The Hobby Lobby case

[tkhayes 126]

Page 3 of Hobby Lobby's brief admits that they previously offered the health insurance that they now object to. You will have to google to find it, I have a pdf,

Huff post did not 'make this up'. Hobby Lobby included the admission in their filings.

that is called hypocrisy, yes. through and through. Not a paradox, true hypocrisy. actually saying you believe in one thing and then doing something else.

[rushmc 18]

tkhayes

Page 3 of Hobby Lobby's brief admits that they previously offered the health insurance that they now object to. You will have to google to find it, I have a pdf,

Huff post did not 'make this up'. Hobby Lobby included the admission in their filings.

that is called hypocrisy, yes. through and through. Not a paradox, true hypocrisy. actually saying you believe in one thing and then doing something else.

Something new for me
And with this you have a point
But
Hypocrisy does not change the other points we just exchanged

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 126]

SE Cupp is a pretty smart ladt, Masters and well-educated. I find her columns quite readable, because she tends to use facts, not emotions.

But she has not criticized the ACA much lately. Her last column on the rollout was in October about how it was going to fail, but given that 6M have now signed up, she is not saying much about it.

She is also pro-pot, thinks that the right-wing made fatal mistakes by drug-testing welfare recipients and agrees with some gun control and other changes to society on how to deal with those issues.

In order words, she is not your right-wing ideologue, she is conservative but would not make it past the tea-party for sure.

[kallend 1,625]

RonD1120

******



That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hobby Lobby was paying for these right up until they became associated with the ACA. Then they suddenly became evil.

HYPOCRITES!

Are you saying you have evidence that Hobby Lobby paid for the four abortive procedures prior to the enactment of Obamacare?

They ADMITTED it in their brief to the court.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Want to bet the Hobby Lobby men are all covered for penis pumps and stiffy pills for their ED???
Its a goose and gander thing... you cover one.. you cover the other.

[kallend 1,625]

rushmc

*********



That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hobby Lobby was paying for these right up until they became associated with the ACA. Then they suddenly became evil.

HYPOCRITES!

Are you saying you have evidence that Hobby Lobby paid for the four abortive procedures prior to the enactment of Obamacare?

Don't hold your breath



DO PAY ATTENTION DEAR BOY!

It is stated in the Hobby Lobby brief to the Supreme Court. Hobby Lobby WAS providing that coverage prior to the ACA, they admit it.

It only became evil when associated with Obama.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

It is stated in the Hobby Lobby brief to the Supreme Court. Hobby Lobby WAS providing that coverage prior to the ACA, they admit it.

It only became evil when associated with Obama.

Perhaps. I also read somewhere that they were not aware that those methods were included in the coverage they provided, until they were informed by [whatever the conservative group is that recruited Hobby Lobby to the lawsuit; I forget the name and can't find it now].

Given the complexity of most health care policies, I think it is believable (and more likely) that Hobby Lobby's owners were simply unaware of every detail of the policy they made available to employees. I don't think it's fair to just assume they are being hypocritical.

Anyway, as far as the law, and ramifications of the eventual ruling, are concerned, it doesn't matter if they are being hypocritical or not.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[kelpdiver 2]

GeorgiaDon

Given the complexity of most health care policies, I think it is believable (and more likely) that Hobby Lobby's owners were simply unaware of every detail of the policy they made available to employees. I don't think it's fair to just assume they are being hypocritical.

Doesn't sound like their religious convictions are all that important to them, then.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

Doesn't sound like their religious convictions are all that important to them, then.

When my daughter was 17 she got pregnant. Much to my surprise I discovered that, although she was covered as a dependent under my health insurance, that insurance would not cover any of her pregnancy related expenses. My employer's policy (which is not mentioned in any of the literature that is actually available from Human Resources) is to cover pregnancy only for one's legally married spouse. As I was not expecting my daughter to get pregnant, it did not occur to me to ask human resources about coverage before allowing her to date. Also, having come from Canada where such matters are treated as medical issues and not as morality plays, it never occurred to me that my employer-subsidized insurance would refuse to cover a medical condition due to my employer's prudish moralizing.

Does the fact that I did not know about the exclusion, even though the only way to have found out about it in advance would have been to ask the insurer directly (as the policy is not mentioned in anything human resources gives to employees, and full copies of the insurance contract are also not available), mean, in your eyes, that I didn't care that my daughter got knocked up by her boyfriend?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[kelpdiver 2]

Hobby Lobby has 21,000 employees and a staffed HR department. You have one daughter. There's no comparison worth discussing here.

It's easy for you to overlook, or not be able to find this sort of information - they don't make it easy. But companies negotiate their coverage every year. It can hardly be a surprise to them that women's health needs were being covered.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

It's easy for you to overlook, or not be able to find this sort of information - they don't make it easy. But companies negotiate their coverage every year. It can hardly be a surprise to them that women's health needs were being covered.

That's certainly true. But do you think the owners know every line of every contract they pay other people to take care of? In this case we're talking about a small handful of contraception choices, out of a considerably larger set of choices that would still be covered. It's possible, of course, that they were fully aware that plan B and other problematic (to them) choices were covered, and didn't care until the issue became a leverage point to attack the ACA. If that's the case they are indeed hypocritical pricks. I'm personally more inclined to believe that they are sincere about their beliefs (as evidenced by other policies such as closing on Sundays) and that they were unaware that these few contraception choices were covered, or were unaware that some people associate (probably incorrectly) those methods with abortifacents. But of course I don't know. Clearly the people who raised the issue with the Greens (owners of Hobby Lobby) did so to stir up shit, and I would class them as opportunistic shits.

Just so we're clear, although I understand that people with religious convictions could be upset about the law, I don't think that it's good policy to exempt for-profit companies from having to abide by laws that apply to everybody else. Conflating corporations with their owners opens a host of "interesting" problems.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 2,400]

>Employees are forcing their beliefs on the comany here

Yes, they are. And time and time again we have ruled that the rights of employees, in general, trump the rights of an employer. An employee can hate his black manager and quit. A manager cannot hate his black employee and fire him.

[kelpdiver 2]

GeorgiaDon

That's certainly true. But do you think the owners know every line of every contract they pay other people to take care of? In this case we're talking about a small handful of contraception choices, out of a considerably larger set of choices that would still be covered. It's possible, of course, that they were fully aware that plan B and other problematic (to them) choices were covered, and didn't care until the issue became a leverage point to attack the ACA. If that's the case they are indeed hypocritical pricks.

You can fairly give them the benefit of the doubt. But personally, I think that if this is such a big deal now that they want to be on the (losing) side of a Supreme Court case, then I think they knew before, and this is really no different from the people who claimed they were killing benefits because of Obama.

[Amazon 7]

More Hypocrisy from these TOOLS

Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception Manufacturers


When Hobby Lobby filed its case against Obamacare's contraception mandate, its retirement plan had more than $73 million invested in funds with stakes in contraception makers.

Sooo invest in companies... Have a lot of your crap made in the abortion capitol of the world... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I wonder if the TOOLS in the boardroom are getting headaches yet after putting themselves out there for their buddies that talked them into this fuckup.

[normiss 622]

More likely that it's an institutional type plan that is fully administered by an outside firm.

I know, that's no fun.

[Amazon 7]

normiss

More likely that it's an institutional type plan that is fully administered by an outside firm.

I know, that's no fun.

Read the article... there are administrators who take care of that.. I know EXACTLY where I am invested.
Edited to add
In their Supreme Court complaint, Hobby Lobby's owners chronicle the many ways in which they avoid entanglements with objectionable companies. Hobby Lobby stores do not sell shot glasses, for example, and the Greens decline requests from beer distributors to back-haul beer on Hobby Lobby trucks.

Similar options exist for companies that want to practice what's sometimes called faith-based investing. To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs—or products such as alcohol or pornography—religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research. Dan Hardt, a Kentucky financial planner who specializes in faith-based investing, says the performances of these funds are about the same as if they had not been screened. But Hobby Lobby's managers either were not aware of these options or chose not to invest in them.


If they gonna be stoopid... they gotta have asbestos big boy panties.

[billvon 2,400]

>More likely that it's an institutional type plan that is fully administered by an
>outside firm.

Well, that's fine then; they were just ignorant that some of their income was coming from contraception.

So here's a solution to their problem - pay for health insurance for their female employees and keep their noses out of what they use it for. They stay just as ignorant; as far as they know, none of their money is coming from contraception, and none of their money is going towards contraception. Everyone is happy. (Except, of course, people with a need to be unhappy. And right wing extremists.)

[kelpdiver 2]

Amazon

Dan Hardt, a Kentucky financial planner who specializes in faith-based investing, says the performances of these funds are about the same as if they had not been screened. But Hobby Lobby's managers either were not aware of these options or chose not to invest in them.

Dan Hardt wouldn't have an incentive to lie about this, would he?

This sort of investment philosophy generally underperforms. Sin focused investing, otoh, tends to out perform mildly.

It would be difficult, and probably a violation of fudiciary duty, to avoid mutual funds that include Pfizer or Bayer in their holdings. The list is provided in the article - it includes 10 Target Date funds which nearly certainly include an S&P500 index fund at varying percentages based on the target, and thus those two companies.

Mother Jones is reaching here, showing a pretty poor understanding (or intentional misunderstanding) of the information.

[kallend 1,625]

Amazon

More Hypocrisy from these TOOLS

Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception Manufacturers


When Hobby Lobby filed its case against Obamacare's contraception mandate, its retirement plan had more than $73 million invested in funds with stakes in contraception makers.

Sooo invest in companies... Have a lot of your crap made in the abortion capitol of the world... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I wonder if the TOOLS in the boardroom are getting headaches yet after putting themselves out there for their buddies that talked them into this fuckup.

A lot of the Hobby Lobby inventory (well over 50%) is outsourced to CHINA, home to forced abortions to impose the one-child policy.

So as long as it saves Hobby Lobby money, they have no problem. It's only when it affects their profits that they develop moral objections.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

rushmc

***

Quote

The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control

That is not entirely factually correct. Employers are already paying for it through insurance plans, or contributions to insurance plans howsoever structured within each company.

And even if the '4' that they claim are removed, they will still be paying for it and I bet $100 that the premiums that the companies pay will not actually be reduced by one nickel over these four forms of birth control.

So this is an ethical/moral, not a financial argument - I get that. So stop bringing up the issue of 'companies do not want to pay for it - I will argue that paying for it is not relevant to the case. Your (their) religious objections to it are relevant to the case, and exactly why they will lose this one.

Your religious beliefs end where they impose on my rights. rights for birth control are not constitutional, but they are well established case law. This case, while divisive to the country, much like the pro-slavery arguments will die in favor of women having the right to control their reproductive systems.

You can turn this argument against yourself as well
Employees are forcing their beliefs on the comany here
So, there religious rights end where they attempt to impose their beliefs on the company owner

It is NOT like the slavery issue in any way

The women can still get any product or procedure they want
At any time
The issue is who is being FORCED to pay for it

Tell us, Marc, how will you feel when a company owned by Muslims decides to enforce Sharia Law on its employees under the guise of "religious freedom"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

******

Quote

The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control

That is not entirely factually correct. Employers are already paying for it through insurance plans, or contributions to insurance plans howsoever structured within each company.

And even if the '4' that they claim are removed, they will still be paying for it and I bet $100 that the premiums that the companies pay will not actually be reduced by one nickel over these four forms of birth control.

So this is an ethical/moral, not a financial argument - I get that. So stop bringing up the issue of 'companies do not want to pay for it - I will argue that paying for it is not relevant to the case. Your (their) religious objections to it are relevant to the case, and exactly why they will lose this one.

Your religious beliefs end where they impose on my rights. rights for birth control are not constitutional, but they are well established case law. This case, while divisive to the country, much like the pro-slavery arguments will die in favor of women having the right to control their reproductive systems.

You can turn this argument against yourself as well
Employees are forcing their beliefs on the comany here
So, there religious rights end where they attempt to impose their beliefs on the company owner

It is NOT like the slavery issue in any way

The women can still get any product or procedure they want
At any time
The issue is who is being FORCED to pay for it

Tell us, Marc, how will you feel when a company owned by Muslims decides to enforce Sharia Law on its employees under the guise of "religious freedom"?

Why dont you tell us how you feel seeing this has got no more to do with this topic than earlier slavery comments

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 622]

It actually has everything to do with this topic.

[marks2065 0]

billvon

>THIS case is about the CORPORATION, which is legally a different entity than the
>people who run it.

Ah, so you are arguing that corporations are separate legal entities that can have their own unique opinions! Looks like you've answered your own question, then.

The supreme court has already ruled on this. They said corporations can donate to and influence politics and elections based on the beliefs of the board or owners, therefore that allows the beliefs of the board or owners in regards to religion to be expressed in how they handle the purchases of the business based on religious freedom.

[marks2065 0]

Amazon

Want to bet the Hobby Lobby men are all covered for penis pumps and stiffy pills for their ED???
Its a goose and gander thing... you cover one.. you cover the other.

And I would agree that these should not be covered either, but how do these cause abortions? it is abortions that Hobby Lobby is against. So you are using something completely not relevant to try to prove a point. beside the catholic religion does not condem making babies, only abortions and blocking the babies from being conceived because sex is for creation not pleasure. Whether you believe this or not is your right just like it is their right to believe how they do. You do not have the right to tell them how to believe and they are not stopping anyone from believing how they want.

[marks2065 0]

Amazon

***More likely that it's an institutional type plan that is fully administered by an outside firm.

I know, that's no fun.

Read the article... there are administrators who take care of that.. I know EXACTLY where I am invested.
Edited to add
In their Supreme Court complaint, Hobby Lobby's owners chronicle the many ways in which they avoid entanglements with objectionable companies. Hobby Lobby stores do not sell shot glasses, for example, and the Greens decline requests from beer distributors to back-haul beer on Hobby Lobby trucks.

Similar options exist for companies that want to practice what's sometimes called faith-based investing. To avoid supporting companies that manufacture abortion drugs—or products such as alcohol or pornography—religious investors can turn to a cottage industry of mutual funds that screen out stocks that religious people might consider morally objectionable. The Timothy Plan and the Ave Maria Fund, for example, screen for companies that manufacture abortion drugs, support Planned Parenthood, or engage in embryonic stem cell research. Dan Hardt, a Kentucky financial planner who specializes in faith-based investing, says the performances of these funds are about the same as if they had not been screened. But Hobby Lobby's managers either were not aware of these options or chose not to invest in them.


If they gonna be stoopid... they gotta have asbestos big boy panties.

And Michael Moore was heavily invested in the stock market including Haliburton and other companies when he bad mouthed capitalism and Haliburtan. So this means that everything Michael Moore's said is now wrong in your eyes.