GWB: "..his head held high.."

[riddler 0]

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Regretting the WMD intelligence can still mean an endorsement of the PNAC rationale - in fact, reinforce it.

The "intelligence" for going into Iraq was nothing more than a flimsy facade. Here is the guy that supposedly gave the U.S. it's intelligence to go into Iraq. The German intelligence bureau warned the US that their source, "Curveball", was nothing more than a congenetal liar that was trying to get a greencard into Germany. Not even a really stupid President would use this source of information (one guy, with a rep as beng "crazy" and "out-of-control") to send 4,000 American troops to their deaths.

Bush already wanted to go into Iraq. He was willing to use even the thinnest, unjustifiable excuse to do it. In the wake of 9/11, he got all the support he needed from Congress, and no one bothered to check the story.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[LyraM45 0]

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And stupid ass conspiracy theorists such as myself, were ridiculed by patriotic americans when in late 2002/2003 were calling bullshit on WMD, calling murderer to GWB and look what happens 6 years later.....

So many of you in here were so behind the war that you couldn't make sense out of relity.

That murdering fuckwit GWB and his sidekicks should all be taken to the haugue for war crimes and punished severely.

Apathy from brainwashed americans is the main reason people like that do things such as they have.

Pull your head in people.

Put me in this corner too!! A few years ago I wrote a blog about how GWB was full of shit, there were no WMD's, and he was using it as an excuse to finish Daddy's war and while he's at his little personal game killing thousands of American soldiers in the process. I also stated we should have never been in Iraq, and all those young troops, some my friends, signed up to go to war to fight Osama after 9/11 and then they find out they are going to Iraq to do something that has nothing to do with the massive attack that just killed thousands of people in NY. And the conservatives, republicans, and war backers say the morale was low because of the liberal media... phhbbtt! For this, I was called things such as UNPATRIOTIC, MILITARY HATER, UNAMERICAN, etc. And now look, everybody else is seeing the light! I guess it's not so "unpatriotic" anymore, huh?

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[marks2065 0]

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>The problem I have is taking all of the blame and laying it on the President.

I agree. There is more than enough blame to go around; putting it all on the president is as foolish as putting it all on the residents.

why not put it on the residents? why do people always want to blame everyone but themselves? these people elected the local government that screwed them and they were to stupid to leave. when a tornado hits people have only minutes to prtect themselves but this was a cat 5 huricane with days of warning, these people put themselves at danger and deserve what happened to them for not leaving.

also they could have done more to help themselves, like help each other out and clean up after themselves. did anyone one here see the pictures and hear the stories about how lazy and ungratefull these people were? see the mess they left in the shelters? use the $2000 credit card they got for vacations instead of putting their lives back together? they could have bought clothes and food.

[FallingOsh 0]

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why not put it on the residents? why do people always want to blame everyone but themselves? these people elected the local government that screwed them and they were to stupid to leave. when a tornado hits people have only minutes to prtect themselves but this was a cat 5 huricane with days of warning, these people put themselves at danger and deserve what happened to them for not leaving.

also they could have done more to help themselves, like help each other out and clean up after themselves. did anyone one here see the pictures and hear the stories about how lazy and ungratefull these people were? see the mess they left in the shelters? use the $2000 credit card they got for vacations instead of putting their lives back together? they could have bought clothes and food.

While I agree with most of your post, some did not have the means to leave. That's why I get pissed at the local government. Nagin didn't do shit to evacuate his city and the governor did even less.

The BS that went on in New Orleans in the days after is also why I laugh at people who blame Bush. Remember the choppers carrying supplies who were shot at by people on the ground?

There's plenty of "blame." Residents chose not to help themselves or took the opportunity to run wild. The local government didn't facilitate evacuations. FEMA leadership was disgusting. People at home in front of their TVs think humans can actually fight or be blamed for a category 5 hurricane.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[sdctlc 0]

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how can you blame Bush for the local government not evacuating when they had been told they should? or not reporting the levee brakes to the federal government and asking for help?

Because the mayor and gov. were dems. That exempts them from blame from the left.

Now that statement is Funny! I wonder if in 1.5 years from now with a Dem Congress and Executive branch if problems that will surely still be lingering will still be Bush's fault. IF the economic downturn is being blamed on the Subprime mortgage market and that has snowballed to the point we are now, I seem to remember that the deregulation for that happened under Clinton..

Did Bush make mistakes, sure along with every other president but I don't think he is the 2 headed monster turned scapegoat that the bandwagon wants to make him out to be.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[SpeedRacer 1]

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how can you blame Bush for the local government not evacuating when they had been told they should? or not reporting the levee brakes to the federal government and asking for help?

Because the mayor and gov. were dems. That exempts them from blame from the left.

Now that statement is Funny! I wonder if in 1.5 years from now with a Dem Congress and Executive branch if problems that will surely still be lingering will still be Bush's fault. IF the economic downturn is being blamed on the Subprime mortgage market and that has snowballed to the point we are now, I seem to remember that the deregulation for that happened under Clinton..

Did Bush make mistakes, sure along with every other president but I don't think he is the 2 headed monster turned scapegoat that the bandwagon wants to make him out to be.

Scott C.

Both sides pull the same bullshit. The right wingers on here blame everything bad that happened during the Bush administration on Bill Clinton.

Speed Racer
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[sdctlc 0]

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Both sides pull the same bullshit. The right wingers on here blame everything bad that happened during the Bush administration on Bill Clinton.

that is my point... Plenty of Blame to go around for both Dems and Republicans. That said blaming Bush for stubbing your toe at night in the dark does not make much sense. Personal responsibility would go a long way in the economic troubles of today as well as the much debated Katrina problems..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[wmw999 2,129]

Here is another perspective on why we went into Iraq. My BF read this recently, and was most impressed. I haven't gotten to it yet, but it makes a case.

Part of the basis is that ensuring availability of oil for the US, and the lack thereof for China, was a significant contributor to the Iraq war. And that oil price manipulation has been a tool for years (which is probably a really safe statement).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

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Here is another perspective on why we went into Iraq. My BF read this recently, and was most impressed. I haven't gotten to it yet, but it makes a case.

Part of the basis is that ensuring availability of oil for the US, and the lack thereof for China, was a significant contributor to the Iraq war. And that oil price manipulation has been a tool for years (which is probably a really safe statement).

Anyone who actually believed that we went to Iraq because of WMD and liberating the Iraqis ( Operation Iraqi Freedom.... so Orwellian NewSpeak) has just enough intelligence to rank as a moron.

It was ALWAYS about the oil.... and the PNAC told the American people they were going there one way or another... dead americans are just pawns to be used for their geo-political and personal financial goals.

[riddler 0]

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Here is another perspective on why we went into Iraq. My BF read this recently, and was most impressed. I haven't gotten to it yet, but it makes a case.

Looks like a good book, even if mostly speculation, it might be pretty good speculation.

In college, about *cough* 15 years ago, I wrote a paper for a class on armed conflict. My engineering college didn't even have English classes, but they had war classes (in the old days, it was a military school). Anyway, the paper was called "The future of war, economic war", which my professor gave me an A- on, because he thought it was "boring". I believe that are smart people that are directing political agendas via economic price control, even when we are not officially at war.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[billvon 2,406]

>why not put it on the residents?

Like I said, some blame _should_ be on the residents.

>these people put themselves at danger and deserve what happened to
>them for not leaving.

So the 90 year old woman without a car has only herself to blame for not hiking out? The mother of 4 with the broken down car has only herself to blame for not being able to flee as well as the couple down the street with the SUV and the trailer?

>why do people always want to blame everyone but themselves?

Human nature. And that's true whether you are GWB, FEMA, the state government, or the people themselves. They all want to escape responsibility; they all bear some of it.

> did anyone one here see the pictures and hear the stories about
> how lazy and ungratefull these people were?

Did you see any of the stories about the people who went back in to rebuild their city after its destruction? Or do you only see what you want to see?

[marks2065 0]

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>why not put it on the residents?

Like I said, some blame _should_ be on the residents.

>these people put themselves at danger and deserve what happened to
>them for not leaving.

So the 90 year old woman without a car has only herself to blame for not hiking out? The mother of 4 with the broken down car has only herself to blame for not being able to flee as well as the couple down the street with the SUV and the trailer?

>why do people always want to blame everyone but themselves?

Human nature. And that's true whether you are GWB, FEMA, the state government, or the people themselves. They all want to escape responsibility; they all bear some of it.

> did anyone one here see the pictures and hear the stories about
> how lazy and ungratefull these people were?

Did you see any of the stories about the people who went back in to rebuild their city after its destruction? Or do you only see what you want to see?

do you remember the floods a few years back in north Dakota? there was no $2000 visa card and other fed gov welfare. The people there took in their nieghbors, helped them cope, gave them food, and the community helped rebuild for those that lost everything. with the distruction from Katrina and the workforce available, there should have been no unemployment. Everyone could have helped themselves by getting a job helping to clean and rebuild the area instead they stood around griping that the fed gov was to slow, to inefficient, and didn't care for them. sorry but even uneduacated idiots knew that if you live 20 feet below sea level and a cat 5 huricane is coming there might be a problem headed your way.

[billvon 2,406]

>do you remember the floods a few years back in north Dakota? there
>was no $2000 visa card and other fed gov welfare.

If you mean the 1997 floods in North Dakota, the people there received $171 million from the federal government, or about $28,500 per damaged home. Over ten times the $2000 visa card you mentioned.

> sorry but even uneduacated idiots knew that if you live 20 feet below
> sea level and a cat 5 huricane is coming there might be a problem
> headed your way.

And even uneducated idiots know that if you live near a river that floods regularly, you're going to lose your home.

[nerdgirl 0]

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do you remember the floods a few years back in north Dakota? there was no $2000 visa card and other fed gov welfare. The people there took in their nieghbors, helped them cope, gave them food, and the community helped rebuild for those that lost everything. with the distruction from Katrina and the workforce available, there should have been no unemployment. Everyone could have helped themselves by getting a job helping to clean and rebuild the area instead they stood around griping that the fed gov was to slow, to inefficient, and didn't care for them. sorry but even uneduacated idiots knew that if you live 20 feet below sea level and a cat 5 huricane is coming there might be a problem headed your way.

It sounds like you might have some personal connection to the North Dakota floods (just guessing, nothing perjorative meant) in which you saw or perhaps heard directly the type of community behavior cited ? Why do you think that was more prevalent in ... or perceived as more prevalent (since I don't have any real data to base an assertion on, perhaps you can provide a link?) ... in North Dakota?


While it may be true that there were not debit cards distributed after the 1997, 2000, & 2001 North Dakota floods, it is untrue to assert/imply that there was not substantial federal assistance made available and distributed to those affected. In addition to what Bill noted, FEMA site on North Dakota floods of 2001 with information of counties and individual assistance.

Following the 1997 flood, >$495 million dollars in federal assistance (“federal welfare”) through FEMA was distributed to North Dakota communities. That included 21,846 residents of Grand Forks County who received $44.8 million in assistance through FEMA's Disaster Housing Assistance (similar program that made available debit cards post-Katrina).

President Bush ordered federal disaster aid for the counties affected. “Funds were authorized under the major disaster declaration issued by President Bush on May 28 and made available through FEMA's Public Assistance program for state and local governments.”

After the 2000 North Dakota floods, Governor John Hoeven called for $66.7 million in federal assistance.

In 2003, one of North Dakota’s Senators, [url http://conrad.senate.gov/pressroom/record.cfm?id=276012]Sen Kent Conrad, requested FEMA pay over $717,000 in repairs for damage to buildings at the University of North Dakota.

There’s almost no place in the US and no State that has not received federal assistance through FEMA over the years.

Floods in North Dakota are almost as predictable ... or perhaps inevitable is a better word choice ... as hurricanes impacting the Gulf Coast.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[FallingOsh 0]

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Here is another perspective on why we went into Iraq. My BF read this recently, and was most impressed. I haven't gotten to it yet, but it makes a case.

Part of the basis is that ensuring availability of oil for the US, and the lack thereof for China, was a significant contributor to the Iraq war. And that oil price manipulation has been a tool for years (which is probably a really safe statement).

Anyone who actually believed that we went to Iraq because of WMD and liberating the Iraqis ( Operation Iraqi Freedom.... so Orwellian NewSpeak) has just enough intelligence to rank as a moron.

It was ALWAYS about the oil.... and the PNAC told the American people they were going there one way or another... dead americans are just pawns to be used for their geo-political and personal financial goals.

Then why did gas prices sky rocket up until a month ago? Any idea what percentage of oil is imported from Iraq? How many oil wells does America now own in Iraq? If we were actually in control of Iraqi oil then breaking OPEC would probably be a top priority. They just reduced production by 1 million barrells a day to drive prices back up.

I'd be interested to know what Marg thinks about that claim.

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[shropshire 0]

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Then why did gas prices sky rocket up until a month ago?

Because the government doesn't give a shit about you and your wallet - It's not about YOU.

It may give a damn about longer term access to oil though.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[FallingOsh 0]

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Human nature. And that's true whether you are GWB, FEMA, the state government, or the people themselves. They all want to escape responsibility; they all bear some of it.

In the spirit of the thread title and arguing semantics, GW accepted full responsibility while Nagin turned it into a race issue. Contrary to popular belief, not all N.O. residents blamed Bush.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Then why did gas prices sky rocket up until a month ago?

Because the government doesn't give a shit about you and your wallet - It's not about YOU.

It may give a damn about longer term access to oil though.

According to SOFA, we'll be out by 2011. How do we access the oil then? Actually, how are we accessing it now? The table I posted showed less than 4% of our oil was imported from Iraq in 2007. If long term access to oil was the only goal, I think Venezuela would've been an easier target.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[billvon 2,406]

>while Nagin turned it into a race issue.

Nagin: "I'm the mayor, and I take responsibility for some things we could've done better, like calling for a mandatory evacuation a little earlier. I had a 10- hour window. Making sure that we had multiple evacuation routes and vehicles. And in addition to that, overly dependent upon the federal government and the state. I take full responsibility for that."

>not all N.O. residents blamed Bush.

Exactly. It's easy to just see the stories of the lazy woman with 5 kids who blames Bush for everything, rather than the majority of the people who have a much wider perspective on things.

[FallingOsh 0]

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>while Nagin turned it into a race issue.

Nagin: "I'm the mayor, and I take responsibility for some things we could've done better, like calling for a mandatory evacuation a little earlier. I had a 10- hour window. Making sure that we had multiple evacuation routes and vehicles. And in addition to that, overly dependent upon the federal government and the state. I take full responsibility for that."

In remarks to the annual meeting of the National Association of Black Journalists, Nagin said the hurricane "exposed the soft underbelly of America as it relates to dealing with race and class."

"And I, to this day, believe that if that would have happened in Orange County, California, if that would have happened in South Beach, Miami, it would have been a different response," the mayor said.

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>not all N.O. residents blamed Bush.

Exactly. It's easy to just see the stories of the lazy woman with 5 kids who blames Bush for everything, rather than the majority of the people who have a much wider perspective on things.

Agreed

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Stay positive and love your life.

[billvon 2,406]

"And I, to this day, believe that if that would have happened in Orange County, California, if that would have happened in South Beach, Miami, it would have been a different response," the mayor said.
>"And I, to this day, believe that if that would have happened in Orange County,
>California, if that would have happened in South Beach, Miami, it would have
>been a different response," the mayor said.

That's certainly true; there would have been more money at risk, and more pressure on the government to get things done quickly. And there's no doubt there was a racial aspect to the media coverage of the event. But again, that is not WHY it happened - just parts of the whole issue.

[Royd 0]

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To quote Oliver Hardy; "This is another fine mess you've gotten us into!" That's about all I can say about 'Dub-ya'. Now, Obama gets to clean it all up! It's not going to be an easy row to hoe.

Let's hope that the Southside of Chicago isn't Obama's example of how to handle an out of control situation.

[masterrig 1]

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To quote Oliver Hardy; "This is another fine mess you've gotten us into!" That's about all I can say about 'Dub-ya'. Now, Obama gets to clean it all up! It's not going to be an easy row to hoe.

Let's hope that the Southside of Chicago isn't Obama's example of how to handle an out of control situation.

Seems to me, a lot of folks in this country are putting their hopes on Obama. We'll just have to see what happens.
I'm not familiar with Obama's involvement in regard to the Southside of Chicago. Wouldn't that be Mayor Daley's problem? Dunno...


Chuck

[leroydb 0]

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NONSENSE - the war was started under false pretenses, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

False or not, the world is better off without Sadam. The news does not portray it, but the majority of people in Iraq are happy that we "liberated" them. They may or may not not agree with everything we have done, or how we accomplished it, nonetheless. Either way, my view from what I have seen and places I have been, is that the world is better off more now than before.

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[kallend 1,635]

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NONSENSE - the war was started under false pretenses, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

False or not, the world is better off without Sadam. The news does not portray it, but the majority of people in Iraq are happy that we "liberated" them. They may or may not not agree with everything we have done, or how we accomplished it, nonetheless. Either way, my view from what I have seen and places I have been, is that the world is better off more now than before.

Are the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis better off? How about the 4500 dead Americans? How about the taxpayers who will have shelled out $1 trillion before it's all over?

The ends justify the means is a very dangerous argument.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.