8 yr old girl shot dead by 11yr old boy

[jbscout2002 1]

Yet another way to make arbitrary comparisons.

USA:
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 4.7
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 112.6
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/24 guns

Europe (all Eruopean countries totaled and averaged):
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 2.45
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 13.58
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/5.5 guns

[SkyDekker 1,129]

Quote

How about comparing to Europe then, with all the EU's praised gun control?

Homicide rate per 100,000 residents according to most recent UNODC reports:

Greenland 19.4
Russia 9.2
Lithuania 6.7
Moldova 6.5
Belarus 5.7
Estonia 5.0
Latvia 4.7
USA 4.7
Ukraine 4.3

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

[jbscout2002 1]

jbscout2002

Yet another way to make arbitrary comparisons.

USA:
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 4.7
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 112.6
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/24 guns

Europe (all Eruopean countries totaled and averaged):
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 2.45
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 13.58
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/5.5 guns

So to be fair to both sides, less guns do equal less gun murders, but less guns do not equal less murders at all.

I think the conspiracy theory that the NRA doesn't let anyone collect data is laughable. That is a convenient excuse for people who prefer not to publish their findings because they are not getting the results they want.

We have a problem with violence, gangs, drugs, and wackos, but all empirical data disproves gun control theories. We need to stop trying to prevent a single symptom and fight the disease.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then.

[jbscout2002 1]

Since it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that gun control will not reduce the rate of violent crime (studies support that it leads to an increase in crime), how about discussing the negative effects of gun control.

Remember, no positive effects because it does not stop or reduce anything, but aside from alienating people and violating their liberties, there is an economical impact as well.

Stubborn Facts: The Gun Industry Employs Twice as Many Americans as GM (and That’s Just the Beginning)
Mar. 26, 2013 8:59am Glenn Hall

Quote

Guns are big business in America – so big, in fact, that despite making vastly more firearms than any other nation, the U.S. also is the largest importer of handguns, rifles and shotguns.

Quote

All told, the firearms industry contributes more than $33 billion to the U.S. economy and supports about 220,000 jobs, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation. That’s more than double the North American payrolls of General Motors, which President Barack Obama called “a pillar of our economy” when he explained the decision to provide more taxpayer aid to help save the car maker in 2009.

Unlike GM, which employs 101,000 people in North America and 213,000 worldwide, the gun business is divided up among thousands of little companies with just a few big, recognizable brands like Ruger, Smith & Wesson and Remington. Big or small, companies making and selling firearms and ammunition provide jobs in every state.

Quote

Cuomo has said he doesn’t think New York’s new laws will have a “significant impact” on Remington Arms, which was founded in Ilion, New York.

The NSSF estimates that New York-based firearms businesses contribute more than $1.2 billion to the economy and employ almost 8,000 New Yorkers — jobs the state has fought to protect with $5.5 million in subsidies and grants since 2007, according to the Maine Center for Public Interest Reporting. Those subsidies were approved prior to Cuomo taking office last year.

Quote

As other states consider following New York’s lead on gun control and the U.S. Congress debates stricter federal measures  following the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, the desire to prevent such tragedies will have to be weighed against the popularity of firearms among Americans and the potential impact on an industry that has been growing steadily, even through the recent recession.

Quote

Creating Jobs
The number of employees in the gun industry grew by more than 10% from 2008 to 2010, adding about 17,000 jobs, according to the NSSF. During the same period, the overall number of Americans with jobs declined roughly 6%.

The economic value created by the firearms industry also is increasing steadily, from $19.2 billion in 2008 to $27.6 billion in 2010 and reaching a record $33 billion last year, according to NSSF calculations based on wages and salaries.

Federal and state governments also benefit directly from the $5 billion in tax revenues the industry provides, including $2.54 billion in business taxes and $460 million in excise taxes to the federal government, plus $2.1 million in state business taxes, according to the NSSF.

Quote

Private citizens are the driving force behind the booming gun business, with 47% of American adults confirming in an October 2011 survey that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property — the highest level in two decades.

Interest in hunting and shooting sports is growing, especially among younger generations, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which estimates that sales of firearms and ammunition for hunting and shooting sports rose to a record $6 billion last year.




Quote

"There are a lot of smaller manufacturers that support a very large base of suppliers,” McGuigan said. “These kinds of small, independent businesses are really the backbone of the U.S. economy, not the GMs, Wal-Marts and other big businesses.”
The relatively small-scale operations in the U.S. firearms industry are also highly sensitive to the regulatory and economic landscape, as well as pressure from their loyal customers who tend to be extremely opposed to increased gun control measures, McGuigan added.

Quote

Most Guns Made in U.S. Are Sold in U.S.
The disproportionate domestic demand for guns is another key difference between the firearms industry and many other American manufacturers.
Comparing again with GM, the carmaker sells only about 30% of its vehicles in the United States, while just about every gun made by a U.S. company is sold in America. Of the 6.54 million guns made in 2011 (up from 5.5 million in 2010), and only 296,888 were sold in export markets (up from 241,977 in 2010), ATF records show.
In all, almost 9.4 million new guns were sold in America in 2011 when domestic and imported firearms are combined, an increase from 8 million in 2010. After adding in resales of guns made in prior years, which the Small Arms Survey estimated at 1.5 million for 2010, the total number of guns sold in a given year gets close to 11 million.
The 25-year survey estimated that 2,228 U.S. companies produced more than 106 million firearms from 1986-2010.

[turtlespeed 212]

jbscout2002

***

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then.

The anti gunners have goal posts with V8 engines in them.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,129]

jbscout2002

***

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then.

Dude, Moldova is the European equivalent of Somalia.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

******

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then.

Dude, Moldova is the European equivalent of Somalia.

Detroit, St. Louis, Birmingham, Memphis, and Baltimore are the U.S. equivalents of Moldova.

[tkhayes 129]

Quote

I think the conspiracy theory that the NRA doesn't let anyone collect data is laughable. That is a convenient excuse for people who prefer not to publish their findings because they are not getting the results they want.

sorry if you think that collecting real data about things is not important. I mean that is after-all how we do medical research right? Just wing it, block the actual data and make policy decisions based on emotional inputs and the Constitution.....got it. [/extremesarcasm]

and the efforts are in fact being blocked. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why-the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two-years-ago/ and 1000 other articles.

If the evidence that you state continuously is that a gun filled society is better than a society with more gun restrictions, then the data that CDC, FBI and any other agency produces should support your beliefs structure and you should welcome that data.

And we are not spending an arm and a leg on it. We spend more on the flu every year - which also kills people, but we have a pretty fricking good idea of what is coming down the pipe every year with the influenza virus. Would sure be nice if we had some gun data too.

for starters, tracking guns by model/serial numbers, purchases and sales, stolen and lost, will help us learn how guns go from 'legal' to 'illegal' and allow some common sense rules that will close many loopholes.

Unless of course you are OK with the regular flow of guns to criminals.

A better universal background check and inclusion of ALL guns sales as well as the retention of that data, allows us to find out what demographic, what cultural, societal, what environmental and whatever other factors go into a decision that someone makes to buy a gun and better identifies problems.

Unless of course you are Ok with criminals and mentally unstable people buying guns pretty much 'outside the system', in other words, having no problem getting the weapons that they want when they want.

just a couple examples. there are plenty more.

But to say that we are already collecting the data or that data collection is not needed is totally laughable.

I mean we come up with all kinds of new cars, new phones, new airplanes, new ropads and bridges....all without any data collection at all.

We make budgets and start wars without any data collection, we fly planes and buy food, we develop new products on the fly - with no data collection at all.

I mean, every problem we ever solved was so intuitively obvious....that who needs data collection? Especially when 30000 people die every year from it, why would we ever need to collect anything? the solutions are so obvious. do nothing.

[jbscout2002 1]

I would feel safe in Samolia. No one bitches and moans if you walk around with an RPG or have a .50 cal welded to the top of your truck.

[SkyDekker 1,129]

jbscout2002

I would feel safe in Samolia. No one bitches and moans if you walk around with an RPG or have a .50 cal welded to the top of your truck.

Interesting comment from a US service member, considering the history there.

[jbscout2002 1]

Quote

for starters, tracking guns by model/serial numbers, purchases and sales, stolen and lost, will help us learn how guns go from 'legal' to 'illegal' and allow some common sense rules that will close many loopholes.

This already happens. It's actually a crime to fail to report lost or stolen guns.

Quote

Unless of course you are OK with the regular flow of guns to criminals.

My argument is focus on exactly this, rather than stopping non-criminals from buying one.

Quote

A better universal background check and inclusion of ALL guns sales as well as the retention of that data, allows us to find out what demographic, what cultural, societal, what environmental and whatever other factors go into a decision that someone makes to buy a gun and better identifies problems.

Background checks are done and data is retained. Your application has gender and race. The rest is no one else's business.

Quote

Unless of course you are Ok with criminals and mentally unstable people buying guns pretty much 'outside the system', in other words, having no problem getting the weapons that they want when they want.

I'm not ok with this at all, which is why I support the laws against it and support maximum punishment for people who break those laws.

[DanG 1]

I'm actually on your side on this issue, but your posts are so full of hyperbole and simply false information that you're making the gun advocate side look bad.

Quote

So to be fair to both sides, less guns do equal less gun murders, but less guns do not equal less murders at all.

If you're trying to use your European statistics to support this, you're wrong. You yourself cite that the murder rate in Europe (all murders) is lower than the US. Lying and twisting statistics doesn't help the cause.

Quote

I think the conspiracy theory that the NRA doesn't let anyone collect data is laughable. That is a convenient excuse for people who prefer not to publish their findings because they are not getting the results they want.

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's the law. The CDC is not allowd to study gun violence. By law. No conspiracy required.

Quote

We have a problem with violence, gangs, drugs, and wackos, but all empirical data disproves gun control theories. We need to stop trying to prevent a single symptom and fight the disease.

We do have a problem with violence, gangs, drugs, and wackos. I wouldn't say that all empirical evidence disproves gun control theory, because that simply isn't true. You can say, however, that many of the proposed gun control measures have no basis in statistics, so therefore are only theories with no supporting evidence.

And stop replying to yourself. This isn't a blogging site.

- Dan G

[jbscout2002 1]

1 homicide per 24 guns in the USA vs 1 homicide per 5.5 guns in Europe means that despite the much larger availability of guns in the USA, people in Europe are between 4 and 5 times more likely to kill each other with guns.

Not twisting anything. Just using the same numbers and comparisons other people are making and putting them into prospective

[DanG 1]

Murders per gun is a stupid statistic.

Especially if you are using all murders. Using gun murders per gun makes more sense, but that's not what you are doing.

By your methodology, if a small town with one gun had two knife murders last year, you would say they had two murders per gun, even if that gun was never fired. It's meaningless.

- Dan G

[jbscout2002 1]

And please show an untruthful or false post that I've made.

[jbscout2002 1]

DanG

Murders per gun is a stupid statistic.

Especially if you are using all murders. Using gun murders per gun makes more sense, but that's not what you are doing.

By your methodology, if a small town with one gun had two knife murders last year, you would say they had two murders per gun, even if that gun was never fired. It's meaningless.

Right. It is so much more meaningful when we take officer involved shootings and self defense shootings and roll them into the category on gun murder.

Then we take the 1% of gun violence that comes from psychopath mass shootings and push for gun control pretending like it will stop the other 99%

Then we same "England doesn't have handguns and they don't have as many handgun murders as us, so why can we follow them"

[gowlerk 1,915]

Just a few stats here on this wiki page including these gems.

Quote

Gun violence in the United States results in thousands of deaths and thousands more injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.[1][6]

In 2010, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were conducted using a firearm.[7] According to the FBI, in 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[8] 61% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides.[9] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[10] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[11]

I am especially impressed that only 1.3% percent of all deaths in the USA are gun related. A very small price to pay for the excitement and enjoyment of being allowed to treat the tools of war as personal toys. (Until one of your loved ones becomes one of these stats of course.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jbscout2002 1]

gowlerk

Just a few stats here on this wiki page including these gems.

Quote

Gun violence in the United States results in thousands of deaths and thousands more injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.[1][6]

In 2010, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were conducted using a firearm.[7] According to the FBI, in 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[8] 61% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides.[9] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[10] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[11]

I am especially impressed that only 1.3% percent of all deaths in the USA are gun related. A very small price to pay for the excitement and enjoyment of being allowed to treat the tools of war as personal toys. (Until one of your loved ones becomes one of these stats of course.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

This must be fake because I keep hearing it is against the law for the CDC to collect any info on gun related injuries or fatalities

[jbscout2002 1]

Firearm-related violent crime accounted for 2% of all victims of violent crime in 2012, a proportion that has remained stable over the past four years. - www.statcan.gc.ca

Looks like the USA is doing better than Canada at 1.3% vs 2%.

[gowlerk 1,915]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Quote

This must be fake because I keep hearing it is against the law for the CDC to collect any info on gun related injuries or fatalities

I don't know about that one way or another. The above link is to the CDC. Maybe they are restricted as to what they can collect. But they are saying that about 2/3 of all US homicides are firearm related.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jbscout2002 1]

Note* I just deleted a post because it was a dumb comparison

[gowlerk 1,915]

jbscout2002

Firearm-related violent crime accounted for 2% of all victims of violent crime in 2012, a proportion that has remained stable over the past four years. - www.statcan.gc.ca

Looks like the USA is doing better than Canada at 1.3% vs 2%.

The definition of violent crime is vague here. Bottom line is that per capita gun deaths in Canada are about 20% of what they are in the USA. Here is a link to a story about the CDC and why they don't research gun violence as much as they used to. Mostly it's because they are afraid of the NRA attacking them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why-the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two-years-ago/

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SkyDekker 1,129]

Quote

1 homicide per 24 guns in the USA vs 1 homicide per 5.5 guns in Europe means that despite the much larger availability of guns in the USA, people in Europe are between 4 and 5 times more likely to kill each other with guns.

Seriously. I get you are passionate about the subject. But give the stats you are posting some thought.

Your logic is way off.

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

Greenland 19.4
Russia 9.2
Lithuania 6.7
Moldova 6.5
Belarus 5.7
Estonia 5.0
Latvia 4.7
USA 4.7
Ukraine 4.3

Greenland and Russia are in Europe? Huh.

Aside from that, did you notice that all the countries you picked in that list are either fucked up ex-Warsaw Pact countries or fucked up ex-USSR countries? But hey, if that's who you think the USA's natural equivalents are...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?