The Hobby Lobby case

[Croc 0]

In 1970, while I was a cadet at West Point, attendance at church or temple on Sunday was mandatory. The choices were Protestant, Catholic or Jewish. That meant the Thai cadet exchange student in my company who was Buddhist, attended the Protestant church. Prayers were said at every meal and sports teams prayed to Jesus for victory.

Are you saying the situation at the Academies now is more religious than that? No way.

One of the largest buildings at the USMA is the cadet chapel--an unabashedly Christian church. Do you suppose that it could be built today?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[funjumper101 15]

Croc

In 1970, while I was a cadet at West Point, attendance at church or temple on Sunday was mandatory. The choices were Protestant, Catholic or Jewish. That meant the Thai cadet exchange student in my company who was Buddhist, attended the Protestant church. Prayers were said at every meal and sports teams prayed to Jesus for victory.

Are you saying the situation at the Academies now is more religious than that? No way.

One of the largest buildings at the USMA is the cadet chapel--an unabashedly Christian church. Do you suppose that it could be built today?

I certainly hope not.

It might be worthwhile for the Freedom from Religion folks to litigate to prevent any federal or state funding from being used to support the religious facilities on US Military bases. Why should MY tax dollars be used to support religious facilities? That it is happening now violates the principles of separation of church and state.

Ending the tax breaks to religious organizations is another thing that needs to happen.

[turtlespeed 212]

funjumper101

Ending the tax breaks to religious organizations is another thing that needs to happen.

End -ALL- non profits.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

Chaplins and chapels have always been a part of the military. For a country that sends young people off to war and get killed, it's comforting. That, however, isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the officers and non-coms who have taken it well beyond that and incorporated it into things it has no business being incorporated into.

If you do even the briefest amount of research you'll see what I'm talking about at the USAF Academy in recent years specifically, but it is pervasive though out the entire government in ways that were unimaginable 30 years ago.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=USAFA+religion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

BIGUN

Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.
They believe in your right - not to believe.
You could extend the same courtesy and make your points without throwing rocks.

Would it bother you to know that Hobby Lobby used to have insurance that had no problem to cover that which now all of a sudden they find to be against their religion.. Not that GOP supporters like Hobby Lobby do not have an overabundance of hypocrisy when it comes to the black guy or anything he has tried to do.

[Croc 0]

Well, maybe things are worse. Nevertheless some of the articles refute what you say. One in particular seems to be saying the opposite--that cadets cannot express religious sentiments, quite the opposite of required participation in religious services. I don't think Ronald Regan can be blamed for that.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[BIGUN 1,053]

Amazon

***Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.
They believe in your right - not to believe.
You could extend the same courtesy and make your points without throwing rocks.

Would it bother you to know that Hobby Lobby used to have insurance that had no problem to cover that which now all of a sudden they find to be against their religion.. Not that GOP supporters like Hobby Lobby do not have an overabundance of hypocrisy when it comes to the black guy or anything he has tried to do.

You'll have to cite a source for me, cause Google ain't finding that.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kallend 1,625]

BIGUN

******Several major corporations have espoused their religious beliefs as part of their corporate values long before 2010.

In the end, I think they will be forced to accept the ACA in its entirety.
In the end, I know that if forced to abandon their value system; they will close their doors.

Just because you don't believe in God; does not make everyone else ignorant.
They believe in your right - not to believe.
You could extend the same courtesy and make your points without throwing rocks.

Would it bother you to know that Hobby Lobby used to have insurance that had no problem to cover that which now all of a sudden they find to be against their religion.. Not that GOP supporters like Hobby Lobby do not have an overabundance of hypocrisy when it comes to the black guy or anything he has tried to do.

You'll have to cite a source for me, cause Google ain't finding that.



What Amazon wrote is correct, it is stated in the Hobby Lobby brief to the Supreme Court. Hobby Lobby WAS providing that coverage prior to the ACA, they admit it.

Hypocrites!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

billvon

>Do corporations have religious beliefs?

They can; they can have any beliefs they want.

So you think religion is a corporate rather than a strictly personal thing.

Where do corporations pray? Do corporations have a soul? An afterlife? Can Jesus save a corporation? When RonD goes to heaven will he find, say, Montgomery Ward stores there, and Borders, Blockbuster, TWA, and PanAm?

I'm sure our attorneys will chime in, but my recollection of corporate law is that companies are legal entities distinct from their owners. If someone trips and falls in a Hobby Lobby store, the Green family isn’t liable. So why is the Green family's religion transferable to Hobby Lobby?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[funjumper101 15]

billvon

>Do corporations have religious beliefs?

They can; they can have any beliefs they want.

>Is ignorance a bona fide religious belief?

How does this stand they take equate to ignorance? Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance.

I think corporations can have any religious beliefs they like. But when those religious beliefs go contrary to public interest and the rights of employees, they generally cannot impose those beliefs on them, or use their employment policies to guarantee adherence to them. (Refusing to hire blacks, refusing to cover vaccinations or refusing to allow women maternity leave are just some examples.)

Corporations are not people. Corporations do not have belly buttons. The can not be put in jail. They can not be executed by hanging, lethal injection, firing squads, or any other means. These FACTS make the assertion that they have the ability to have "religious beliefs" patently ridiculous.

Corporations do not have free will. They have no ability to make up a "mind" about an issue, or change that "mind" when knowledge, education, or a new understanding of facts and circumstances occurs.

The Hobby Lobby suit is 100% political. It is a manifestation of the hatred fomented by the right wing media machine that ignores facts, statistics, and despises the average American citizens rights and freedom.

Nothing positive for society has ever come from the practical application of conservative philosophy. If conservative philosophy had held up, the Jim Crow laws would still be in effect, unmarried adult women would not be allowed to own property on their own names and have independent credit, Social Security and Medicare would not be in effect, and deeds to property could legally exclude property ownership by anyone who was not of white Northern European ancestry.

All of the positive changes that have occurred in society have come about via the practical application of Liberal philosophy.

[champu 1]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4511242;#4511242

[Boomerdog 0]

Careful there big guy. There's a Proverb that says "pride goeth before the fall."

[billvon 2,400]

>So you think religion is a corporate rather than a strictly personal thing.

?? No. It's a personal thing. And that person can be the CEO of a company, or it can be the people who make up a board of directors.

>Where do corporations pray? Do corporations have a soul? An afterlife? Can
>Jesus save a corporation?

Dumb argument. That's like claiming the faculty at the place you teach can't pray, and can't have religious beliefs. Because they're the faculty, not people.

[kallend 1,625]

billvon

>So you think religion is a corporate rather than a strictly personal thing.

?? No. It's a personal thing. And that person can be the CEO of a company, or it can be the people who make up a board of directors.

>Where do corporations pray? Do corporations have a soul? An afterlife? Can
>Jesus save a corporation?

Dumb argument. That's like claiming the faculty at the place you teach can't pray, and can't have religious beliefs. Because they're the faculty, not people.

Weasely answer. THIS case is about the CORPORATION, which is legally a different entity than the people who run it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[funjumper101 15]

+1000

[tkhayes 126]

I cannot see Hobby Lobby prevailing in this case. Previous related cases including striking down parts of RFRA have set the basis for this case to fail for them.

They are simply claiming that the previous cases only applied to states and not to federal law.

Should Hobby Lobby prevail, it lays the groundwork for anyone to ignore or break pretty much any federal law because of their religious beliefs. This is not a sustainable solution. Nor should it be.

[Amazon 7]

I love things like this..

It allows me to choose who I wish to spend my money with...

Hobby lobby will never see another dollar from me... The list of products that asshats like these wish to peddle can be bought elsewhere.

[billvon 2,400]

>THIS case is about the CORPORATION, which is legally a different entity than the
>people who run it.

Ah, so you are arguing that corporations are separate legal entities that can have their own unique opinions! Looks like you've answered your own question, then.

[tkhayes 126]

not at all - you are oversimplifying the entire issue apparently. He is 100% correct and you are somewhat correct. And neither of those single points actually makes or breaks the case.

[kallend 1,625]

billvon

>THIS case is about the CORPORATION, which is legally a different entity than the
>people who run it.

Ah, so you are arguing that corporations are separate legal entities that can have their own unique opinions! Looks like you've answered your own question, then.

Nope.

I am arguing that a CORPORATION (which is distinct from its owners) cannot have religious beliefs, any more that it can have eternal soul even if the owners think that THEY have eternal souls.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>I am arguing that a CORPORATION (which is distinct from its owners) cannot
>have religious beliefs

And I am saying that's dumb. So Catholic Charities, a network of charitable organizations, cannot have religious beliefs? The Protestant Church can't have religious beliefs? They are, after all, just an organization of religious types, distinct from its owners. (And in many places, also a lucrative business.)

Any corporation/organization/network can have whatever religious beliefs its owners want it to have. It can have beliefs on religion, politics and morality, and implement these beliefs (within the law) with its resources.

>any more that it can have eternal soul even if the owners think that THEY have
>eternal souls.

I'll let you argue about eternal souls with Ron. Not germane to this discussion.

[kallend 1,625]

billvon

>I am arguing that a CORPORATION (which is distinct from its owners) cannot
>have religious beliefs

And I am saying that's dumb. .

And I'm disagreeing with you.

I don't believe a church or a charity has beliefs any more than it has emotions or feelings. I believe members of a church do.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>I don't believe a church or a charity has beliefs any more than it has emotions or
>feelings.

OK. So the Catholic Church does not have religious beliefs. Not sure how you get that to make sense, but I understand what you are claiming at least.

[kallend 1,625]

billvon

>I don't believe a church or a charity has beliefs any more than it has emotions or
>feelings.

OK. So the Catholic Church does not have religious beliefs. Not sure how you get that to make sense, but I understand what you are claiming at least.

Well, there are MEMBERS who think women should be denied the priesthood, and others who believe the opposite. There are MEMBERS who use birth control and others who think it sinful.

So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

So then, can organizations have principles? Is there a difference between asking someone to violate their beliefs, and asking them to violate their principles?

I can see the semantic argument that you would need to have some form of self-awareness to believe something, but in this case "beliefs" is pretty much synonymous with "principles".

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)