8 yr old girl shot dead by 11yr old boy

[billvon 2,400]

Quote

I wonder what would happen in the liberal sphere, if it was proven that green energy cars caused cancer.

Everything causes cancer.

[kallend 1,623]

And Marc's weaseling continues.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

And Marc's weaseling continues.

Ya

in kallend land

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

Quote

Doesn't fit the MO. It's not about saving lives it's about being able to bitch moan and wine about something. Want to save a multitude of lives more than guns take, worry about tobacco, or the dozen of other non constitutionaly protected activities that kill more innocent people than guns do.

On the other hand, if illegal aliens murder thousands of US citizens, that justifies a hundred billion dollar wall and a change to the US Constitution. If four people are killed in Benghazi, that justifies thousands of hours of investigations to try to drive down Hillary's poll numbers. Terrorism justifies strip searches, the TSA and torture, even though in the US it represents a tiny fraction of the number that guns kill.

But doing anything about the tens of thousands of gun murders? Out of the question!

Remember - it's not the number of people, it's whether the deaths can be used to support your favorite political cause.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

And Marc's weaseling continues.

kallend weasel land

http://dilbert.com/strip/2014-10-02

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

***
And Marc's weaseling continues.

Ya

in kallend land

I can indeed do the calculation using the number YOU told us in post #159 of this thread combined with the US population from the Census Bureau to confirm my claim.

Maybe arithmetic doesn't work in Rush-land like it does in the rest of the world.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

Your one warning.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

******
And Marc's weaseling continues.

Ya

in kallend land

I can indeed do the calculation using the number YOU told us in post #159 of this thread combined with the US population from the Census Bureau to confirm my claim.

Maybe arithmetic doesn't work in Rush-land like it does in the rest of the world.

Now back to this?

Your cyphering worked just fine John

It just did not have the impact you tried to get when placed in the correct context

It this why you came back to this?
Trying to salvage a lost point?

Really?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

*********
And Marc's weaseling continues.

Ya

in kallend land

I can indeed do the calculation using the number YOU told us in post #159 of this thread combined with the US population from the Census Bureau to confirm my claim.

Maybe arithmetic doesn't work in Rush-land like it does in the rest of the world.

Now back to this?

Your cyphering worked just fine John

It just did not have the impact you tried to get when placed in the correct context

It this why you came back to this?
Trying to salvage a lost point?

Really?

Really!

(1.19/100,000)*310,000,000) >3,500 excess murders a year, using YOUR number.

I'm sorry that you think 3,500 extra murders every year has little impact in any context. Try this for context:

2,977 killed in the 9/11 attacks.

2,229 US troops have been killed in Afghanistan in 14 years.

I suspect the 3,500+ additional victims' families would disagree with you about the impact.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

And how many per 100,000 difference is it?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

***

Quote

Liberal anti gunners are like doctors that are ignoring cardiovascular disease, infectious diseases, strokes, cancer, COPD etc, and are requesting billions of dollars to stop pertussis.

Like right-wing anti-terrorists?

(And what is it that they're ignoring?)

The gun-nuts are ignoring the thousands of their fellow citizens who are shot dead every year due to unnecessarily lax gun laws, and the anguish of the victims' families. So they throw dust in the air to try to conceal their indifference.

Professor, as an individual who is among the top of their field in a scientific community, do you honestly hold conviction in this statement, citizens who are shot dead every year due to unnecessarily lax gun laws? An unshakeable assertion that lax gun laws are the proponent for the victims of gun violence?

I ask this, pointing out, that no current laws or any laws that had been proposed in the last decade would have stopped any of the mass shootings that happened in the last 3 years, possibly more. Also that, some states with the most lax gun laws have the lowest murder rates in the nation while other states that have the strictest gun laws have more than one of the nations deadliest cities within their state lines.

It seems we can all take the same data and highlight the portions of that data that make our side of the debate look better, but this simply isn't the scientific method. For the most part, IMHO, researchers are collecting data to show how gun violence is created or affected by either stance A, or stance B. This of course means that most studies are being conducted with preconceived biases, IOW:

"pre-existing beliefs can alter the interpretation of results, as in confirmation bias; this is a heuristic that leads a person with a particular belief to see things as reinforcing their belief, even if another observer might disagree (in other words, people tend to observe what they expect to observe)."

Just my little ole opinion here, but I firmly assert that if general violence was explored as a public health concern by the criminology, sociology, psychology, and medical fields, that all violence including gun violence could be reduced. I also expect that as a byproduct of this effort, gun control zealots would stop charging full steam for as much "ban" as possible, which in turn could result in less aggressive resistance from pro gun groups afraid of unnecessarily losing "control". (I believe that like dealing with children, many gun people perceive your gain in "control" as their loss in "control" and it scares them)

My hypothesis would be that if the gun debate cools (a calming of ban threats, panicked gun buying, and mistrust by both sides), then what could actually be considered "common sense" laws could be passed, such as national background checks, or a system that makes it easier to get someone seen by the wizard and put on the "no buy" list, yet offers avenues for that person to clear there record if it was decided to be unfounded.

Perhaps that last paragraph was a silly fantasy that would never happen, but even if it didn't, the result would still be a reduction in violence and in gun murder specifically, so what would we have lost other than the argument of weather guns should be allowed in the U.S.?

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

And how many per 100,000 difference is it?

You really have a very poor memory, both what what others post and for what you post.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

I don't recall seeing these high profile incidents in the media.

Pearl High School - Oct. 1, 1997

Luke Woodham fatally stabbed his mother at home before opening fire at his high school, killing two students and injuring seven others. The attack was stopped when Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved his .45 caliber handgun from his truck and confronted Woodham, detaining him until authorities could arrive.
Myrick’s action stopped Woodham from going across the street to the middle school as he had planned.

Parker Middle School - April 24, 1998

A 14-year-old student showed up to his middle school dance carrying a .25-caliber pistol. He opened fire inside the dance, killing one teacher and wounding another as well as two students. The rampage ended when James Strand, owner of the banquet hall the dance was happening in, grabbed his personal shotgun and confronted the 14-year-old killer. Strand held the teen at gunpoint for 11 minutes before finally getting him to drop the weapon and lie on the ground and searching him for additional weapons.

Appalachian School of Law - Jan. 16, 2002

A 43-year-old former student armed with a .380 handgun killed Dean Anthony Sutin and Professor Thomas Blackwell with point blank shots and went on to kill fellow student Angela Dales as well as wounding three others before being confronted at gunpoint by law students Tracy Bridges, a county sheriff’s deputy, and Mikael Gross, a police officer, after retrieving their personal handguns from their vehicles. The gunman was then apprehended by other students.
Gross and Bridges lost valuable response time accessing their handguns because of the law school’s standing as a gun-free zone.

New Life Church - Dec. 9, 2007

2 parishioners were killed and 3 wounded when a gunman toting a Bushmaster AR-15 opened fire at New Hope Church. Hearing the rifle fire,  Jeanne Assam grabbed her personal concealed carry firearm and confronted the gunman from a distance of 20 yards. According to 5280 Magazine:
She fires five quick shots. Murray falls backward. Assam moves to the middle of the corridor and rushes forward. She’s a few dozen feet from Murray now, exposed in the middle of the hallway. “Drop your weapon, or I will kill you!” she yells. Murray sits up to face her. He’s still holding the rifle. Boom-boom-boom. Bullets rip past her and pepper a wall. While Murray shoots, Assam fires three times.
Through the haze of gun smoke, Assam sees the man struggling on the floor. He props his head against a wall. Her weapon is up, trained on the man. She sees his hands moving near his shoulder. He’s trying to pull the pin on a grenade. He’s going to kill everyone around here, Assam thinks. She instinctively steps back and fires two more shots.

New York Mills AT&T Store - May 27, 2010

A 79-year-old man entered an AT&T store in New York Mills, New York carrying a .357 magnum revolver in his hand and a list of employees he planned to kill in his pocket. Hearing the hand cannon go off, Donald J. Moore drew his own personal weapon and killed the gunman before he could complete his plan. One employee was wounded in the shooting.

Sullivan Central High School - August 30, 2010

When a 62-year-old man armed with two handguns forced his way into Sullivan Central High School in Tennessee, he was immediately engaged by School Resource Officer Carolyn Gudger. Gudger put her body between the gunman and a student and started what would turn out to be a more than 10 minute gun-to-gun encounter. Gudger used the time to slowly move the man to a less crowded part of the school. When other officers arrived on the scene, a brief gun battle erupted ending with the gunman mortally wounded.

Freewill Baptist Church - March 25, 2012

Aaron Guyton was inside the recreation building of his grandfather’s church when he saw Jessie Gates, a member of the congregation, pulling a shotgun from his vehicle. Guyton leapt into action, locking the doors to the church where services were going on. Gates kicked in the door and pointed the shotgun at Rev. Henry Guyton and several parishioners. Drawing his concealed handgun, the younger Guyton held Gates at gunpoint while two members of the church took him to the ground. Rev. Guyton then took the shotgun from his hand.

Clackamas Town Center Mall - Dec. 11, 2012

Two people were killed and a third was seriously wounded at Clackamas Town Center near Portland, Oregon when a rifle-toting gunman opened fire in in the busy food court. Nick Meli, a shopper in the mall, drew a personally owned firearm on the gunman, who immediately retreated to a service corridor and killed himself. Meli did not fire his weapon for fear of striking bystanders yet authorities say his actions caused the gunman to cease his attack and end his own life.

Mystic Strip Club - January 11, 2014

After being refused entry to the strip club for belligerent behavior and racist comments earlir in the night, Thomas Elliott Hjelmeland returned carrying a handgun and wearing a Halloween mask. As soon as he entered the club, Hjelmeland opened fire, striking bouncer Brian Rizzo, a patron, and a waitress. Another bouncer, Jonathan Baer drew his concealed handgun and shot Hjelmeland, killing him.
Following the attack Baer posted to Facebook: “I did what I felt was right to stop the shooter…I carry every day, and will continue to, and will so with the hope that I will NEVER have to pull it out again.”

Austin, Texas Construction Site - April 30, 2014

An irate former employee came to a construction site and opened fire on his co-workers. The site’s foreman, a Concealed Handgun License holder, drew his firearm and opened fire. Both men were wounded in the exchange of gunfire but the foreman’s actions ended the attack and no one else was wounded.

Cache Valley Hospital - May 16, 2014

Armed with two handguns, a man entered the Cache Valley Hospital emergency room and began making demands. After demanding to see a doctor, he racked the slide on one of his handguns and told hospital employees “someone is going to die today”. While a security guard tried to keep the gunman’s focus on him, two corrections officers who happened to be at the hospital on an unrelated matter engaged from another direction. The gunman was shot three times and no other people were harmed.

Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital - July 25, 2014

A patient at a psychiatric clinic killed his case worker at point blank range and then turned his gun on his doctor, Lee Silverman, striking him several times. Before the gunman could leave the office and continue his rampage, Dr. Silverman drew his own concealed handgun and pumped three rounds into the gunman’s torso, mortally wounding him. Police and hospital staff hail Dr. Silverman as a hero and credit him with saving dozens of lives.

[kallend 1,623]

jbscout2002

I don't recall seeing these high profile incidents in the media.

Pearl High School - Oct. 1, 1997

...

1997 eh?

The 30 or so gun murders EVERY DAY since 1997 (totaling roughly 162,000 altogether) don't make much of a media splash either, because they are so commonplace.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Yet another dead child.

www.ktnv.com/news/minor-found-dead-of-gunshot-wound-in-southwest-las-vegas

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

Just a thought, and this isn't meant to be disrespectful, but being the intellectual that you are, is it possible that you have grown acustomed to most of the people you interact with, simply taking your opinion at face value? I kind of get the impression that you rationalize the numbers, but are basically just firmly gun control oriented, so you chose to hold your ground recycling the latest rhetoric - If you can't daze the with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

10,000-12,000 people per year are murdered by guns, every year, however, it is estimated that guns are used to stop or deter "violent crime" (I don't know how many murders, but even conservative estimates say at least as often as they are used to kill) anywhere between 108,000 and 1.5 million times per year (depending on how pro or anti gun the survey is).

Despite my posting history, I would fully support any new gun laws, if they could be shown to have a plausible impact on gun violence. I would even go so far as to say that in spite of history supporting my argument, if any new evidence proved otherwise, I would start surrendering firearms.

I do not place the value of gun ownership above the value of human life. I suppose I could just be seeing the world through blurry lenses, but from what I've seen so far, I just don't get it.

There is a violence problem, but new gun laws won't fix it. It is like plugging a hole in the Hoover Dam with chewed bubble gum. It might make you feel like you stopped the leak, but there is a lot bigger problem going on there that needs to be addressed.

In Oregon there was a vet who was shot 7 times trying to stop the shooter. In the building next door, there was another vet, who was armed. Imagine the lives that could have been saved if one person in that room were armed, or if the shooter just happened to pick the other room that had the armed vet. If it is really about preservation of life, then how can one dispute this concept?

At this point, I'm not even trying to prove a point, argue, start crap or anything. I honestly want to understand the logic. It seems there is a set of data, numbers, that we all agree on, but then one side says, only if there were less guns the numbers go down. The other side says, only the right people with guns make the numbers go down.

On the anti gun side, is there a common belief that new laws on purchasing will reduce the 300 million guns already among the population?

Is this even that kind of discussion, or is it more of a, "if only there was a world free of guns" type of discussion?

*Edit* I guess I have my answer. I have obviously made an overestimation. I was expecting better.

[BartsDaddy 4]

kallend

***************

Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with toughest gun control laws is 3.72 per 100,000 residents


Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with least restrictive gun control laws is 4.91 per 100,000 residents

Last time I checked, 4.91 > 3.72

32% higher in fact.

yes
Or
1.19 per 100,000

Funny how numbers look different

So you wouldn't mind if your taxes were increased by by 32%.

Funny how numbers that negatively affect other people look different when they're applied to you.
Well if it went from 3.72 dollars per 100,000 earned to 4.91 dollars per 100,000 earned I wouldn't mind it.
It's amazing how some people think it should be compared to per 100,000
Until percentages sound better for them.

There are over 300,000,000 people in the USA. Not 100,000. So an increase of 1.19 per 100,000 due to lax gun laws works out to be an additional 3,500 people murdered EVERY YEAR in the USA.

Well there are a few,things wrong with that post kallend. First you assume the increase is solely due to laser gun laws, that is facts not in evidence. It could be for any number of reasons.
Second you assume the average of the 10 most restrictive is the lowest, nothing was brought up about the thirty states in the middle. They could be higher or lower nothing pointed that out one way or the other. You also assumed the average from the 10 least restrictive was the high mark. Nothing showing to prove that.
So even if we are to take the average from the 10 most restrictive and say that is the low, and take the averages from the 10 least restrictive as the high. And the other 30 as somewhere in between. Your calculations are still off.
The population of the top ten is all ready at 4.91 per 100,000 so you don't get to add them as an increase, the population of the lowest ten you do get to add a full 1.19 per 100,000. Now here is where it starts getting tricky, the 30 in the middle we have no starting data for so you don't know what to add to them.
I am sure you would not accept such shoddy work from your students, so why do you want to present it here. You know your figures are not accurate but you will continue to try and defend them.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[kallend 1,623]

BartsDaddy

******************

Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with toughest gun control laws is 3.72 per 100,000 residents


Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with least restrictive gun control laws is 4.91 per 100,000 residents

Last time I checked, 4.91 > 3.72

32% higher in fact.

yes
Or
1.19 per 100,000

Funny how numbers look different

So you wouldn't mind if your taxes were increased by by 32%.

Funny how numbers that negatively affect other people look different when they're applied to you.
Well if it went from 3.72 dollars per 100,000 earned to 4.91 dollars per 100,000 earned I wouldn't mind it.
It's amazing how some people think it should be compared to per 100,000
Until percentages sound better for them.

There are over 300,000,000 people in the USA. Not 100,000. So an increase of 1.19 per 100,000 due to lax gun laws works out to be an additional 3,500 people murdered EVERY YEAR in the USA.

Well there are a few,things wrong with that post kallend.

blah blah blah.

Simply using numbers posted here by jbscout and rushmc to try to make THEIR point.

Sucks that it backfired on them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BartsDaddy 4]

kallend

*********************

Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with toughest gun control laws is 3.72 per 100,000 residents


Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with least restrictive gun control laws is 4.91 per 100,000 residents

Last time I checked, 4.91 > 3.72

32% higher in fact.

yes
Or
1.19 per 100,000

Funny how numbers look different

So you wouldn't mind if your taxes were increased by by 32%.

Funny how numbers that negatively affect other people look different when they're applied to you.
Well if it went from 3.72 dollars per 100,000 earned to 4.91 dollars per 100,000 earned I wouldn't mind it.
It's amazing how some people think it should be compared to per 100,000
Until percentages sound better for them.

There are over 300,000,000 people in the USA. Not 100,000. So an increase of 1.19 per 100,000 due to lax gun laws works out to be an additional 3,500 people murdered EVERY YEAR in the USA.

Well there are a few,things wrong with that post kallend.

blah blah blah.

Simply using numbers posted here by jbscout and rushmc to try to make THEIR point.

Sucks that it backfired on them.

No sucks that you can't use the numbers right.
Honest question. Would you accept the same use of those numbers from one of your students? Because as pointed out the use of them on your part is flawed.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[kallend 1,623]

BartsDaddy

************************

Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with toughest gun control laws is 3.72 per 100,000 residents


Average gun murder rate for top 10 states with least restrictive gun control laws is 4.91 per 100,000 residents

Last time I checked, 4.91 > 3.72

32% higher in fact.

yes
Or
1.19 per 100,000

Funny how numbers look different

So you wouldn't mind if your taxes were increased by by 32%.

Funny how numbers that negatively affect other people look different when they're applied to you.
Well if it went from 3.72 dollars per 100,000 earned to 4.91 dollars per 100,000 earned I wouldn't mind it.
It's amazing how some people think it should be compared to per 100,000
Until percentages sound better for them.

There are over 300,000,000 people in the USA. Not 100,000. So an increase of 1.19 per 100,000 due to lax gun laws works out to be an additional 3,500 people murdered EVERY YEAR in the USA.

Well there are a few,things wrong with that post kallend.

blah blah blah.

Simply using numbers posted here by jbscout and rushmc to try to make THEIR point.

Sucks that it backfired on them.

No sucks that you can't use the numbers right.
Honest question. Would you accept the same use of those numbers from one of your students? Because as pointed out the use of them on your part is flawed.

How do you know that?

What we have is these numbers showing that states with stricter gun laws have fewer shooting murders than states with slack gun laws. And the difference between a sample of 20 states gives the figures I calculated.

Now, if you want a better analysis maybe you should write to your congressman and senators and tell them to repeal their NRA inspired prohibition on the CDC analyzing gun violence. Except, of course, the NRA is afraid of what the analysis might find.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BartsDaddy 4]

I understand you still don't want to admit to assuming too much and missuse of the provided stats. Just what I would have predicted. Along with not answering the question. You ask many people questions but refuse to answer questions.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[kallend 1,623]

BartsDaddy

I understand you still don't want to admit to assuming too much and missuse of the provided stats. Just what I would have predicted. Along with not answering the question. You ask many people questions but refuse to answer questions.

You need to read the thread more carefully. It was all about "context". rushmc tried to downplay the (32%) difference. I highlighted it.

If you want a better, more thorough analysis maybe you should write to your congressman and senators and tell them to repeal their NRA inspired prohibition on the CDC analyzing gun violence. Except, of course, the NRA is afraid of what the analysis might find.

Try again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

***I understand you still don't want to admit to assuming too much and missuse of the provided stats. Just what I would have predicted. Along with not answering the question. You ask many people questions but refuse to answer questions.

You need to read the thread more carefully. It was all about "context". rushmc tried to downplay the (32%) difference. I highlighted it.

If you want a better, more thorough analysis maybe you should write to your congressman and senators and tell them to repeal their NRA inspired prohibition on the CDC analyzing gun violence. Except, of course, the NRA is afraid of what the analysis might find.

Try again.

Or you can go back a couple posts to where I provided you with a link to the full CDC report. The report that you claim the CDC isn't allowed to do, but by executive order of the president on January 16, 2013, and $10 million to fund the research, was completed by June or July of 2013.

That report is there, and it says you are wrong, but you gloss over it like everything else and will just answer questions with questions, ignore them, change the subject, or start up another character assassination campaign.

It was presumptuous of me to assume you would entertain any rational discussion on the topic. I will disengage myself from your postings. Sorry to have bothered you.

[BartsDaddy 4]

kallend

***I understand you still don't want to admit to assuming too much and missuse of the provided stats. Just what I would have predicted. Along with not answering the question. You ask many people questions but refuse to answer questions.

You need to read the thread more carefully. It was all about "context". rushmc tried to downplay the (32%) difference. I highlighted it.

If you want a better, more thorough analysis maybe you should write to your congressman and senators and tell them to repeal their NRA inspired prohibition on the CDC analyzing gun violence. Except, of course, the NRA is afraid of what the analysis might find.

Try again.
How about answering the one question asked . you chicken shit.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[jakee 1,255]

Quote

I don't recall seeing these high profile incidents in the media.

Pearl High School - Oct. 1, 1997

Don't feel bad, I can't recall much that was in the media 18 years ago either.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?