"Prayer" vs medicine

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Quote

I guess you would have to prove that the first person that had a disease, or that the mutations of the body that are, or cause disease, or the pathogens and their mutations, etc. are NOT the derivation of sin, then I can could believe you.

Uhmm, no. It usually works the other way around.

See, if I claim that unicorns that piss champagne live in the centre of the earth, that doesn't become fact until you prove that they don't.

Typical liberal thinking.

You saying that something that is proven not to exist is fact of it existing.

Your statement says that only after I disprove them living at the center of the earth does it become fact that they do.

Typical liberal.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[flygirl1220 0]

Hello Chris,

So here is my two cents. I have seen both sides of the fence. I grew up in a christian family and work in health care in an aspect to where I get the sickest of the sick and most injured as they can get. I try my hardest with every single patient I have.....sometimes its just there is nothing else that can be done. And when I drop them off I am expecting to see there obituary in the paper a few days later. Some of those people make it through. How?? I have no idea. You can say it is modern medicine and that the doctors are highly skilled. But sometimes it can be explained as nothing more than it wasn't their day to go. I'm not saying that you need to believe in god, budda, the queen sheeba or whatever. That is why there are so many different religions. Who is to say which one is right and which one is wrong? And even that you should believe in a higher power of some kind? Simply it is whatever gives people the comfort they need to support their loved one in a time of need. So if it is that you put all your credit and faith into the doctors and modern medicine, please do. If that is what gives you strength to help your loved one than do what you have to. But just understand that the other members of the family are just putting their credit and faith into what gives them comfort, so in turn they can also put on a good face for the little man and give him the comfort and strength they have to offer. And yes I question religion all the time and why some of the things happen or why the young and innocent are taken. I don't understand and a lot of times never will. I read a book once called 90 minutes in heaven. It is a first hand account of one of those unexplained. If your ever curious to even see maybe what your family members are looking for I would encourage you to read it. Of course that is your choice to make and will not shove anything down your throat. Best wishes to your wifes cousins family and hope that a cure can be found for him.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

I guess you would have to prove that the first person that had a disease, or that the mutations of the body that are, or cause disease, or the pathogens and their mutations, etc. are NOT the derivation of sin, then I can could believe you.

Uhmm, no. It usually works the other way around.

See, if I claim that unicorns that piss champagne live in the centre of the earth, that doesn't become fact until you prove that they don't.

Typical liberal thinking.

You saying that something that is proven not to exist is fact of it existing.

Your statement says that only after I disprove them living at the center of the earth does it become fact that they do.

Typical liberal.

I can see the ambiguity.

Though in context it is pretty clear.

[RMK 3]

RonD1120

Disease is a product of sin.

You seem fond of quotes, here’s one:

“All seems a bit fucking arbitrary to me. Something good happens – praise God. Something bad happens – the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Al Pacino “The Devil’s Advocate”

Seriously though, we see some idiotic posts, but this one is repugnant.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[quade 3]

RonD1120

The Bible states that every good and perfect thing comes from God. All the bad and evil comes from Satan.

No, it doesn't. Just use the logic of your own mythology for a nanosecond.

If God created the universe and everything in it, then he created Satan.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sfzombie13 307]

i actually talked to two girls that came door to door once after getting high. we sat on the porch and chatted for almost an hour and i found out why they send them in pairs: i almost had them both ready to convert to paganism. it was kind of cool really, they were both really knowledgeable, but i had the edge on them as i had a wide range of knowledge and theirs was narrow.

what a lot of people don't realize about the nature of belief is that the wrapper doesn't matter, it's on the inside where all the power resides. it has been proven before and will be argued forever that man has (or doesn't have) extreme abilities, oftentimes unexplainable. i was in a house recently which was converted from an old church. you can feel the energy there, it's really quite pleasant. and the same thing happened to me at revivals when i was a kid, felling the energy there was exhilarating!

given all that i have read about and even seen with my own eyes, it takes little argument to convince me that the old pagan ways were our ancestors' way of connecting with the energy of the universe. with a little adaptation, it is clearly (to me) the best path to be on. most of it involves using the power within yourself to heal and gain what we want, anything we put enough work into.

of course, that's just like the other side of this, hard to prove anything when you're talking science versus religion. even some things in science have changed radically in the last 200 years, not to mention the great faith required for religious acceptance.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[flygirl1220 0]

Well said. Thank you!

[billvon 2,400]

>Isaiah 5:19-21

A few others:

1 Samuel 2:3:
Talk no more so very proudly;
Let no arrogance come from your mouth,
For the Lord is the God of knowledge

Isaiah 2:11:
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

Let's switch to the New Testament:

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

I realize you figure the above do not apply to you. Just something to consider.

[Andy9o8 0]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

I guess you would have to prove that the first person that had a disease, or that the mutations of the body that are, or cause disease, or the pathogens and their mutations, etc. are NOT the derivation of sin, then I can could believe you.

Uhmm, no. It usually works the other way around.

See, if I claim that unicorns that piss champagne live in the centre of the earth, that doesn't become fact until you prove that they don't.

Typical liberal thinking.

You saying that something that is proven not to exist is fact of it existing.

Your statement says that only after I disprove them living at the center of the earth does it become fact that they do.

Typical liberal.

Are you competing with RonD in that "special" category? Give it up; he's far better at it than you are.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>Isaiah 5:19-21

A few others:

1 Samuel 2:3:
Talk no more so very proudly;
Let no arrogance come from your mouth,
For the Lord is the God of knowledge

Isaiah 2:11:
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

Let's switch to the New Testament:

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

I realize you figure the above do not apply to you. Just something to consider.

I think you meant these verses for kallend.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

The following is relevant to our discussion of prayer. It is Oswald Chambers for 17 Oct.

I never read the "Brothers Karamazov", that is heavy stuff, very depressing.

172013
And greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father. — John 14:12

Prayer does not fit us for the greater works; prayer is the greater work. We think of prayer as a common-sense exercise of our higher powers in order to prepare us for God’s work. In the teaching of Jesus Christ prayer is the working of the miracle of Redemption in me which produces the miracle of Redemption in others by the power of God. The way fruit remains is by prayer, but remember it is prayer based on the agony of Redemption, not on my agony. Only a child gets prayer answered; a wise man does not.

Prayer is the battle; it is a matter of indifference where you are. Whichever way God engineers circumstances, the duty is to pray. Never allow the thought – "I am of no use where I am;" because you certainly can be of no use where you are not. Wherever God has dumped you down in circumstances pray, ejaculate to Him all the time. "Whatsoever ye ask in My name, that will I do." We won’t pray unless we get thrills, that is the intensest form of spiritual selfishness. We have to labour along the line of God’s direction, and He says pray. "Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He will send forth labourers into His harvest."

There is nothing thrilling about a labouring man’s work, but it is the labouring man who makes the conceptions of the genius possible; and it is the labouring saint who makes the conceptions of his Master possible. You labour at prayer and results happen all the time from His standpoint. What an astonishment it will be to find, when the veil is lifted, the souls that have been reaped by you, simply because you had been in the habit of taking your orders from Jesus Christ.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

quade

***The Bible states that every good and perfect thing comes from God. All the bad and evil comes from Satan.

No, it doesn't. Just use the logic of your own mythology for a nanosecond.

If God created the universe and everything in it, then he created Satan.

Yours is a trite and hackneyed argument. Satan is a created being that was cast from heaven. I know that makes absolutely no sense to you but, I try.

Some Scripture for reference:

Ezekiel 28:
King James Version (KJV)
28 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Luke 10:
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Note from this last verse, when you and the others attack and accuse me, one of the brethren, you are an agent of Satan. That's OK, for it serves to reinforce my belief. It is just your nature.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Guys, seriously, RonD1120's got this one. It's written down in a badly-translated 400 year-old book, so he's got to be right. Right?

[shropshire 0]

mr2mk1g

Guys, seriously, RonD1120's got this one. It's written down in a badly-translated 400 year-old book, so he's got to be right. Right?

Bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa [choke] waaaaaaaaaaaa

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

CornishChris

...On Facebook the amount of religious rhetoric surrounding the child's survival of the operation is incredible - lot's of "praise god", "Thank you Jesus", "Our prayers have been answered" etc. I was the first person to mention the hospital staff. Obviously I would not belittle their faith to them in such a public forum as Facebook (and I guarantee they aren't on here), especially in this difficult time but I don't understand how they can believe that any god is good for giving a child cancer, not thank the hospital staff and doctors, just some mystery being. What would have happened if he had died - was that god's plan? Why did this so-called god give a small child of incredibly religious parents this horrific disease, not some non-believer?! What if I had thanked FSM for reaching out and cradling the boy in his noodley appendages and rescuing him - would that be in any way different?

I'm not sure what I expect to achieve from this post. I'm not even sure why this makes me so angry but I find the thanking of some imaginary friend for the incredible work done by skilled doctors and nurses after hundreds of years of accumulated medical learning, years of training and amazing technology crass in the extreme.

Rant over.

These people are facing an unfathomable situation. They need something to lean on.
That is one of the positives of religion. It gives strength in the face of adversity to people in horrific situations. I believe more and more that it is nothing more than Dumbo's "Magic Feather", but that's ok.

Since the kid survived the operation, then their "prayers were answered." If he had not, then it would have been "God's Will" that he didn't.

Personally, I think it's pretty arrogant to believe that God chose their prayers to answer, rather than those of all the people who died (including a lot of kids), but that's pretty typical.

The idea that disease is the result of sin is abhorrent. Truly Evil (with a capital "E").

The practice of putting things we don't like, disagree with or fear in the "evil" category is one of the worst negative aspects of religion.

Snakes aren't evil, they are snakes. Whales (the leviathan) aren't evil, they are actually pretty cool. And bacteria and viruses and malignant tumors aren't evil. They just do stuff to us that we don't like

But some people can't accept that. So they assign "Evil" to anything that doesn't agree with their beliefs. No matter how ridiculous those beliefs are.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wildcard451 0]

Ron - this will get me banned from SC for a while - but you are truly a sick fuck.

[shropshire 0]

That's mean ... play the Ball not the Player.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,400]

>I think you meant these verses for kallend.

No, they are for you. To be more clear, don't judge a 5 year old who has cancer and decide that his illness is caused by sin. Don't be so arrogant that you think you know better what caused that illness than his doctors do, or so arrogant that you know what his life has been like. Arrogance like that often leads to getting humbled - so best to solve your own problems before finding them in others.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

billvon

>I think you meant these verses for kallend.

No, they are for you. To be more clear, don't judge a 5 year old who has cancer and decide that his illness is caused by sin. Don't be so arrogant that you think you know better what caused that illness than his doctors do, or so arrogant that you know what his life has been like. Arrogance like that often leads to getting humbled - so best to solve your own problems before finding them in others.

Don't forget:

Being so certain of your beliefs that anyone who questions them is an agent of Satan.

Being so certain of your interpretation of your beliefs that only those who believe the exact same thing can understand them (Only Christians can understand the teachings of Christ).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,384]

wildcard451

Ron - this will get me banned from SC for a while - but you are truly a sick fuck.

You're just sore because now you know that instead of going to med school, you should have trained to be an exorcist.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>I think you meant these verses for kallend.

No, they are for you. To be more clear, don't judge a 5 year old who has cancer and decide that his illness is caused by sin. Don't be so arrogant that you think you know better what caused that illness than his doctors do, or so arrogant that you know what his life has been like. Arrogance like that often leads to getting humbled - so best to solve your own problems before finding them in others.

Billvon, you totally missed the point. My fault I guess because so did many others in this thread. I did not judge the child.

Think in the macro sense. Sin entered the world through Adam. Sin brings disease and all the bad things of life.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 3]

Yes, yes . . . when there are 9 people telling you you're wrong, clearly it's the other people who are at fault because you can't explain yourself.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[RonD1120 58]

quade

Yes, yes . . . when there are 9 people telling you you're wrong, clearly it's the other people who are at fault because you can't explain yourself.

You are not reading what I post. Stop shooting from the hip. You are looking foolish, again.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[shropshire 0]

quade

Yes, yes . . . when there are 9 people telling you you're wrong, clearly it's the other people who are at fault because you can't explain yourself.

Quote

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

Albert Einstein (apparently)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

RonD1120

Sin entered the world through Adam. Sin brings disease and all the bad things of life.

Are you contending that Adam was a real historical person?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome