beowulf 1 #101 January 28, 2013 Just because there is data doesn't mean it's good data. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #102 January 28, 2013 QuoteJust because there is data doesn't mean it's good data. True but I haven't seen any valid reasons why the data from the (independently performed) surveys should be dismissed. (That they were obtained from surveys is NOT a valid reason.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #103 January 28, 2013 That doesn't make them conclusive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #104 January 28, 2013 QuoteThat doesn't make them conclusive. No one claimed they are conclusive. That does not, however, mean that they aren't highly probably correct.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #105 January 28, 2013 My skepticism regarding polls and surveys is not due to the methods in this case. It's more because of the subject. I think a good many people are likely to not participate or be truthful on this subject. I am sure Gallop and GSS have good methods and are reliable. I think the probability that the poll/survey is correct is much lower then what you think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #106 January 28, 2013 QuoteMy skepticism regarding polls and surveys is not due to the methods in this case. It's more because of the subject. I think a good many people are likely to not participate or be truthful on this subject. I am sure Gallop and GSS have good methods and are reliable. I understand. You feel that gun owners are inherently dishonest. You're entitled to that opinion. Still, the surveys provide the best data regarding ownership rates that I know of. The NICS data simply don't provide enough information to tell us about ownership rates.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #107 January 28, 2013 You are jumping to conclusions. Not participating doesn't make someone dishonest. Not telling the truth on a poll or survey is petty white lie. It' doesn't necessarily make someone a dishonest person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #108 January 28, 2013 QuoteNot participating doesn't make someone dishonest. True, but non-participation can be largely accounted for with survey methodology. QuoteNot telling the truth on a poll or survey is petty white lie. It' doesn't necessarily make someone a dishonest person. That's exactly what it does.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #109 January 28, 2013 Some may be criminals that are not going to answer truthfully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #110 January 28, 2013 QuoteSome may be criminals that are not going to answer truthfully. That's certainly a possibility, though such a small (relatively speaking) population is exceedingly unlikely to affect the results enough that an increasing trend would become a decreasing trend.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #111 January 28, 2013 QuoteYou are jumping to conclusions. Not participating doesn't make someone dishonest. Not telling the truth on a poll or survey is petty white lie. It' doesn't necessarily make someone a dishonest person. yes it does.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #112 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteAgreed. Gun deaths would go up, gun arrests would go down. Acually, recent history has shown this most likely NOT to be true But Bill already know this"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #113 January 28, 2013 QuoteI'm sure there are some new owners. Is it a significant increase, or is it an increase that could be considered to be the same, statistically, as the current number. BTW, if a decrease can be deemed insignificant, so can an increase. And I still think the internet & media are a bigger cause of the current gun & ammo shortage than Obama is -- it's the fear being spread that makes people buy more than they normally would have, and that's what leads to short-term shortages. Wendy P. Well, maybe, the media for the most part did not report what Obama has said about his gun ownership views In any event Be prepared for the rath of Quade Cause he says its the NRA's fault On another note, just person observation A good freind of mine owns a gun store Those buying guns for the first time at least equal those buying again (in his shop) At this is easyly determined by those who come in without a permit to purchase or CCW permit and do not know about NICS or the other procedures to buy here in Iowa And one more thing Obama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learned He is not changing his stripes now"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #114 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteThis is what NICS provide. From this there is no way to determine how many new gun owners or repeat buyers or even the total gun purchases. It could give a rough estimate of gun purchases. Agreed. Gun purchases, however, are not a good metric for measuring the rate of gun ownership. It is entirely possible and plausible that the former can increase while the latter decreases. Both Gallup polling and the General Social Survey suggest ownership is declining in the long term. How about using the numbers in FL where conceal weapons permits are setting records Would you just then assume that those getting the premits are current gun owners or new gun owners?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davjohns 1 #115 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteYou are jumping to conclusions. Not participating doesn't make someone dishonest. Not telling the truth on a poll or survey is petty white lie. It' doesn't necessarily make someone a dishonest person. yes it does. Saying a white lie is not a lie is like saying oral sex is not sex. Hell, it's right there in the name.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,126 #116 January 28, 2013 QuoteObama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learnedWhat happened to "Actions speak louder than words?" What actual actions has he taken that has reduced the availability of guns? I think some people are idiots and don't deserve to breathe. Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. Even if I were the President, I wouldn't. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #117 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteObama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learnedWhat happened to "Actions speak louder than words?" What actual actions has he taken that has reduced the availability of guns? I think some people are idiots and don't deserve to breathe. Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. Even if I were the President, I wouldn't. Wendy P. He is not up for re-election Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead Maybe you wouldnt But he is"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #118 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteGun ownership has increased decreased and according to the FBI violent crime has been decreasing. US Gun Ownership US Murder & Robbery rates I can't speak about causation, but the correlation appears to be there. You got a cool little gragh here Got the data and questions behind it? I would like to take a look at it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #119 January 28, 2013 QuoteSo how come the inverse is not also true? Legalize all guns and you'll have fewer illegal ones. Think about what you just wrote. QuoteEliminate speed limits and you'll have fewer speeders. Legalize drunk driving and you'll have fewer DUIs. Same logic. Not quite the same logic but yes, how is a "speeder" defined? By the posted speed limit of course. Not by what YOU would call "speeding". Same for the DUIs.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #120 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteSome may be criminals that are not going to answer truthfully. That's certainly a possibility, though such a small (relatively speaking) population is exceedingly unlikely to affect the results enough that an increasing trend would become a decreasing trend. You like surveys How about a more recent one QuoteSelf-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993 QuotePRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx What say you now?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #121 January 28, 2013 Quote Well just as literally, it IS true. Legalize all guns, and by definition, there are NO illegal guns. THAT is his whole point. Just think about it. If it is impossible to own a gun illegally, how can there be illegal guns? ETA: I didn't bother addressing the other examples since this is a gun related thread, but the same logic applies. Dang it! I was hoping he would follow it on through to realize his own error. But you let the cat out of the bag. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #122 January 28, 2013 QuoteThe polls and surveys regarding gun ownership could be entirely wrong. It just depends on who responds and how truthful they are. I think many gun owners would not respond and that would skew the numbers. How is the up- or down-swing of ownership, however one defines it, relevant to us as a population? And, no, I do not see any evidence of causation in the comparisons of guns vs crime "studies".My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #123 January 28, 2013 Quote Quite true. Look, for example, at how the deft use of polls enhanced the reliability of John Rich's threads. Enhanced? oh...you were being sarcastic. I get it now. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davjohns 1 #124 January 28, 2013 There are actually no illegal guns now. There are instances of illegal possession. But the guns themselves are perfectly legal...including machineguns. Just being a grammar Nazi. I knew what was meant.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #125 January 28, 2013 Quote And I still think the internet & media are a bigger cause of the current gun & ammo shortage than Obama is -- it's the fear being spread that makes people buy more than they normally would have, and that's what leads to short-term shortages. Wendy P. Oh, hell...did you get hammered by the "It's the NRA's fault! They are the ones spreading fear that's driving the mad rush on weapons and ammo." My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rushmc 18 #113 January 28, 2013 QuoteI'm sure there are some new owners. Is it a significant increase, or is it an increase that could be considered to be the same, statistically, as the current number. BTW, if a decrease can be deemed insignificant, so can an increase. And I still think the internet & media are a bigger cause of the current gun & ammo shortage than Obama is -- it's the fear being spread that makes people buy more than they normally would have, and that's what leads to short-term shortages. Wendy P. Well, maybe, the media for the most part did not report what Obama has said about his gun ownership views In any event Be prepared for the rath of Quade Cause he says its the NRA's fault On another note, just person observation A good freind of mine owns a gun store Those buying guns for the first time at least equal those buying again (in his shop) At this is easyly determined by those who come in without a permit to purchase or CCW permit and do not know about NICS or the other procedures to buy here in Iowa And one more thing Obama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learned He is not changing his stripes now"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #114 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteThis is what NICS provide. From this there is no way to determine how many new gun owners or repeat buyers or even the total gun purchases. It could give a rough estimate of gun purchases. Agreed. Gun purchases, however, are not a good metric for measuring the rate of gun ownership. It is entirely possible and plausible that the former can increase while the latter decreases. Both Gallup polling and the General Social Survey suggest ownership is declining in the long term. How about using the numbers in FL where conceal weapons permits are setting records Would you just then assume that those getting the premits are current gun owners or new gun owners?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #115 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteYou are jumping to conclusions. Not participating doesn't make someone dishonest. Not telling the truth on a poll or survey is petty white lie. It' doesn't necessarily make someone a dishonest person. yes it does. Saying a white lie is not a lie is like saying oral sex is not sex. Hell, it's right there in the name.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,126 #116 January 28, 2013 QuoteObama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learnedWhat happened to "Actions speak louder than words?" What actual actions has he taken that has reduced the availability of guns? I think some people are idiots and don't deserve to breathe. Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. Even if I were the President, I wouldn't. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #117 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteObama is after the guns Years of what he has said about it is out there to be learnedWhat happened to "Actions speak louder than words?" What actual actions has he taken that has reduced the availability of guns? I think some people are idiots and don't deserve to breathe. Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. Even if I were the President, I wouldn't. Wendy P. He is not up for re-election Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead Maybe you wouldnt But he is"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #118 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteGun ownership has increased decreased and according to the FBI violent crime has been decreasing. US Gun Ownership US Murder & Robbery rates I can't speak about causation, but the correlation appears to be there. You got a cool little gragh here Got the data and questions behind it? I would like to take a look at it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #119 January 28, 2013 QuoteSo how come the inverse is not also true? Legalize all guns and you'll have fewer illegal ones. Think about what you just wrote. QuoteEliminate speed limits and you'll have fewer speeders. Legalize drunk driving and you'll have fewer DUIs. Same logic. Not quite the same logic but yes, how is a "speeder" defined? By the posted speed limit of course. Not by what YOU would call "speeding". Same for the DUIs.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #120 January 28, 2013 QuoteQuoteSome may be criminals that are not going to answer truthfully. That's certainly a possibility, though such a small (relatively speaking) population is exceedingly unlikely to affect the results enough that an increasing trend would become a decreasing trend. You like surveys How about a more recent one QuoteSelf-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993 QuotePRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx What say you now?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #121 January 28, 2013 Quote Well just as literally, it IS true. Legalize all guns, and by definition, there are NO illegal guns. THAT is his whole point. Just think about it. If it is impossible to own a gun illegally, how can there be illegal guns? ETA: I didn't bother addressing the other examples since this is a gun related thread, but the same logic applies. Dang it! I was hoping he would follow it on through to realize his own error. But you let the cat out of the bag. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #122 January 28, 2013 QuoteThe polls and surveys regarding gun ownership could be entirely wrong. It just depends on who responds and how truthful they are. I think many gun owners would not respond and that would skew the numbers. How is the up- or down-swing of ownership, however one defines it, relevant to us as a population? And, no, I do not see any evidence of causation in the comparisons of guns vs crime "studies".My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #123 January 28, 2013 Quote Quite true. Look, for example, at how the deft use of polls enhanced the reliability of John Rich's threads. Enhanced? oh...you were being sarcastic. I get it now. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #124 January 28, 2013 There are actually no illegal guns now. There are instances of illegal possession. But the guns themselves are perfectly legal...including machineguns. Just being a grammar Nazi. I knew what was meant.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #125 January 28, 2013 Quote And I still think the internet & media are a bigger cause of the current gun & ammo shortage than Obama is -- it's the fear being spread that makes people buy more than they normally would have, and that's what leads to short-term shortages. Wendy P. Oh, hell...did you get hammered by the "It's the NRA's fault! They are the ones spreading fear that's driving the mad rush on weapons and ammo." My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
