quade 3 #51 January 21, 2010 QuoteLike the dogtags that say things like "Methodist" and "Catholic", or like those fellows walking around with a CROSS on their collar, you mean? That's not the government pushing a single religious view but rather them respecting an individual's view. Quote Or maybe the money they're paid in that says "In God We Trust"? The country did just find for about 130 years without it. It wouldn't bother me in the least if it were removed anymore than I'd mourn the loss of all the Masonic crap on the back of the one dollar bill going away. Quote And, of course, the military shouldn't have marching songs that say things like "When I get to Heaven, St. Peter's gonna say" or "If the Army and the Navy ever gaze on Heaven's scenes". I'd do away with them. They send a defeatist message to the troops that even if they somehow manage to live through the hell of war, mamma is still going to beat the crap out of them. And while unit pride may be a good thing, I think it might be better if everyone was playing on the same team for the US rather than squabbling about Army vs Navy vs Marine rivalries.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #52 January 21, 2010 Quote>>I think you should also consider the difference between offensive and >> defensive violence. The former is not justified, while the latter is. < "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your < right cheek, turn the other to him also." Exodus:22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #53 January 21, 2010 QuoteQuote>>I think you should also consider the difference between offensive and >> defensive violence. The former is not justified, while the latter is. < "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your < right cheek, turn the other to him also." Exodus:22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." So the birth of Jesus changed nothing? I thought that was the point of the new testament. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #54 January 21, 2010 >"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall >no blood be shed for him." Yeah, there's lots of stuff like that in the Old Testament. (For example, you are definitely violating God's laws if you eat shellfish, wear glasses in Church or wear cotton/polyester blends.) The New Testament is a better statement of Christian beliefs IMO. And in both cases, isolated quotes are quite misleading. You really have to read the whole thing. And when you do so, you get the clear impression that Christ's message is one of peace and forgiveness, not vengeance or pre-emptive violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #55 January 21, 2010 QuoteThe former is not justified, while the latter is. Sorry man, I dont agree with that. If you find a way to justify violence in your mind and your "enemy" justifies it in his mind, then neither will find peace. Just because something is justified in the mind doesnt mean that it is right... does it?"We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #56 January 21, 2010 Crap, sorry Mike I touched the wrong button and screwed up your post, but here's the correct and in context reply. Mike: QuoteThe government isn't 'pushing a religious view' by buying items from a private company, sorry. quade: QuoteI didn't say there were. Check the thread.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #57 January 21, 2010 QuoteThe country did just find for about 130 years without it. It wouldn't bother me in the least if it were removed anymore than I'd mourn the loss of all the Masonic crap on the back of the one dollar bill going away. Agreed. God is not found on a dollar bill anymore than he is found by not using the correct hand signals while trying to relay a message of peace. Hopefully the more God reveals himself, the more we will see the truth... that the flesh truly does count for nothing."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #58 January 21, 2010 >Like the dogtags that say things like "Methodist" and "Catholic", or like >those fellows walking around with a CROSS on their collar, you mean? Yes. If a Jewish US soldier were forced to wear a dogtag that said "Catholic" or "Islamic" - it would be a problem. If he was forced to wear a cross on his collar, same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #59 January 21, 2010 So who would Jesus shoot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #60 January 21, 2010 QuoteQuotereligion is religion, as a Government we have no business pushing any of them, in even the most oblique manner, nor should any equipment issued to our soldiers. Like the dogtags that say things like "Methodist" and "Catholic", or like those fellows walking around with a CROSS on their collar, you mean. Am glad to see somethings never change, nice strawman. Dog tags show PERSONAL religious preference so that your body it treated with the respect and traditions of the individual. Every soldier decides what, if any such designation is on theirs. Chaplains wear there specific religious symbol but are required to be familiar with all other recognized religious beliefs because doing so is a fundamental part of supporting a military that represents ALL Americans and the religious backgrounds that make up our services. None of those songs are permitted in any official capacity from many many years. This is as it should be, the military is not a place to indoctrinate ANY religious belief.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbwing 0 #61 January 21, 2010 I'm thinking money changers. He really went off on those fuckers when they were in temple that one day... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #62 January 21, 2010 Quote Am glad to see somethings never change, nice strawman. Like YOUR strawman of "ZOMG the military is pushing religion!!!1"? Quote None of those songs are permitted in any official capacity from many many years. That's odd - I don't recall the Marine Corp Hymn being outlawed, and according to my nephew, the Airborne is still using that jody and others. Quote This is as it should be, the military is not a place to indoctrinate ANY religious belief. "ZOMG the military is pushing religion!!!1" Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #63 January 21, 2010 That Jody maybe used in practice, but try singing it in any training environment (where the standards are strictly enforced) and see how fast you get shut down its not supposed to be sung anywhere else either but such habits take a while to get out of any institution. The cry of pushing religion is misplaced, it is having such references on issued equipment is a problem because it encourages the PERCEPTION that the us military is proselytizing, something that is prohibited by law. I'm sure you are aware that actions that contribute to perceptions, even misperceptions are frowned apon and just outright stupid, particularly in an environment where winning to trust of the local populous is critical for success of the mission. As stated above there is no good reason for such references on military issued equipment. There are many good reasons why such things are prohibited.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #64 January 22, 2010 Quote "An unexamined life is not worth living." -- Socrates "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." ~Napoleon BonaparteLook for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #65 January 22, 2010 http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=9618791 Quote Gen. David Petraeus...."disturbing...and a serious concern for me and field commanders."____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #66 January 22, 2010 The mfr is providing a kit to remove them, and will stop incorporating them in future manufacturing.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #67 January 22, 2010 QuoteThe mfr is providing a kit to remove them, and will stop incorporating them in future manufacturing. Well, *that* will assuredly make AQ/Taliban love us now, right? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #68 January 22, 2010 All of you are full of crap. THIS is a Jesus Rifle!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene03 0 #69 January 22, 2010 “The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #70 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe mfr is providing a kit to remove them, and will stop incorporating them in future manufacturing. Well, *that* will assuredly make AQ/Taliban love us now, right? Not the point. It should have never been there in the first place on any equipment sold to the US military, and you can bet the manufacturer knew as much from the beginning. I hope they aren't charging for these 'kits'____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #71 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe mfr is providing a kit to remove them, and will stop incorporating them in future manufacturing. Well, *that* will assuredly make AQ/Taliban love us now, right? Not the point. It should have never been there in the first place on any equipment sold to the US military, and you can bet the manufacturer knew as much from the beginning. Really? Perhaps you can show me the verbiage in the purchase contract that says that, then?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #72 January 22, 2010 QuoteTo me this issue is not one of freedom of speech. It is about shooting ourselves in the foot for no good reason. The baddies want people to believe that we are on a Christian Crusade in their homelands. We all know we are not, but Mohammed who just signed up to join the ANA might not be convinced. Now he gets handed a scope that his buddy tells him is inscribed with a Christian symbol. It is not unreasonable for him to now question the motives of his trainers and the US as a whole. That statement would seem to be logical given the explanation and circumstances. However, having walked up and down the mountains of Afghanistan with members of the ANA and gotten to know individuals in the ANA, most would not mind or care. A good deal of the soldiers in the ANA have had to watch as their family members were either tortured or killed by the taliban and that serves as their impetus to participate in the ANA. One of the the oldest and simplest reasons that has motivated people in some cases, this being one of them, revenge/payback/an eye for an eye is the predominate reason you will hear from those in the ANA. They want payback for their personal losses and they want a better way of life for their families. So I say that your supposition is moot as it contradicts what I know to be the ground truth. The average ANA soldier would be ecstatic to have a weapon sight that better enabled him to engage and defeat his enemy. Besides, if we followed your logic, that would mean they would be opposed to using AK-47s because it's a Russian weapon and we all know thats not the case. I don't care what anyone calls it. Call it a Holy war, thats what it is if you break it down to the basic fundamentals and thats the way the radical Islamic fundamentalists view it. They want to kill everyone who does not think the way they do or those who do not agree with their belief system. For me, I don't care what you want to call it, they want to kill me and the way of life that I and those like me live. If more people could recognize and accept this truth they would realize that we are indeed in a war of existence based on belief systems that they are unwilling to compromise on. I base my statements on my experiences and my interaction with the very same people that see us as the great Satan. I don't form my opinions on what I have read or seen on TV....I have been there and lived it first hand. Understanding this without experiencing it is akin to trying to explain what it is like to skydive to a whuffo who is convinced you cannot breath in freefall. I don't care if you agree or disagree with me or my statement. There are people in this world who deal with the realities and uglier sides of the world so that others may enjoy their way of life, I am one of those people. So call it what ever you want if it helps you sleep at night but it all boils down to "US" against "THEM" and like the Holy Wars, it will likely have the same outcome when all is said and done. Such is the way of things."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #73 January 22, 2010 Yeah, I've been there, too. I didn't work with the ANA, but interacted on a daily basis with Afghans from all walks of life. My job was made harder by people who wanted it to only be "us" vs. "them". Your own experiences show that it is really "us and most of them" vs. "a few of them". Prosthelyzing, in any form, is counter to the mission. The sights work just as well without the inscriptions, so why put them on there? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #74 January 22, 2010 QuoteYeah, I've been there, too. I didn't work with the ANA, but interacted on a daily basis with Afghans from all walks of life. Thats the biggest difference in SF compared to the rest of the Army. We are submersed into the lives and culture of those around us, no matter the country we are working in and live alongside the indigenous people on a daily basis, the rest of the military, not so much. QuoteMy job was made harder by people who wanted it to only be "us" vs. "them". Your own experiences show that it is really "us and most of them" vs. "a few of them". Indeed, it is just the radical islamic fundamentalists that I am referring to as "them". QuoteProsthelyzing, in any form, is counter to the mission. The sights work just as well without the inscriptions, so why put them on there? I can speculate that the long dead owner of the company was a religious man and wanted to spread the word in his own way. Why does In and Out burger place similar religious markings on their product containers? Your guess is as good as mine."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #75 January 22, 2010 QuoteWhy does In and Out burger place similar religious markings on their product containers? Your guess is as good as mine. On the flip side though . . . the markings on the In-N-Out burger wrappers are obvious enough and aren't being shipped to foreign countries. I'm absolutely certain your assessment of US vs Them is correct on the street level based on your experience. However, the terrorist state sponsor countries, notably Saudi Arabia, have completely different views when it comes to the import of religious articles into Muslim countries. Not that it's "right" but rather something people should be aware of. Here's the deal . . . it's NOT whether or not it makes sense to the guys on the front line and it's not whether it makes sense to the indigenous people, but globally, it pisses off some of these "royal" assholes that use it as an additional excuse to fuck with us. I'm not saying it was even wrong. I'm not saying it was intentional to piss anyone off. In fact, I kind of think the way it was done was sort of ingenious. However, once discovered, it was an embarrassment to the over all cause and something that is counter productive. It's a pity, but putting stuff like that on military gear had an unintended consequence many years after the owner thought it was a cute idea. And . . . looking at the passages in question . . . I'm sure that's all it was. Still, in the time we live in, it has to go.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
