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melch

Shooting in Paris

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For the most part I agree with that perspective, yet that's not what you said either.
"A surprise attack by people willing to die for their cause will not be deterred in any way, shape, or form by even the best trained security forces on the planet. "

"Security forces" is not an individual.

I also think if they know there might be a risk of us taking them out before they do their acts of terror, some might think twice.
I would expect your assessment to fairly accurate though...but we sure would appreciate the sacrificial soul that did take out the first one or two.
Well, some of us would I suppose.

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I didn't catch all tour debate here but i felt sad reading it.
Our democracy has been attacked today and the only answer is to stand together, whatever you believe in, against the savagery.
It seems like one of the cop that has been killed is mulsim, his firstname is Ahmed, one of the name of the prophet. Mulsims are and will be vicitims too.
and to be noticed, for thoses who thinks carrying Gun may have prevented this manslaughter, in the middle of the room where journalists were having their meeting, their was one armed cops. He is one the victims too and had no time to counter attack.

We are sad
I am not afraid of thoses cowards, i hope we will be Millions, tonight we were thousand saying "We are not afraid".

This is Place de la République, we were thousands
ça passe ou ça frotte

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Darius11

I am betting the shooters are converts.



I wonder if there are any statistics gathered on international terrorism available to the public such as us that gives percentages of converts vs non-converts being used as terrorists?

Would be an interesting stat to find.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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normiss

"Security forces" is not an individual.



I specifically used that phrase in preparation of a perfect example of one of the best trained security forces on the planet who didn't stop a lone gunman clearly willing to die; the secret service vs John Hinkly Jr.

The only thing that stopped Hinkly was him running out of bullets. The secret service didn't get off a single shot.

Do you really believe you're better at protecting yourself in the workplace against a multiple terrorist attack with whatever you might be carrying than the Secret Service was against a single individual?

Really?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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normiss

The we're wasting money on police forces, aren't we?



Right, because this is the only thing the police are for.

Just think, there's never been a terrorist attack in my home town yet all this time we've been paying for a police station and everything. I guess they've just been sitting around playing cards and picking up their paychecks all this time.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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quade

***We'll just have to wait out criminals and terrorists I guess.



Two COMPLETELY different subjects.

I have repeatedly and said for years self defense is fine. However, there is a world of difference between a guy climbing in a bedroom window and a group of terrorists with automatic weapons.

As an individual, you have a -chance- of defending yourself with a gun at home and I am all for allowing you to do that. Go for it. It's your right and possibly your duty.

You, as an individual, have next to a zero chance of changing the outcome of a terrorist attack like we're talking about here.

I think I would agree & disagree with you in regards to your last statement. I agree if it were me on the street armed with a Hand gun I would quite possible been able to engage the individuals armed with fully automatic rifles but quite possibly have been killed in doing so.

If I where with a certain friend who himself being armed with a hand gun and facing the same individuals...I'm very certain based on his extensive training would have killed both quickly with less than five shots.

So I suppose you are correct that "You" being the main subject, I being a good citizen very likely would not have gone home to my wife. "But I be a HERO" for at least having dared to try.:P

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"You" being used as an impersonal pronoun not indicating any particular individual.

While there may be some highly trained ex special ops person reading this forum, the vast majority, even the highly trained gun enthusiasts are not capable of making any appreciable difference.

To think they can is wildly Walter Mitty.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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HighJB

I didn't catch all tour debate here but i felt sad reading it.
Our democracy has been attacked today and the only answer is to stand together, whatever you believe in, against the savagery.
It seems like one of the cop that has been killed is mulsim, his firstname is Ahmed, one of the name of the prophet. Mulsims are and will be vicitims too.
and to be noticed, for thoses who thinks carrying Gun may have prevented this manslaughter, in the middle of the room where journalists were having their meeting, their was one armed cops. He is one the victims too and had no time to counter attack.

We are sad
I am not afraid of thoses cowards, i hope we will be Millions, tonight we were thousand saying "We are not afraid".

This is Place de la République, we were thousands



My condolences to you and your fellow countrymen and women.

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Do you think that surprise, opportunity, and luck only work for the terrorists?
That's why I mentioned a person in a position to take one or more out could clearly lose their life, but it could slow things down or stop them.

I would prefer that option over cowering and awaiting murder.

All I'm saying is I want the option for MY life. That should be a right of every human on the planet. Self defense.
Without it, we all lose IMO. Once all bad guys know we have no means of protection...shit gets real with a quickness.
Boko Haram?

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[Reply]I have equal disdain for all religious extremists, I don't cherry pick.



I don't have equal disdain for all religions. As much as you can bring up the Irish Catholics, Sinn Fein isn't really representative of the religion as a whole. Note that it was "Irish" catholics.

Sure, 500 years ago, the Catholic Church was out there killing people. To hold the past wrongs of the Catholic Church against it would be like looking at an Englishman in the US as some scoundrel who would have an American patriot drawn and quartered. It's ridiculous.

Christian abortion clinic bomber? When was the last one of those? We have more environmentalists blowing shit up and setting fire to things than Christians. But I don't think that environmentalists, as religiously zealous as they are, are a particular threat. Animal Rights wackos will do their crap. But it doesn't mean a vegan is bad.

Problem is there are hundreds of terrorist attacks every year. And the vast majority are performed by practitioners of a particular religion. Not content with merely killing other religions, the Sunnis and Shiites are also happy killing each other.

I'm not sure whether you are aware of ISIS. Ever hear of a "fatwa?" Or a "jihad?" The editor of the magazine also had disdain for all religion. He held not favorites and ulled no punches. Catholics, Jews. Christians. But it is the Muslim that will kill and did.

Not all Muslims, mind you. But statistically speaking, which religion has done more of the killing people in its name this past, oh, 30 years?


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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normiss

All I'm saying is I want the option for MY life.



Oh, you can have the option. Go for it if you can.

Just don't think you're actually going to change the outcome of a terrorist attack such as this, because you (and this time it's a personal pronoun) almost certainly won't. 99.999% of the most highly trained individuals on the planet wouldn't be able to.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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[Reply]Oh, you can have the option. Go for it if you can.

Just don't think you're actually going to change the outcome of a terrorist attack such as this, because you (and this time it's a personal pronoun) almost certainly won't. 99.999% of the most highly trained individuals on the planet wouldn't be able to.



[Url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93[/url]

Kinda weird what happens when people become aware that they are in a fight to the death. Sure, they all ended up dying. But there can be little doubt that they changed the outcome of the event.

There's even a memorial to them. A movie made about those passengers. "Let's roll." They fought back. They died. And they saved hundreds or perhaps thousands of lives.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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normiss

Why do you support people under attack being harmed and unable to defend themselves?
Would you allow someone to assault you without defending yourself?
:S



The data show unequivocally that the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack is minimal compared to the risk of being shot with your own gun by a family member.

The data show that gun owners are more likely to be shot than non-owners.

The data show that you are more likely to be shot dead in the USA than in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Australia, Netherlands, Sweden, or any other western nation with lower rates of gun ownership than the US.

Belief that owning a gun makes you safer is right up there with belief in Odin, Zeus, Santa or the FSM.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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quade

***All I'm saying is I want the option for MY life.



Oh, you can have the option. Go for it if you can.

Just don't think you're actually going to change the outcome of a terrorist attack such as this, because you (and this time it's a personal pronoun) almost certainly won't. 99.999% of the most highly trained individuals on the planet wouldn't be able to. I didn't know you were the all knowing Quade..I think you have been taking a few to many magic pills and now you think your a God unto yourself to "KNOW" all things. The outcome would have been different, from what I have read, if one person had refused to let them in. "Cartoonist Corine Rey, aka “Coco,” told the weekly Humanité that she let the men inside the building of Charlie Hebdo after being ordered at gunpoint." If she had said no and gave her life instead of letting them in one person could have made a difference so you are 100% wrong...which isn't all that rare of an occurrence for the all knowing Quade

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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lawrocket

[Reply]I have equal disdain for all religious extremists, I don't cherry pick.



I don't have equal disdain for all religions. As much as you can bring up the Irish Catholics, Sinn Fein isn't really representative of the religion as a whole. Note that it was "Irish" catholics.



Why did you omit the word "extremists"? People may believe whatever gets them through the day, right up until the time the belief starts interfering with (including killing and injuring) others. Right now it's primarily Muslims in the western world, but we've also seen Jewish, Hindu and Christian terrorists in my lifetime. A pox on all their houses.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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catfishhunter

If she had said no and gave her life instead of letting them in one person could have made a difference...



No. She'd be dead and they still would have gotten in.

Don't be silly.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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kallend

***[Reply]I have equal disdain for all religious extremists, I don't cherry pick.



I don't have equal disdain for all religions. As much as you can bring up the Irish Catholics, Sinn Fein isn't really representative of the religion as a whole. Note that it was "Irish" catholics.



Why did you omit the word "extremists"? People may believe whatever gets them through the day, right up until the time the belief starts interfering with (including killing and injuring) others. Right now it's primarily Muslims in the western world, but we've also seen Jewish, Hindu and Christian terrorists in my lifetime. A pox on all their houses.

Valid point. I did omit it.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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NBC is reporting:

One of the suspects in the Paris attack on Charlie Hebdo magazine has been killed and the two others are in custody, two senior U.S. counterterrorism officials told NBC News.

Authorities earlier had identified the three men as Said Kouachi and Cherif Kouachi, both French and in their early 30s, and 18-year-old Hamyd Mourad, whose nationality wasn't immediately clear.

One of the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to publicly discuss the investigation, told The Associated Press that the men were linked to a Yemeni terrorist network. Cherif Kouachi was convicted in 2008 of terrorism charges for helping funnel fighters to Iraq's insurgency and sentenced to 18 months in prison.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Quote

No. She'd be dead and they still would have gotten in.

Don't be silly.



Yea your so right quade that shot or many that they used to shoot her could have in no way alerted the armed security guard that was in the room where everyone got shot, preparing everyone to barricade or shoot back

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lawrocket

There's even a memorial to them. A movie made about those passengers. "Let's roll." They fought back. They died. And they saved hundreds or perhaps thousands of lives.



And it was in no way like this situation. Not in the least.

While it is true there were courageous passengers who stood up to the terrorists and charged the cabin, the only thing the Flight 93 terrorists had going for them was passenger fear; not bullets.

If the Flight 93 terrorists had automatic weaponry, they would not have been stopped by the passengers who decided to storm the cabin.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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kallend

Violence is what you get when violence is touted as the solution to problems. That applies to terrorists, cops, criminals, and scared Floridians "standing their ground".



You are equating SYG to Terrorism?:o
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Haven't heard from this guy for a while;
Salman Rushdie issues statement on Paris shooting:

Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. ‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion.’ Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.

Source: http://www.salon.com/2015/01/07/religion_is_a_medieval_form_of_unreason_salman_rushdie_responds_to_paris_attacks/
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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kallend

***Why do you support people under attack being harmed and unable to defend themselves?
Would you allow someone to assault you without defending yourself?
:S



The data show unequivocally that the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack is minimal compared to the risk of being shot with your own gun by a family member.

The data show that gun owners are more likely to be shot than non-owners.

The data show that you are more likely to be shot dead in the USA than in France, Germany, Italy, UK, Australia, Netherlands, Sweden, or any other western nation with lower rates of gun ownership than the US.

Belief that owning a gun makes you safer is right up there with belief in Odin, Zeus, Santa or the FSM.

I couldn't help but notice you didn't answer his questions.

What is the data of being armed during a terrorist attack.

Lets take the Nidal Malik Hasan Terrorist attack as an example. What data do you surmise from that?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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