical information about the dangers - because they are certain that they are exceptional, the statistics do not apply to them, they are not an idiot, they have mad skillz, they ride motorcycles so are used to high speed sports, their father was a pilot so they understand more than most skydivers, their instructors all say they are doing great, some guy said he was ready for a camera and besides, how hard can it be? What's the worst that can happen? They see people landing small parachutes all the time without dying.

So I give them the info and they decide what to do with it.

If you carry a gun your odds of being injured or killed go up. If you still want to carry a gun, it's up to you. Heck, if you want to tell yourself that you are actually safer, and that makes you feel good, that's up to you too.

In this argument, the 50 jump cameraman would be the gang banger. He is engaging in higher risk activities.

The average citizen would be a 1.0 jumper with no camera at 50 jumps.

The CCW would be the 1.0 jumper with a 1.0 reserve, just to play it safe.

[christelsabine 1]

rushmc

*********
Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

You know, someone helped me once learn how do make a link clicky

but it takes being less bitchy to help someone learn

Such a sweet heart

Oh my, it took 3 yrs for you, too??

In such a time period, I taught all my kids to walk, to talk, to find their way to the rest room - and an armed heroic soldier needs how long to make a link clicky?

Bwahahahaha - let's just hope, in an emergency case in an enemy country, he will find the trigger .....

Just noticed, they forgot to teach you about the correct use of *quote* ...

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rushmc 18]

christelsabine

************
Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

You know, someone helped me once learn how do make a link clicky

but it takes being less bitchy to help someone learn

Such a sweet heart

Oh my, it took 3 yrs for you, too??

In such a time period, I taught all my kids to walk, to talk, to find their way to the rest room - and an armed heroic soldier needs how long to make a link clicky?

Bwahahahaha - let's just hope, in an emergency case in an enemy country, he will find the trigger .....

Just noticed, they forgot to teach you about the correct use of *quote* ...

Live with it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jbscout2002 1]

If an iPad had a trigger I'd be all over it. Guns don't require typing and user interface skills.

[jbscout2002 1]

F' it. You guys are mean. I'm glad you don't have guns. This argument would have led to another shooting by now that would have strengthened your argument.

[headoverheels 291]

jbscout2002

I would feel safe in Samolia. No one bitches and moans if you walk around with an RPG or have a .50 cal welded to the top of your truck.

Then go.

[normiss 622]

Just you wait. There will be a mass tobaccoing soon.
It will be horrendous!
Then what??

[RMK 3]

rushmc

When you want to post a link that is clicky

Click the "url" button at the bottom of the text window, paste your link, click the button a second time

The second one will have a / slash in front

...or just highlight your link and click "url"; it puts the quote markers at beginning and end in one single click.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[jdkalou 0]

Wet Hands

[Stumpy 256]

jbscout2002

I just think my odds are a little better that I won't be cornered with a room with my family while we each wait for our turn to be executed.

Unless you live in a war zone, the odds of this happening to you are basically zero. The odds of you dying of a head injury in a car crash are much higher. Do you wear a helmet when you drive?? After all - that is likely a much more effective way to save your life than carrying a gun?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jbscout2002 1]

Stumpy

***
I just think my odds are a little better that I won't be cornered with a room with my family while we each wait for our turn to be executed.

Unless you live in a war zone, the odds of this happening to you are basically zero. The odds of you dying of a head injury in a car crash are much higher. Do you wear a helmet when you drive?? After all - that is likely a much more effective way to save your life than carrying a gun?

So to quote your side, "I'm sure those 9 families in Oregan will take comfort in knowing that there was a higher likelihood of dying in a car wreck"

Like with that logic, what's the point of gun control? They probably would have been killed on they way home anyways. Might as well drop it and move on.

[jbscout2002 1]

I think most of us are in agreement that these type of crazy mass shootings are extremely rare and make up a tiny fraction of murders in the USA, but to say the number of these incidents is so high that it demands gun control, and then tell someone having a gun is unnecessary because the chances of ever being a victim are so extremely low in the same argument is silly.

Columbine shooters went room to room, V-Tech shooter went building to building, Newtown shooter went room to room. This guy in Oregan only went to one room. There was an armed veteran in the building next door. If the shooter kept going, would you rather be in the room with the armed veteran, or would you have preferred he left his gun in the car?

I don't fear for my life every day. In fact I feel like I cheated death and I'm on borrowed time so I just try to make the most of it. I have a CCW, but I hardly every carry a gun because I'm in a really low crime small town area. I got a NY CCW because it was the only way I could legally have my handguns here. If all states followed the same rules, I wouldn't have even bothered because all my stuff was legal anyways.

Simple truth is, if you don't like guns, then you don't have to have anything to do with them. Your rights end where mine begin, and that's that.

[Croc 0]

kallend

Another killer child with a gun. www.cantonrep.com/article/20151005/NEWS/151009705

Nothing to worry about - no need for any changes. Just collateral damage.

Perhaps we should outlaw all accidents, including canopy collisions.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy