Ron Paul

[BoogeyMan 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

You're just now coming to that conclusion?

Had you never seen him speak before?

Tonight is the first time I have listened to Ron Paul. RP is out of touch with the reality of, not only America, but modern times. His foreign policy sounds eerily like Neville Chamberlain's triumph, circa 1939, in Munich.

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

The guy definitely has a different approach, but his points are well thought out if you actually listen to his arguments, unlike everyone else who just panders the fears of the general public because we've always been told to think a certain a way.

Its not like the guy can be president forever and completely demilitarize the world. But we are in a budget crisis that cannot be touched, until we start to drastically pull back our military influence.

I'll never understand how anybody could say Ron Paul doesn't have a clue. He's the only damned GOP candidate we've had in a long time that actually has a freakin clue. The rest that think we can somehow touch our budget crisis without drastically changing our foreign policy are living in la la land. The future consequences of our current budget crisis and impending economic collapse is far beyond what a handful of boogeymen in the middle east could ever accomplish against our country.

Can't agree with the statement that more service members support RP than any other. My personal interaction with our fantastic troops leads me to believe otherwise. You are dead on about trusting our troops opinion, as it's their asses on the line, when the SHTF.
If you are aware of what RP's policy is, other than his stock avoid war or stop war catch all phrases, please relate them to we the readers here.
Unilateral declarations are not only useless, but enabling to one's enemies. Hell, man, anyone can put up a bill board on a hiway. Good reading, like the old time Burma Shave boards, but without any weight, or impact. Dust in the wind.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Thank you. Your response was a little better than mine.

no, your's was much more courteous

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Seriously? You think "trust their opinion" = "dictate policy"?

lol, obviously in your haste in trying to slam me, you didn't read the whole quote.

When sombody states that, on foreign policy, they trust the opinion of servicemen and women more than anyone else's, it is a fair question to ask.

Quote

You think "servicemen and women" (individuals that typically interface more with foreign cultures than others) = "the military" (the establishment)?

Pretty sure that establishment is made up of service men and women.

no, I read the whole thing. It wasn't a slam (I like your attitude, it's direct), though it was irritating to see you extend that comment way out line - and clearly on purpose

1 - A statement of opinion that he considers the servicemen to be 'best' qualified over others has a good basis considering that many travel quite extensively and see everything in other cultures over just the tourists see. Agree or not, it's a fair comment.

2 - As for the "establishment" vs "individuals that serve", if you don't see (or want to see) the distinction, I don't want to waste time explaining it to you, those thing degenerate into just a 'who's going to win some pointless semantics game.

But I don't consider that pointing out that we should hear and respect the opinions of the guys on the ground to be even close to equivalent to claiming that the leadership of the military should dictate policy. That's big stretch and intentional misread.

even for you. I really just wonder where you planned to go with that. if anywhere. Who would you consider to have reality based opinion on foreign nations "more than anyone else's"?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diverborg 0]

Quote

Quote

Should their opinion be taken into consideration when we are discussing presidential candidate's views on foreign policy?

Maybe on the military aspect of foreign policy. There is a lot more to foreign policy than the military.

Fair enough, but wouldn't you think they would at least have as much wisdom if not slightly more in the other areas of foreign policy than perhaps the rest of the general populace of GOP voters who base their opinions largely on what the Fox news tells them.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

Got a cite for that that doesn't originate with the RP campaign?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Maybe on the military aspect of foreign policy. There is a lot more to foreign policy than the military.

I don't think military personnel that are overseas simply exposed to solely military issues. They are over there in aid and rescue capacity, they meet and teach medical personnel, they use time off and explore local culture and meet the children and the citizens of other cultures.

Who really gets to actually learn about the foreign cultures in all aspects better? Skydivers that travel to boogies? effete snobs from urban cities that go visit restaurants in Paris and London and then claim to be uber-travellers?

I'd give the nod to peace corp members, and missionaries, and others that actually get down and dirty with the foreign populace. Military people meet that description pretty well.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diverborg 0]

Quote

Quote

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

Got a cite for that that doesn't originate with the RP campaign?

I do not, yet... I have seen the figure quoted on more than one media outlet, including fox news whose sole mission is to discredit Paul. I'll see what I can dig up.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

Got a cite for that that doesn't originate with the RP campaign?

I do not, yet... I have seen the figure quoted on more than one media outlet, including fox news whose sole mission is to discredit Paul. I'll see what I can dig up.

If you want to taken seriously in this, you may want to drop the strawman statements, as well.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,128]

Quote

I really just wonder where you planned to go with that. if anywhere.

I wasn't trying to "go anywhere" with it. I was asking for some clarification. Specially since I see foreign policy as something much grander than just military operations.

Hence my confusion with the concept of service men and women. Since, if we are just talking about the front line troops, then no, I don't think that their travel has any bearing on foreign policy on the Presidential and Government level. When we talk about them as the whole establishment or apparatus, then yes, they have a bearing and form a part of the overall foreign policy.

Should we listen to our service members, off course we should. However, since they are the ones on the front lines and the ones we ask to lay down their lives for us, their opinion is also somewhat biased.

Hence my questions on trusting their opinion more than anyone else's.

[SkyDekker 1,128]

Quote

Fair enough, but wouldn't you think they would at least have as much wisdom if not slightly more in the other areas of foreign policy than perhaps the rest of the general populace of GOP voters who base their opinions largely on what the Fox news tells them.

I think that statement is just too general. I think you take their general sentiment, and mix it with the diplomat's sentiment and throw in a little aid worker and then try and make your own opinion.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

Got a cite for that that doesn't originate with the RP campaign?

I do not, yet... I have seen the figure quoted on more than one media outlet, including fox news whose sole mission is to discredit Paul. I'll see what I can dig up.

If you want to taken seriously in this, you may want to drop the strawman statements, as well.

Can you explain to me what exactly I said that would qualify as a strawman?

Of course a google search is going to bring up the first ten pages of pro-Ron Paul sites quoting that, but I did find where one of those sites quoted USA Today on campain donations from military servicemen and women.

Quote

“Paul raised $34,480 from people in the military, compared with $19,849 for Obama and $13,848 for the other GOP presidential candidates.” — USA Today

Don't know how dated those stats are, and given those are fairly insignificant amounts its hard to draw a full conclusion on that, but it's likely a good indicator of his support.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/07/ron-paul-military-campaign-donations-/1

[Channman 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The irony of your username for me is hilarious.

She proclaimed that the IAEA report said they were months away from a Nuclear weapon, and therefore we should be gearing up to engage them in war. He said the IAEA report didn't say that, it only implied it and it implied it through shoddy and suspect logical reasoning.

Again, you disagree philosophically with his philosophy that we should stop being the world police. Fine, then say that, but call him stupid. I for one don't think that a nation being in possession of heavy water should ever be grounds for an act of aggression by the United States.

The men and women who are on the front lines of these wars we are in overwhelmingly support this man. The established political entities in this country seem to be determined to convince us that he is un-electable. And even if you challenge those assertions, you cannot deny that of all candidates, Obama included, Ron Paul is determined to avoid another war. I will vote for Ron Paul for that reason alone. The blood of too many innocents in on all of our hands, when our government takes our money and wages war in our name and kills innocents, the blood is on our hands.

Say no to war, say yes to Ron.

Ron Paul called MB a liar, saying the report didn't exist. Ron Paul, like Neville chamberlain, says clearly that he is an appeaser. The 25 million killed in WW2 offer grim testimony to the folly of Chamberlain's philosophy. RP has no solutions other than to run away, or nonsensically apply a standard of negotiation unilaterally with renegade, oppressive , dictatorial, governments and terrorist organizations as if they were honorable established lawful governments. Ridiculous.
There were no "implied' conclusions in the IAEA report I read. The report was too concise and mentioned only established events confirmed by either Iranian communique, or confirmed written observations and field reports from IAEA specialists.
As far as the heavy water in the hands of an outlaw nation that is an established exporter of world wide terrorism, the reader, may draw their own conclusions as to what end the Iranians are headed. The UN, and it's Security Council, including the Russians and Chinese disagree with your evaluation. Check out the Security Council diary if you wish.
Being a veteran and also active in many Veterans events every year in Washington DC, Ft. Campbell, Ft. Bragg, and around the nation I disagree with your "overwhelming support" claim. I haven't seen it or witnessed anything that would bear out your statement from my interactions with our active duty troops..
I don't know who the "established political entities" are that you claim to know about. Yes, we agree that RP is determined to avoid another war. His 1960's, hippy-esque view of the world would be laughable, except that too many troopers die and end up in wheel chairs or missing limbs exactly because of attitudes like his.
RP's answer to dealing with an enemy, who has already killed US service members, is unknown. When asked, he goes off on a prepackaged quasi-speech about avoiding war. RP doesn't answer how he would protect the nation as president, other than to to start spouting antiwar gibberish when he was asked the question.
I don't think RP is stupid. Misguided, unaware, uninformed, egotistical....... I'm positive that he is a dandy grandfather.
Voting is the best thing for all of us to do.

Not sure, but Ron Paul, did he mention that the attacks on the WTC were an Inside Job? Meet the man on two seperate occassions, but I can't find it within me to support him as a President.

Excellent.......!!! You have actually met RP. Please share with we readers here your impressions. I have never met him, but I also know that what we see on the tube is not the total package.
Thx
B-man.

Very pleasant man, now that I think about it I acturally meet him 4 time maybe more, although the first few times I was a teenager. I worked as a press runner in my youth, for a Dem. Robert Gammage (Bob) who defeated Congressmen Ron Paul if I remember correctly in 1976 and served in congress from 1977 until 1979 when he lost to Ron Paul in the 78 election. Hell now that I reflect back on this time in my life, I also meet and shook hands with President Jimmy Carter and First Lady in a reception line during a meet and great dinner.

I think back on those days as a young kid and might post some photo of those days, after dusting off some photo albums. Meet Ron Paul again many years later at two of those evil Tea Party Rallies. Have some awesome photo of tthose events as well along with some Astronaut friends I worked with at the time. One of those events took place at Clear Lake Park near the Lakes Bulk Head. Astronaut Mario Runco got a little to close and slipped and feel into the very cold water.

We laughed about that for sometime, even when we were underwater at the Neutral Buoyancy Lab "Sonny Carter" facility and I was his Safety Diver he would bring that up. But in the Extravehicular Mobility Unit (EMU) Space Suit this time he was safe and dry.

[diverborg 0]

Quote

Quote

Fair enough, but wouldn't you think they would at least have as much wisdom if not slightly more in the other areas of foreign policy than perhaps the rest of the general populace of GOP voters who base their opinions largely on what the Fox news tells them.

I think that statement is just too general. I think you take their general sentiment, and mix it with the diplomat's sentiment and throw in a little aid worker and then try and make your own opinion.

Yes its a very general statement, but I'm not claiming that our military personnel are more knowledgeable than a diplomat. I'm claiming that in general I think it would be tough to deny they're more knowledgeable than the general voting populace. You don't have to believe that sentiment if you don't want to.

[rehmwa 2]

thanks, I understand you, now.

I think, in general, you are undervaluing the sophistication of our service members - but I'm probably reading too much into your notes. Especially when I see the reasonable comment that you are noting that you take everyone's opinion that you think is valid to form yours.

It's just a matter of how each of us chooses to generally weight those opinions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BoogeyMan 0]

I just spent too much time at Ron Paul's campaign site reading his much vetted and approved views, opinions and so forth. He has none. He speaks in broad generalizations. Has no plans. Has no plan on how to pay for his vague, grand semi-ideas. Has no alternatives to our huge, intrusive government. Says he wants to investigate the Fed. So what? So does the current Kongress, which is being stone walled ( much like the DOJ, Eric holder and Fast and Furious is doing) with cover from the White House. Apparently, Ron Paul is the Champion of the Obvious, and hangs his hat on the broadest mass appeal points he can find, without taking a stance anyplace. We already had one of those type Presidents; Carter, and 30 plus years later we are still reaping the negative repercussions.
RP may be a fine, moral man, but a strong leader, he is not.

[jdfreefly 1]

Quote

Ron Paul called MB a liar, saying the report didn't exist.

He did not say the report didn't exist. He said the report didn't make the statement that they were months away from acquiring a nuclear weapon. He then expounded on the point by stating that the report implied it and that the implication was baseless.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[kelpdiver 2]

For those that miss NerdGirl, she posted this link elsewhere today:

http://ashleyfmiller.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/why-does-anyone-like-ron-paul/

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

RP is out of touch with the reality of, not only America, but modern times.

Yep. He actually wants to try something different from the present reality we have. Which sucks ass.

I'll vote for him BECAUSE he wants to try a different reality.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Channman 2]

Quote

Quote

RP is out of touch with the reality of, not only America, but modern times.

Yep. He actually wants to try something different from the present reality we have. Which sucks ass.

I'll vote for him BECAUSE he wants to try a different reality.

Say its not so Law-Man, say its not so.

[BoogeyMan 0]

Quote

Quote

RP is out of touch with the reality of, not only America, but modern times.

Yep. He actually wants to try something different from the present reality we have. Which sucks ass.

I'll vote for him BECAUSE he wants to try a different reality.

But what does RP want to try? I was all over his site, and listened to the debates. I hear nuttin' from him but generic, standard "elect me" jargon. No plan. Nothing creative or even profound. Nothing other than the "war is bad" cliche'.
I'm wondering if this election will be about folks voting for the candidate that they believe will do the least damage to our country.
BTW........ Where's Amazon? By this time Amazon is on us like white on rice.

[BoogeyMan 0]

Quote

Quote

Ron Paul called MB a liar, saying the report didn't exist.

He did not say the report didn't exist. He said the report didn't make the statement that they were months away from acquiring a nuclear weapon. He then expounded on the point by stating that the report implied it and that the implication was baseless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKp6Ej7I2E

Ron Paul did indeed say the report did not exist. He said MB's statement was "totally untrue". RP also said that there was no proof that Iran was enriching fuel.
Watch the link.
I have provided a link to the IAEA report mentioned by MB in an earlier post, which clearly cites that Iran has admitted in communications with the IAEA to enriching fuel, and has stated that they will continue to do so.
The more I watch the film of the debate, the more hysterical RP sounds. Statesmanship is not one of RP's strong points.

[popsjumper 2]

Voting record:

http://www.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/296/

Know his history.

Now, having said that, you have to realize that when one votes a particular way on a bill, the vote may be based on what is attached to it.
The simple title of the bill does not tell the whole story.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[quade 3]

Quote

Voting record:
http://www.votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/296/
Know his history.

More like, know some vaugeness about a person's voting record based on generally misnamed bills.

Or haven't we all learned yet that bills frequently are named in wildly inappropriate ways?

I'm guessing a person would have to d a LOT of digging to really understand a person's full voting record.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nanook 1]

Quote

Quote

Food for thought... More of our servicemen and women support Ron Paul over any other GOP candidate and also more than Obama. I'll trust their opinions on foreign policy more than anyone else's for that matter.

Got a cite for that that doesn't originate with the RP campaign?

Yes. I really want to see that too. Because for the most part, I rarely see anyone here who support RP with the exception of a few who work in the network/software area and they are usually strange people.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,402]

>it is the Dems who consistently bitch about those who do not talk as eloquently as they
>think they should.

Uh, OK. I think gibbering idiots generally make poor presidents, yes. In general I prefer the other extreme - people who can make cogent and concise argument to prove their point. Republicans tend to think of these people as boring elitist out-of-touch eggheads. Anything beyond "drill, baby, drill!" becomes too verbose to meet FOX News brevity requirements.

Ron Paul falls under that umbrella. The GOP is trying their best to ignore him because they don't want to have to think too hard. They want their problems reduced to five second sound bites with ten second (absolute maximum) solutions. "End inheritance tax!" About two seconds, great. "Nine nine nine!" Less than two seconds, even better. "Cut entitlement spending!" Two and a half seconds - OK but getting a little long. "Reduce spending to match economic recovery, to avoid the deleterious effects of rapid reductions in government jobs during a recession" - BZZZT! FOX viewers have all switched to American Idol by the time that windbag finishes talking.