The American police officer

[mcordell 2]

By "all those" how many incidents are you referring to? Obviously police don't arrest people for recording them far more than they did but I would be curious to know how many times this has happened. I have never arrested anyone for recording me nor have I ever seen it happen. I haven't even heard of it ever happening in either state I have been certified in.

I would hesitate to base an opinion off just a news article since I have seen firsthand how they report the "facts" of cases where I have firsthand knowledge of the actual circumstances and the media almost never gets it right. I can't say in those cases the officers were right either and I won't defend their actions just because they wear a badge to work. The truth is you don't know for sure unless you know the circumstances as well as the laws pertaining to the case in that jurisdiction. I would caution you against forming an opinion just because it is the opinion one media outlet wants you to form.

To more directly answer the question, I cannot speak to whether the officer was right or wrong without thoroughly investigating the circumstances so I don't know. I can only speak to what I do and what I have direct knowledge of.

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[mcordell 2]

wmw999

Something to consider is that police officers have to understand the average Joe's point of view at least as much as the average Joe has to understand the point of view of a police officer.

It's their job, for one thing.

Wendy P.

I understand the point of view of the citizens. That's pretty easy for me because I'm not above the citizens I serve. I have conversations with people in my community and I understand that the majority of people are good. I don't go to work with a suspicion of everyone I see or an "us vs. them" mentality. Unfortunately a lot of people are buying into the anti-police movement.

Not too long ago I was on patrol and clocked someone at 56 in a 40. I turned around to have a chat with them and they ducked into an apartment complex. When I pulled in I saw the car parked in a spot and the white male I observed driving it was walking away from it (refusing to look my direction) like nothing happened. Of course I stopped to talk to him and he was argumentative from the start. Told me he didn't have to provide me with ID because I had no right to stop him while he was walking. I insisted politely that he provide me with a driver license since I observed him driving and had stopped him for committing a traffic violation. I was very polite with the guy, but firmly insisted that he was required to provide his DL. He pulled out his wallet and handed me a plastic card from prepaid legal and told me to read it. It had some bullshit on it about how he knew his rights.....yada yada yada.

After I handcuffed him and placed him in my car for refusing to provide his driver license and insurance upon lawful request (both arrestable misdemeanor offenses) I found the driver license he was refusing to provide to me. He was suspended of course which added a third charge. Honestly I would have taken him to jail either way. I gave him several opportunities to comply and do the right thing and he refused. His "I know my rights" attitude caused him to commit two misdemeanor offenses, all because he was a dick.

It is one thing to know your rights but it's an entirely different thing to be a dick to police and refuse to do what you are told. If an officer is behaving unlawfully, I believe citizens should obey all commands and record the confrontation if possible. Deal with it later. If I were stopped and the officer was acting in an unlawful manner I would still follow all their commands and be non-confrontational because it really takes two people to escalate the situation most of the time. I have a VERY good understanding of the law and my rights but the side of the road is not the place to deal with it.

My point is, I do understand the viewpoint of the citizens. I truly do. The real problem though is that it is more and more common for those that are buying into the us vs them media bullshit to think they are exercising their rights when they are really just making things worse and causing unnecessary tension. You can see it all over youtube where people video officers and intentionally cause conflict just to try to get the officer reacting unreasonably. Just google "sovereign citizen" and see what you find. We have one of those loony morons in my jurisdiction and it's a two deputy response any time we go to his house because they are dangerous.

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[BIGUN 1,053]

Needless to say, the Police have a PR problem. This one "Act of Kindness" has touched three communities. More like this need be done OR knowing how much you guys do FOR your communities need to have better relations with the media.

Law Enforcement Officers Honor Glenpool Boy At Funeral

Thanks to those guys.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

I can't give specific numbers. I just remember a rash of them in the media.

Here are a few found with a quick search. Some are the story after the city or department settled the resulting lawsuit:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-pays-man-for-video-recording-arrest-20141224-story.html

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2013/12/oregon-state-trooper-tells-citizen-illegal-video-record-public/

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/09/oregon-man-arrested-recording-militarized-police-raid-neighborhood/

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/PPR55/copwatching55.html

Quick edit to add:

Google search for "charged with wiretapping for vidoe recording police."
Usually they are in a "two party recording law" state and they charge the person with the audio recording part.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1TSNO_enUS478US478&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=charged%20with%20wiretapping%20for%20video%20recording%20police

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mcordell 2]

If there was a lawsuit and the city settled then we can assume that either the actions of the officers were wrong, or the city decided litigation would be more expensive than a small settlement and they settled rather than spending money defending themselves. I know where I work it's not a crime to record officers and this is a one party state when it comes to audio recording.

I wonder, if they charged them for recording without the consent of both parties then does the department not have dash cams in their patrol vehicles? If so then it would seem they are using a "do as I say, not as I do" approach. I'm not ok with that. I think if things are recorded then it weeds out the bad officers when it is easier to see first hand that they are doing things they shouldn't be doing. It's not fiscally feasible, but I wish body cams were mandatory and that all encounters had to be recorded all the time. I have no problem being recorded doing my job and I pride myself on doing so with the utmost professionalism. I would rather work only with officers who do the same.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mcordell 2]

We do have a PR problem. Some of that is because the majority of us do stuff for our community all the time and to us it doesn't seem "above and beyond" or newsworthy. When doing good in your community is the modus operandi, you don't take the time to point it out to people. When you see news articles like this, it is usually because someone outside the agency notified the media.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mpohl 1]

Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

You and your ilk shoot more bullets in a single incident than all cops in Germany combined in a year. I am talking like 80-100 bullets. You surely must be aware of the statistics that I am referring to.

Of course, cops in the US are a much more murderous bunch compared to other Western police forces. Again, look up the statistics.

Thugs in uniform!
Let's hope they get your ABQ pals for murder.

mcordell

***Something to consider is that police officers have to understand the average Joe's point of view at least as much as the average Joe has to understand the point of view of a police officer.

It's their job, for one thing.

Wendy P.

I understand the point of view of the citizens. That's pretty easy for me because I'm not above the citizens I serve. I have conversations with people in my community and I understand that the majority of people are good. I don't go to work with a suspicion of everyone I see or an "us vs. them" mentality. Unfortunately a lot of people are buying into the anti-police movement.

Not too long ago I was on patrol and clocked someone at 56 in a 40. I turned around to have a chat with them and they ducked into an apartment complex. When I pulled in I saw the car parked in a spot and the white male I observed driving it was walking away from it (refusing to look my direction) like nothing happened. Of course I stopped to talk to him and he was argumentative from the start. Told me he didn't have to provide me with ID because I had no right to stop him while he was walking. I insisted politely that he provide me with a driver license since I observed him driving and had stopped him for committing a traffic violation. I was very polite with the guy, but firmly insisted that he was required to provide his DL. He pulled out his wallet and handed me a plastic card from prepaid legal and told me to read it. It had some bullshit on it about how he knew his rights.....yada yada yada.

After I handcuffed him and placed him in my car for refusing to provide his driver license and insurance upon lawful request (both arrestable misdemeanor offenses) I found the driver license he was refusing to provide to me. He was suspended of course which added a third charge. Honestly I would have taken him to jail either way. I gave him several opportunities to comply and do the right thing and he refused. His "I know my rights" attitude caused him to commit two misdemeanor offenses, all because he was a dick.

It is one thing to know your rights but it's an entirely different thing to be a dick to police and refuse to do what you are told. If an officer is behaving unlawfully, I believe citizens should obey all commands and record the confrontation if possible. Deal with it later. If I were stopped and the officer was acting in an unlawful manner I would still follow all their commands and be non-confrontational because it really takes two people to escalate the situation most of the time. I have a VERY good understanding of the law and my rights but the side of the road is not the place to deal with it.

My point is, I do understand the viewpoint of the citizens. I truly do. The real problem though is that it is more and more common for those that are buying into the us vs them media bullshit to think they are exercising their rights when they are really just making things worse and causing unnecessary tension. You can see it all over youtube where people video officers and intentionally cause conflict just to try to get the officer reacting unreasonably. Just google "sovereign citizen" and see what you find. We have one of those loony morons in my jurisdiction and it's a two deputy response any time we go to his house because they are dangerous.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

You and your ilk shoot more bullets in a single incident than all cops in Germany combined in a year. I am talking like 80-100 bullets. You surely must be aware of the statistics that I am referring to.

Of course, cops in the US are a much more murderous bunch compared to other Western police forces. Again, look up the statistics.

Thugs in uniform!
Let's hope they get your ABQ pals for murder.

Yes let the hate flow through you...... Honestly holy shit is my reaction to this statement.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[mcordell 2]

mpohl

Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

You and your ilk shoot more bullets in a single incident than all cops in Germany combined in a year. I am talking like 80-100 bullets. You surely must be aware of the statistics that I am referring to.

Of course, cops in the US are a much more murderous bunch compared to other Western police forces. Again, look up the statistics.

Thugs in uniform!
Let's hope they get your ABQ pals for murder.

Hmmmm. I don't recall ever killing anyone in my 11 years (and counting) in this job. In fact in the 4 agencies I have worked for, nobody I have ever worked with has killed someone in the course of their job and that equates to hundreds of officers over a combined hundreds of years of experience. I have worked with officers that were shot during their career though. I have been shot at during mine and yet none of us have taken a single life. I know one officer who shot someone that attacked him with a knife. The suspect died. I never worked with him and never worked for the same agency but I do know him. He fired one shot and suffered several cuts to his hands while actively defending himself. I guess I don't see the murderous nature you are referring to.

I sincerely wish you the best though and would gladly risk my life to protect you if you called in your time of need. I don't know you but I support your right to freedom of speech. That's why I served in the Army Infantry and why I work law enforcement. This is a great country we have here.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[BIGUN 1,053]

mcordell

We do have a PR problem. Some of that is because the majority of us do stuff for our community all the time and to us it doesn't seem "above and beyond" or newsworthy. When doing good in your community is the modus operandi, you don't take the time to point it out to people. When you see news articles like this, it is usually because someone outside the agency notified the media.

But most PD's have a Media Relations Officer - and it's been my experience from siting on the Chamber and several other community councils; that they don't show unless we think they need to be there. It's an open forum. Make the positives you do be seen.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mpohl 1]

I appreciate your thoughtful comment.

Nevertheless, somebody must be doing the killing! And we are talking hundreds upon hundreds, probably thousands of innocent citizens each year.

Add to that, for example, the PR disaster that is the NYPD; and you'll understand why a substantial portion of the citizenry begins to see police and LE as an occupying force.

And yes, your military background supports my statement. You were trained as a soldier: to combat, to kill, to occupy. That's your training. Except, WE don't like that and the attitude that comes with it.

mcordell

***
Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

You and your ilk shoot more bullets in a single incident than all cops in Germany combined in a year. I am talking like 80-100 bullets. You surely must be aware of the statistics that I am referring to.

Of course, cops in the US are a much more murderous bunch compared to other Western police forces. Again, look up the statistics.

Thugs in uniform!
Let's hope they get your ABQ pals for murder.

Hmmmm. I don't recall ever killing anyone in my 11 years (and counting) in this job. In fact in the 4 agencies I have worked for, nobody I have ever worked with has killed someone in the course of their job and that equates to hundreds of officers over a combined hundreds of years of experience. I have worked with officers that were shot during their career though. I have been shot at during mine and yet none of us have taken a single life. I know one officer who shot someone that attacked him with a knife. The suspect died. I never worked with him and never worked for the same agency but I do know him. He fired one shot and suffered several cuts to his hands while actively defending himself. I guess I don't see the murderous nature you are referring to.

I sincerely wish you the best though and would gladly risk my life to protect you if you called in your time of need. I don't know you but I support your right to freedom of speech. That's why I served in the Army Infantry and why I work law enforcement. This is a great country we have here.

[billvon 2,400]

>Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

How many US cops do you know personally?

>You and your ilk

I have found that you can pretty much stop reading any post here after that sort of statement. It is a declaration that what follows will be unsubstantiated pigeonholing.

[mcordell 2]

yea but a lot of smaller departments don't have those resources. The department I work for now doesn't have any public relations of any sort and command staff doesn't do it. The flip side is, we are part of our community. We live in our community and participate in events. People know us in the areas we work as both deputies and as people. I am the rare exception in that I don't live in the county where I work but I'm running for sheriff in the county where I live at the next election and I do know people here. People know me and my family. People know where I live. I'm not just some guy that shows up to be law enforcement over a community and then disappears after my shift. I like being part of the community I serve.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

innocent citizens each year

You mean a couple dozen innocents are killed per year, yes some even murdered outright. Pls go inform yourself the others were shooting at the cops, holding hostages, ruining cops over with cars, trying to kill other citizens or died from accidental things like tazers, bean bags, ran over, or OC spray. I have done the research and posted my results if you care to search for it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[mcordell 2]

mpohl

And yes, your military background supports my statement. You were trained as a soldier: to combat, to kill, to occupy. That's your training. Except, WE don't like that and the attitude that comes with it.

Referencing all you know about me, which is limited to my posts here, what part of my attitude exactly do you not like?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[BIGUN 1,053]

mcordell

yea but a lot of smaller departments don't have those resources. The department I work for now doesn't have any public relations of any sort and command staff doesn't do it. The flip side is, we are part of our community. We live in our community and participate in events. People know us in the areas we work as both deputies and as people. I am the rare exception in that I don't live in the county where I work but I'm running for sheriff in the county where I live at the next election and I do know people here. People know me and my family. People know where I live. I'm not just some guy that shows up to be law enforcement over a community and then disappears after my shift. I like being part of the community I serve.

I understand. Good luck on the election!

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mcordell 2]

Here's your murderous bunch after the fact...

http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lawofficer.com%2Fvideo%2Fnews%2Fmontana-officer-overcome-after&h=ZAQGH9ohY&enc=AZMoZLmtljBduuCIbOGBv5Ugl-1aTRPYHY6uI_iaANUlcvq7RCYhRGe-RQDhYMY4kxRxEpXJvShM5mt4iY6IUzg2a5vvC9QCvJuyQ2YN5KtnlWUA6KNo40EelB4UuP9xvVeNuHlfc3dfc1wsBJcAWLp9&s=1

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[normiss 622]

Repaired clicky

[skycop 0]

Quote

Of course, all of this is self-aggrandizing US Cop bullshit.

You and your ilk shoot more bullets in a single incident than all cops in Germany combined in a year. I am talking like 80-100 bullets. You surely must be aware of the statistics that I am referring to.

Of course, cops in the US are a much more murderous bunch compared to other Western police forces. Again, look up the statistics.

Thugs in uniform!
Let's hope they get your ABQ pals for murder.

When an officer gives a well thought out response, giving actual examples, including reasonable examples of things he doesn't like.

This is the response that eventually comes, an angry profanity laced tirade by an angry person who has no real facts. I know, you've seen it on the internet so it makes you an expert.

American police deal with an armed populace daily, there are millions of police contacts yearly, including thousands of armed confrontations no one ever reads about.

I've actually talked with European cops, they all think we are crazy for what we have to deal with and the rules we have.

Look past your keyboard and monitor, perhaps then things could be in perspective.
Have a nice day!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 622]

Your responses and explanations as well as your attitude is exactly what the population needs to hear.
We are getting way too many cops with anger issues simply putting all the blame on the citizens.
This problem is on both sides.

I really appreciate your input.

Thanks.

[skycop 0]

Quote

But most PD's have a Media Relations Officer - and it's been my experience from siting on the Chamber and several other community councils; that they don't show unless we think they need to be there. It's an open forum. Make the positives you do be seen.

The media and police have competing interests, there are very effective PIO's (Public Information Officers), and some not so effective ones. The main problem is daily police work doesn't sell ad space, air time, or newspapers.

A good PIO will contact the media constantly with good things the PD is doing, but those daily good-doings end up on the back page or a 30 second blurb on the news. Have an officer make a mistake or be accused of misconduct and that is front page for weeks.

The saying is very true, "if it bleeds, it leads"...........

The video I posted is a PERFECT example, this should have led on all the major 24hour news cycle networks.
"White cop shields black suspect from gunfire" Did anyone see that?
Nope, and you never will, because that would be constructive and conciliatory.

That's why I posted it, because I knew it would never gain traction in the 24 hour news cycle, it's not cynical enough.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[champu 1]

I think something that PIOs could do, or maybe just do better, in the "leading and bleeding" news stories is to be clear what a determination that a shooting was justified means, and what it does not mean.

If the event will be studied, if the policies that were all followed (hence the "justified" determination) are to be reviewed, etc. then the PIO needs to do what they can to make that the conversation. I think the media always wants to make it about "is this cop's head gonna roll or not" and then when the answer is most always "no" people think that's the end of it unless they go out and do something terrible like what happened in New York.

[skycop 0]

Welcome to the wonderful world of law enforcement Catch-22's

One thing a PIO can't really do is comment on policy issues immediately or even closely following deadly force incidents. The issue becomes a legal/liability minefield, there is a high likelihood of civil litigation even if the use of force is 100% justified. All a PIO can provide are basic undisputed facts, many times those are in dispute initially.

Initial media reports can be wildly inaccurate, or in some cases made up based on inferences or initial radio traffic.

For good reason the public wants answers now, but in many cases those answers are not immediately available. If a PIO says something inaccurate or premature, the effects can be long ranging in both the media and legal sense. They can also have unforeseen impact on an ongoing investigation.

Our instant gratification society and 24 news cycle often clash with the realities of a properly conducted investigation. That's what I meant by competing interests, it's incredibly difficult to satisfy the current climate of instant information.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Andy9o8 0]

skycop

Welcome to the wonderful world of law enforcement Catch-22's

One thing a PIO can't really do is comment on policy issues immediately or even closely following deadly force incidents. The issue becomes a legal/liability minefield, there is a high likelihood of civil litigation even if the use of force is 100% justified. All a PIO can provide are basic undisputed facts, many times those are in dispute initially.

Initial media reports can be wildly inaccurate, or in some cases made up based on inferences or initial radio traffic.

For good reason the public wants answers now, but in many cases those answers are not immediately available. If a PIO says something inaccurate or premature, the effects can be long ranging in both the media and legal sense. They can also have unforeseen impact on an ongoing investigation.

Our instant gratification society and 24 news cycle often clash with the realities of a properly conducted investigation. That's what I meant by competing interests, it's incredibly difficult to satisfy the current climate of instant information.

You raise valid points.... but the competing interest is that in the absence of a capable PIO, the result is often either departmental stonewalling or - sometimes even worse - a supervisory-level LEO who might be a very good cop but is a lousy public communicator, and winds up coming across poorly.

The result of either of those can be public outrage, or even insurrection. On balance, I'd still go with a well-trained and capable PIO, as well as a policy of timely and clear communication.

I hate analogies of anything to skydiving, but here's one anyway: after a serious incident, the difference between a DZ (or a USPA!) that stonewalls, versus a DZ that clearly and timely communicates substantive info to the public. We've all seen the result in perception from each, haven't we?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

You raise valid points.... but the competing interest is that in the absence of a capable PIO, the result is often either departmental stonewalling

When faced with a possible crime, what does the ACLU, any lawyer, and anticop group suggest you do? STFU and call your lawyer. In a police involved shooting they are just doing the same thing. Why advocate anyone blow up their case with a PIO that says stupid shit too early and seals the court of public opinions thoughts on the incident?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,