sundevil777 93 #51 June 28, 2007 That pic you posted with the refugees supposedly being pushed into the sea is a myth: QuoteMYTH "The Jews created the refugee problem by expelling the Palestinians." FACT Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel. The responsibility for the refugee problem rests with the Arabs. The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends.6 By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal their borders against them.7 On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."8 Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages.'"9 Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many [Arab] residents to leave the city under the protection of British tanks."10 John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war."11 Contemporary press reports of major battles in which large numbers of Arabs fled conspicuously fail to mention any forcible expulsion by the Jewish forces. The Arabs are usually described as "fleeing" or "evacuating" their homes. While Zionists are accused of "expelling and dispossessing" the Arab inhabitants of such towns as Tiberias and Haifa, the truth is much different. Both of those cities were within the boundaries of the Jewish State under the UN partition scheme and both were fought for by Jews and Arabs alike. Jewish forces seized Tiberias on April 19, 1948, and the entire Arab population of 6,000 was evacuated under British military supervision. The Jewish Community Council issued a statement afterward: "We did not dispossess them; they themselves chose this course....Let no citizen touch their property."12 In early April, an estimated 25,000 Arabs left the Haifa area following an offensive by the irregular forces led by Fawzi al-Qawukji, and rumors that Arab air forces would soon bomb the Jewish areas around Mt. Carmel.13 On April 23, the Haganah captured Haifa. A British police report from Haifa, dated April 26, explained that "every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."14 In fact, David Ben-Gurion had sent Golda Meir to Haifa to try to persuade the Arabs to stay, but she was unable to convince them because of their fear of being judged traitors to the Arab cause.15 By the end of the battle, more than 50,000 Palestinians had left. “Tens of thousands of Arab men, women and children fled toward the eastern outskirts of the city in cars, trucks, carts, and afoot in a desperate attempt to reach Arab territory until the Jews captured Rushmiya Bridge toward Samaria and Northern Palestine and cut them off. Thousands rushed every available craft, even rowboats, along the waterfront, to escape by sea toward Acre.” — New York Times, (April 23, 1948) In Tiberias and Haifa, the Haganah issued orders that none of the Arabs' possessions should be touched, and warned that anyone who violated the orders would be severely punished. Despite these efforts, all but about 5,000 or 6,000 Arabs evacuated Haifa, many leaving with the assistance of British military transports. Syria's UN delegate, Faris el-Khouri, interrupted the UN debate on Palestine to describe the seizure of Haifa as a "massacre" and said this action was "further evidence that the 'Zionist program' is to annihilate Arabs within the Jewish state if partition is effected."16 The following day, however, the British representative at the UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan, told the delegates that the fighting in Haifa had been provoked by the continuous attacks by Arabs against Jews a few days before and that reports of massacres and deportations were erroneous.17 The same day (April 23, 1948), Jamal Husseini, the chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the UN Security Council that instead of accepting the Haganah's truce offer, the Arabs "preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings, and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town."18 The U.S. Consul-General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that "local mufti-dominated Arab leaders" were urging "all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so."19 An army order issued July 6, 1948, made clear that Arab towns and villages were not to be demolished or burned, and that Arab inhabitants were not to be expelled from their homes.20 The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. Yigal Allon, the commander of the Palmach (the "shock force of the Haganah"), said he had Jews talk to the Arabs in neighboring villages and tell them a large Jewish force was in Galilee with the intention of burning all the Arab villages in the Lake Hula region. The Arabs were told to leave while they still had time and, according to Allon, they did exactly that.21 In the most dramatic example, in the Ramle-Lod area, Israeli troops seeking to protect their flanks and relieve the pressure on besieged Jerusalem, forced a portion of the Arab population to go to an area a few miles away that was occupied by the Arab Legion. "The two towns had served as bases for Arab irregular units, which had frequently attacked Jewish convoys and nearby settlements, effectively barring the main road to Jerusalem to Jewish traffic."22 As was clear from the descriptions of what took place in the cities with the largest Arab populations, these cases were clearly the exceptions, accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees. Source: Myths and Facts People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #52 June 28, 2007 QuoteYou're saying that the Palestinians aren't losing anything? I can't say I understand that notion. And the "stronger side" in this case is only stronger because the US has made it so. And Israel is still doing things that the US publicly condemns but apparently privately condones. This is one of the main reasons given by radical Islam for attacking us. Israel is defying the international community, including the US yet no one holds them accountable, because of the US. Israel is defying parts of the international community by continuing to exist. They'll take ongoing existence over universal love. Radical Islam likes to use Israel as a justification, but it's propoganda, no more. > And the "stronger side" in this case is only stronger because the US has made it so. So what? The US is the only superpower because it had oceans protecting it from the destruction of WWII. If you try to mix righteousness with the rules of the jungle, you're going to end up on the short side. Also, Israel got its nuclear program through relationships with France and South Africa, and perhaps some unsanctioned theft of nuclear materials from the US. And no, I don't see the Palestinians losing anything because they collectively won't hold up their end of the compromise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #53 June 28, 2007 One thing I never got about the whole "We Were Here First"/"This is OUR Land" argument... How can "Islam" claim what is Israel as "their" land when it was definitely, without doubt, inhabited by Jews before Islam even existed as a religion??? Sure sure, I know that SOME people argue that it has nothing to do with religion... but most of the world, and seemingly most of the Muslim world doesn't appear to see it that way...Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #54 June 28, 2007 Can we just build a great big wall around the middle east & forget about them? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #55 June 29, 2007 Quote Can we just build a great big wall around the middle east & forget about them? If you (as in americans) would do that, it would be great.. your tax dollars funds the israeli army after all.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #56 June 29, 2007 QuoteOne thing I never got about the whole "We Were Here First"/"This is OUR Land" argument... How can "Islam" claim what is Israel as "their" land when it was definitely, without doubt, inhabited by Jews before Islam even existed as a religion??? Sure sure, I know that SOME people argue that it has nothing to do with religion... but most of the world, and seemingly most of the Muslim world doesn't appear to see it that way... "Islam" is not making that claim. The descendants of the people who lived there are. On both sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #57 June 29, 2007 Quote Quote Can we just build a great big wall around the middle east & forget about them? If you (as in americans) would do that, it would be great.. your tax dollars funds the israeli army after all.. And that, I think, is the key to fixing this problem. Cut off aid to everyone in the region and tell them that it will return only when they get their asses to the negotiating table and hammer out an agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #58 June 29, 2007 Quote"Islam" is not making that claim. The descendants of the people who lived there are. On both sides. So the fact that most muslim crazy groups list Israel as one of their nut-job issues with the world has nothing to do with it? The fact that, regardless of how it started, it has pretty much become divided down religious lines is irrelevant? It may not have started out that way, but it is what it is now.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #59 June 29, 2007 QuoteQuote"Islam" is not making that claim. The descendants of the people who lived there are. On both sides. So the fact that most muslim crazy groups list Israel as one of their nut-job issues with the world has nothing to do with it? The fact that, regardless of how it started, it has pretty much become divided down religious lines is irrelevant? It may not have started out that way, but it is what it is now. Religious lines are an easy way to look at it but when you dig deeper you'll see that that division doesn't really work. There are plenty of Muslim, Jewish and Christian views that apply to both sides. I think that Zionism is actually more of a political movement than a religious one, although certainly not mutually exclusive. One thing I've noticed though, and I think it's why more people don't criticize Israel more, is that the Palestinian militants and Muslim extremists shout out their intentions and desire to take their land back. Israel publicly calls for peace but quietly continues to take the land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #60 June 30, 2007 Sure, we know that Sunnis kill Shia and viceversa and it never, and certainly not the majority of the time is based on religion . Glad you can plainly add to the agrowing antisemitic sentiment, too bad the Fuhrer died 60+ years ago right? "According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #61 July 1, 2007 QuoteQuoteFact: Israel is a racists nation, They have broken more UN sanctions then Iraq, They are noticed around the world and not just by Muslims as an inhumane state. So, what do you want to happen to the illegitimate nation of Israel, and all those inhumane Jews that live there? And after you run the Jews off, who do you want to take over? Fatah? Hamas? Palestinians? Shiites? Sunnis? Kurds? Wahabiists? Egyptians? Syrians? Iranians? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #62 July 2, 2007 QuoteSo, what do you want to happen to the illegitimate nation of Israel, and all those inhumane Jews that live there? Those Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. QuoteAnd after you run the Jews off, who do you want to take over? Fatah? Hamas? Palestinians? Shiites? Sunnis? Kurds? Wahabiists? Egyptians? Syrians? Iranians? I am assuming it would be run by a Palestinian government, and who ever the people wish to elect. That is Democracy right?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #63 July 2, 2007 QuoteThose Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. So what would you do with the Mullahs that encourage children to go blow themselves up on busses and cafes and kill civilians by promising them a place in heaven with 72 virgins.. I am thinking getting a stiffie is more of an Earthly thing to do in all those hymens. If that whole 72 virgins thing is such a good deal.. why are not the mullahs and Imams and palistinian leaders....in a big rush to martyr themselves....hmmmmmm?????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #64 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo, what do you want to happen to the illegitimate nation of Israel, and all those inhumane Jews that live there? Those Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. QuoteAnd after you run the Jews off, who do you want to take over? Fatah? Hamas? Palestinians? Shiites? Sunnis? Kurds? Wahabiists? Egyptians? Syrians? Iranians? I am assuming it would be run by a Palestinian government, and who ever the people wish to elect. That is Democracy right? Only if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #65 July 2, 2007 QuoteIf that whole 72 virgins thing is such a good deal.. why are not the mullahs and Imams and palistinian leaders....in a big rush to martyr themselves....hmmmmmm?????? That’s a wonderful questions that can be asked of all leaders who urge they’re young and often less fortunate citizens to sacrifice their live as they live in mansions. QuoteSo what would you do with the Mullahs that encourage children to go blow themselves up on busses and cafes and kill civilians by promising them a place in heaven with 72 virgins Which ones? The Palestinians. They blow themselves up out of desperation and having every hope taken from them. Giving ones life to fight invaders is considered an honorable act in many cultures. Others who are killing for the sake of killing can go fuck themselves. One of the first suicide bombers was a young Iranian boy who sacrificed his life by going under a tank with explosive. He killed him self to save his fellow men fighting an invading Iraqi Army. I find that an honorable act not a devious one.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #66 July 2, 2007 QuoteOnly if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. A democracy is the rule of the majority not all have to agree. Lets not forget that as soon as democratically elected Hamas took office the Israelis and we made it impossible for them to govern by freezing their assets. This is yet another great example of how we only care for us and what we want, and all the democracy talk and spreading freedom is bullshit for the not to bright sheep.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #67 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteOnly if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. A democracy is the rule of the majority not all have to agree. Lets not forget that as soon as democratically elected Hamas took office the Israelis and we made it impossible for them to govern by freezing their assets. This is yet another great example of how we only care for us and what we want, and all the democracy talk and spreading freedom is bullshit for the not to bright sheep. Neither Israel nor the US is obligated to support any Gov. the Palestinians elect. Why would the Israelis Gov. want to support a Palestinian Gov. that wants them destroyed? BTW the Israelis and the US made it very clear what the Hamas Gov. needed to do so that the Israeli and the US Gov. would support them. Hamas had a choice. Now they are getting what they chose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #68 July 2, 2007 QuoteOne of the first suicide bombers was a young Iranian boy who sacrificed his life by going under a tank with explosive. He killed him self to save his fellow men fighting an invading Iraqi Army. I find that an honorable act not a devious one. That has been replayed many many times by SOLDIERS... giving thier lives for their bretheren... and killing theopposing ARMY The Palistinian murderers are not hitting an opposing force.. then are killing innocents.. in pursuit of their daily lives. The Isralies strike back with force against the LEADERS who are sending trhe stupid young people who have told them all the good things they are going to get for MURDERING other people It saddens me when people JUSTIFY those actions as desparation...all they need to do is like MOST humans have done after losing a war... MAKE PEACE and LIVE in PEACE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #69 July 2, 2007 Not support it is there money that was withheld.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #70 July 2, 2007 How do you justify the murders that the Israelis are responsible for?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #71 July 2, 2007 Quote Sure, we know that Sunnis kill Shia and viceversa and it never, and certainly not the majority of the time is based on religion . Glad you can plainly add to the agrowing antisemitic sentiment, too bad the Fuhrer died 60+ years ago right? I keep waiting for you to add something of value to the discussion. Still waiting. Should I wait longer or should I be satisfied with your wantonly ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #72 July 2, 2007 It really is sad that you cant see the difference in terrorism plain and simple.. and retirbution against the true leaders who are fostering the murder... then again... if Peace was declared by Israel.... unilaterally.. that they would no longer attack back when attacked... would the Mullahs live in peace???? Come on just once.. answer the question... there is going to be no peace untill the Muslims in charge of TERROR are all DEAD....for that is how they see the world... Israel will be a muslim country or the whole world will be enflamed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #73 July 2, 2007 How do you justify the murders that the Israelis are responsible for?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #74 July 2, 2007 QuoteCome on just once.. answer the question... i did not see one. What the ? my speedy friend.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #75 July 2, 2007 QuoteIt really is sad that you cant see the difference in terrorism plain and simple.. .. The only difference is scale. http://www.piratesandemperors.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Darius11 12 #62 July 2, 2007 QuoteSo, what do you want to happen to the illegitimate nation of Israel, and all those inhumane Jews that live there? Those Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. QuoteAnd after you run the Jews off, who do you want to take over? Fatah? Hamas? Palestinians? Shiites? Sunnis? Kurds? Wahabiists? Egyptians? Syrians? Iranians? I am assuming it would be run by a Palestinian government, and who ever the people wish to elect. That is Democracy right?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #63 July 2, 2007 QuoteThose Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. So what would you do with the Mullahs that encourage children to go blow themselves up on busses and cafes and kill civilians by promising them a place in heaven with 72 virgins.. I am thinking getting a stiffie is more of an Earthly thing to do in all those hymens. If that whole 72 virgins thing is such a good deal.. why are not the mullahs and Imams and palistinian leaders....in a big rush to martyr themselves....hmmmmmm?????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #64 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo, what do you want to happen to the illegitimate nation of Israel, and all those inhumane Jews that live there? Those Inhumane Israelis should be tried for war crimes. QuoteAnd after you run the Jews off, who do you want to take over? Fatah? Hamas? Palestinians? Shiites? Sunnis? Kurds? Wahabiists? Egyptians? Syrians? Iranians? I am assuming it would be run by a Palestinian government, and who ever the people wish to elect. That is Democracy right? Only if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #65 July 2, 2007 QuoteIf that whole 72 virgins thing is such a good deal.. why are not the mullahs and Imams and palistinian leaders....in a big rush to martyr themselves....hmmmmmm?????? That’s a wonderful questions that can be asked of all leaders who urge they’re young and often less fortunate citizens to sacrifice their live as they live in mansions. QuoteSo what would you do with the Mullahs that encourage children to go blow themselves up on busses and cafes and kill civilians by promising them a place in heaven with 72 virgins Which ones? The Palestinians. They blow themselves up out of desperation and having every hope taken from them. Giving ones life to fight invaders is considered an honorable act in many cultures. Others who are killing for the sake of killing can go fuck themselves. One of the first suicide bombers was a young Iranian boy who sacrificed his life by going under a tank with explosive. He killed him self to save his fellow men fighting an invading Iraqi Army. I find that an honorable act not a devious one.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #66 July 2, 2007 QuoteOnly if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. A democracy is the rule of the majority not all have to agree. Lets not forget that as soon as democratically elected Hamas took office the Israelis and we made it impossible for them to govern by freezing their assets. This is yet another great example of how we only care for us and what we want, and all the democracy talk and spreading freedom is bullshit for the not to bright sheep.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #67 July 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteOnly if they can all agree on a Gov. If not (which is most likely) then it's civil war till one group destroys or dominates the others. A democracy is the rule of the majority not all have to agree. Lets not forget that as soon as democratically elected Hamas took office the Israelis and we made it impossible for them to govern by freezing their assets. This is yet another great example of how we only care for us and what we want, and all the democracy talk and spreading freedom is bullshit for the not to bright sheep. Neither Israel nor the US is obligated to support any Gov. the Palestinians elect. Why would the Israelis Gov. want to support a Palestinian Gov. that wants them destroyed? BTW the Israelis and the US made it very clear what the Hamas Gov. needed to do so that the Israeli and the US Gov. would support them. Hamas had a choice. Now they are getting what they chose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #68 July 2, 2007 QuoteOne of the first suicide bombers was a young Iranian boy who sacrificed his life by going under a tank with explosive. He killed him self to save his fellow men fighting an invading Iraqi Army. I find that an honorable act not a devious one. That has been replayed many many times by SOLDIERS... giving thier lives for their bretheren... and killing theopposing ARMY The Palistinian murderers are not hitting an opposing force.. then are killing innocents.. in pursuit of their daily lives. The Isralies strike back with force against the LEADERS who are sending trhe stupid young people who have told them all the good things they are going to get for MURDERING other people It saddens me when people JUSTIFY those actions as desparation...all they need to do is like MOST humans have done after losing a war... MAKE PEACE and LIVE in PEACE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #69 July 2, 2007 Not support it is there money that was withheld.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #70 July 2, 2007 How do you justify the murders that the Israelis are responsible for?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #71 July 2, 2007 Quote Sure, we know that Sunnis kill Shia and viceversa and it never, and certainly not the majority of the time is based on religion . Glad you can plainly add to the agrowing antisemitic sentiment, too bad the Fuhrer died 60+ years ago right? I keep waiting for you to add something of value to the discussion. Still waiting. Should I wait longer or should I be satisfied with your wantonly ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #72 July 2, 2007 It really is sad that you cant see the difference in terrorism plain and simple.. and retirbution against the true leaders who are fostering the murder... then again... if Peace was declared by Israel.... unilaterally.. that they would no longer attack back when attacked... would the Mullahs live in peace???? Come on just once.. answer the question... there is going to be no peace untill the Muslims in charge of TERROR are all DEAD....for that is how they see the world... Israel will be a muslim country or the whole world will be enflamed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #73 July 2, 2007 How do you justify the murders that the Israelis are responsible for?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #74 July 2, 2007 QuoteCome on just once.. answer the question... i did not see one. What the ? my speedy friend.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #75 July 2, 2007 QuoteIt really is sad that you cant see the difference in terrorism plain and simple.. .. The only difference is scale. http://www.piratesandemperors.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
