Israel Crimes-Israeli Apartheid. From an Israelis point of view.

[sundevil777 93]

Do you think that if the Israelis had not won all the wars, that there would have been a loss of territory?

For some reason it is expected that Israel should not gain territory after winning multiple wars, but the same is not expected of their enemies.

Israel has shown the willingness to give up such territory in the past, when the other side truly seeks peace.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[idrankwhat 0]

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Do you think that if the Israelis had not won all the wars, that there would have been a loss of territory?

I don't think so. I think that the international community would have been allowed to come in to take back anything that Israel had lost from it's 1967 borders. But I don't have anything other than the relationship between the Israel and the US to base that on.

For some reason it is expected that Israel should not gain territory after winning multiple wars, but the same is not expected of their enemies.

Israel did gain a lot of territory in 1949. My understanding is that the state of Israel's footprint is agreed upon, again, officially by all parties involved in negotiations, to be the land that they occupied from 1949 to 1967, unless a mutual agreement for a land swap can be decided upon.

[juanesky 0]

got a word for you "Sinai".

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kelpdiver 2]

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Shouldn't the side that loses a war expect to lose territory?

No. Resolutions 242 and 338 have been the keystones of every peace initiative since 1967. They prohibit the acquisition of land by force.

The notion of prohibiting the gaining of land by force includes a presumption that the gaining party started the conflict. Whereas the reality here is that those responsible for the use of force lost land.

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More recently Powell stated:
"The Palestinian leadership must end violence, stop incitement, and prepare their people for the hard compromises ahead. All in the Arab world must make unmistakably clear, through their own actions, their acceptance of Israel and their commitment to a negotiated settlement. Israel must be willing to end its occupation, consistent with the principles embodied in Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, and accept a viable Palestinian state in which Palestinians can determine their own future on their own land and live in dignity and security."

I think it's cute the way you bolded Israel's part, but not the other part. The part I find more relevent in this discussion. You don't think Iran holding holocaust denier conventions and spewing other destruction rhetoric runs counter to the notion of an 'unmistakably clear acceptance of Israel?'

By your own declaration, Israel is the more powerful party in this concern. Can you cite historical precedent where the bully nation accepted uneven compromise when it didn't have to? Law of the jungle says the little guy has to make nice if he expects the bully to stop hurting him. Lobbing missles and car bombs is hardly an enticement. And if Israel didn't have a viable nuclear counterstrike capability, it would still be fighting off invading nations.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The notion of prohibiting the gaining of land by force includes a presumption that the gaining party started the conflict. Whereas the reality here is that those responsible for the use of force lost land.

Where are you getting this interpretation? The only disagreement has been the interpretation the word "the". Israel claims that since the resolution states that Israel must "withdraw from occupied territory" that it doesn't mean all occupied territory. The Palestinians understand it to mean "withdraw from THE occupied territory". So does most of the rest of the world.

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More recently Powell stated:
"The Palestinian leadership must end violence, stop incitement, and prepare their people for the hard compromises ahead. All in the Arab world must make unmistakably clear, through their own actions, their acceptance of Israel and their commitment to a negotiated settlement. Israel must be willing to end its occupation, consistent with the principles embodied in Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, and accept a viable Palestinian state in which Palestinians can determine their own future on their own land and live in dignity and security."

I think it's cute the way you bolded Israel's part, but not the other part. The part I find more relevent in this discussion.

I answered the question accurately. I put in bold the point that was pertinent to the question. Once again, those resolutions are and have been a part of every peace deal of which Israel has agreed to. They are a part of the current Roadmap. They are represented in Israel's STATED policy as well as that of the US.

You don't think Iran holding holocaust denier conventions and spewing other destruction rhetoric runs counter to the notion of an 'unmistakably clear acceptance of Israel?'

And Iran's conference has what to do with this discussion?

By your own declaration, Israel is the more powerful party in this concern. Can you cite historical precedent where the bully nation accepted uneven compromise when it didn't have to? Law of the jungle says the little guy has to make nice if he expects the bully to stop hurting him. Lobbing missles and car bombs is hardly an enticement. And if Israel didn't have a viable nuclear counterstrike capability, it would still be fighting off invading nations.

We're not talking about the "law of the Jungle". We're talking about the law as it was laid down by the entity that created Israel and how it applies to Israel. It's also the law as the US and the international community sees it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And Iran's conference has what to do with this discussion?

What's with the inability to use reply functions? Blue helps, but your postings are largely unreadable when intermixed with the prior person.

When your neighbors continue to talk about wiping you off the earth, buffer zones become precious. See the Soviet Union 1945-1990.

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We're not talking about the "law of the Jungle". We're talking about the law as it was laid down by the entity that created Israel and how it applies to Israel. It's also the law as the US and the international community sees it.

Force has always been, and remains the basis of international law. Only the weak try to argue otherwise. Economic pressure can encourage a change in behavior, but it won't encourage a country to commit suicide.

[idrankwhat 0]

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What's with the inability to use reply functions? Blue helps, but your postings are largely unreadable when intermixed with the prior person.

No one has accused me of making an angry post since I went blue

When your neighbors continue to talk about wiping you off the earth, buffer zones become precious. See the Soviet Union 1945-1990.

That doesn't make them legal. And they are counterproductive when they become the main reason for ill will and are the biggest obstacle to peace.

Force has always been, and remains the basis of international law. Only the weak try to argue otherwise. Economic pressure can encourage a change in behavior, but it won't encourage a country to commit suicide.
And economic pressure is what I'd like to see. Israel is thumbing its nose at our official policy and demands for peace. I think we should quit sending them $3 billion/yr until they decide to get on board with the peace process.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And economic pressure is what I'd like to see. Israel is thumbing its nose at our official policy and demands for peace. I think we should quit sending them $3 billion/yr until they decide to get on board with the peace process.

I bet they value their lives more than 3B a year.

I value them higher too. I may prefer AMD, but the best Intel CPU designs of late have come out of Israel. They produce more than just Palestinian orphans.

[sundevil777 93]

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...they (buffer zones) are counterproductive when they become the main reason for ill will and are the biggest obstacle to peace.

Your conclusion of what is the main reason for ill will and biggest obstacle is wrong. It shows your bias.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[idrankwhat 0]

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Your conclusion of what is the main reason for ill will and biggest obstacle is wrong. It shows your bias.

Well then I'm not alone.

"Settlement activity must stop. And it has not stopped to our satisfaction." Secretary Colin Powell — September 21, 2003

“Our position on settlements, I think, has been very consistent, very clear. The secretary expressed it not too long ago. He said settlement activity has severely undermined Palestinian trust and hope, preempts and prejudges the outcome of negotiations, and in doing so, cripples chances for real peace and prosperity. The U.S. has long opposed settlement activity and, consistent with the report of the Mitchell Committee, settlement activity must stop.”
Mr. Richard Boucher, U.S. Department of State –Daily Press Briefing -- November 25, 2002

“Consistent with the Mitchell plan, Israeli settlement activity in occupied territories must stop, and the occupation must end through withdrawal to secure and recognized boundaries, consistent with United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338.” President Bush’s Rose Garden Address – April 4, 2002

“The Israeli people also must understand that . . . the settlement enterprise and building bypass roads in the heart of what they already know will one day be part of a Palestinian state is inconsistent with the Oslo commitment that both sides negotiate a compromise.”
President Clinton’s farewell address to the Middle East -- January 7, 2001

“We write you because we are concerned that unilateral actions, such as expansion of settlements, would be strongly counterproductive to the goal of a negotiated solution and, if carried forward, could halt progress made by the peace process over the last two decades. Such a tragic result would threaten the security of Israel, the Palestinians, friendly Arab states, and undermine U.S. interests in the Middle East.” Excerpt from a letter written to H.E. Benjamin Netanyahu on December 14, 1996. The letter was signed by: James A. Baker III (Former Secretary of State), Zbigniew Brzezinski (Former National Security Adviser), Frank C. Carlucci (Former National Security Adviser), Lawrence S. Eagleburger (Former Secretary of State), Richard Fairbanks (Former Middle East Peace Negotiator), Brent Scowcroft (Former National Security Adviser), Robert S. Straus (Former Middle East Peace Negotiator), Cyrus R. Vance (Former Secretary of State).

“Every time I have gone to Israel in connection with the peace process on each of my trips I have been met with the announcement of new settlement activity. This does violate United States policy. It is the first thing that Arabs--Arab governments—the first thing that Palestinians in the territories—whose situation is really quite desperate—the first thing they raise when we talk to them. I don’t think there is any greater obstacle to peace than settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an advanced pace."
U.S. Secretary of State James Baker – May 22, 1991

“My position is that the foreign policy of the United States says we do not believe there should be new settlements in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. And I will conduct that policy as if it’s firm, which it is, and I will be shaped in whatever decisions we make to see whether people can comply with that policy. And that’s our strongly held view.”
President George H.W. Bush, press conference –March 3, 1990

"Since the end of the 1967 war, the U.S. has regarded Israel as the occupying power in the occupied territories, which includes the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The U.S. considers Israel's occupation to be governed by the Hague Regulations of 1907 and the 1949 Geneva Conventions concerning the protection of civilian populations under military occupation." Thomas Pickering, US Ambassador to the United Nations -- November 27, 1989

“The Reagan Plan states that ‘the United States will not support the use of any additional land for the purpose of settlements during the transition period (5 years after Palestinian election for a self-governing authority). Indeed, the immediate adoption of a settlements freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed for wider participation in these talks. Further settlement activity is in no way necessary for the security of Israel and only diminishes the confidence of the Arabs that a final outcome can be fee and fairly negotiated.” Reagan Plan –September 1982

“Our position on the settlements is very clear. We do not think they are legal.” President Carter -- April 1980 interview

“Substantial resettlement of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under the convention and cannot be considered to have prejudged the outcome of future negotiations between the parties on the locations of the borders of states by the Middle East. Indeed, the presence of these settlements is seen by my government as an obstacle to the success of the negotiations for a just and final peace between Israel and its neighbors.” William Scranton, US Ambassador to the United Nations, UN Security Council -- March 23, 1976

Need more?

[Darius11 12]

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I bet they value their lives more than 3B a year.

I value them higher too. I may prefer AMD, but the best Intel CPU designs of late have come out of Israel. They produce more than just Palestinian orphans.

Are you attempting to justify the “production of Palestinian orphans” because of good CPU designs?


I am beginning to understand why you side with the Israelis on this issue if you value Palestinian life less then microchip then it all makes perfect sense

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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I bet they value their lives more than 3B a year.

I value them higher too. I may prefer AMD, but the best Intel CPU designs of late have come out of Israel. They produce more than just Palestinian orphans.

Are you attempting to justify the “production of Palestinian orphans” because of good CPU designs?


I am beginning to understand why you side with the Israelis on this issue if you value Palestinian life less then microchip then it all makes perfect sense

I just attributed the insensitive comment to the frustration that many people may be feeling when they find out that everything's not as black and white as they thought it was. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

[juanesky 0]

There are people ok justifying suicide bombings, on civilians. were is your outrage with muslims killing muslims?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[idrankwhat 0]

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There are people ok justifying suicide bombings, on civilians.

There may be, but I don't think that any of them are here on DZ.com. On the other hand, there are probably some people other than myself who understand that the situation is desperate and it might drive people to such extremes.
As an aside, are you interested in which side has killed more civilians?

[juanesky 0]

Actually there has been people in here that posted otherwise.

Now, the problem starts because it is people like you who actually have never faced people like these extremists, and don't realize their tactics are the ones getting the innocent killed. They target civilians, or hide behind them. People like you claim:all the victims were civilians!!!, where in actuality most people were part of the operation.

I have faced in more than one occasion people like them, yet it never fails, they want to hide behind women and children. Many times we loose people on our side to go the extra length of not getting the wrong person.
I am not talking about Israel in particular, just from the US forces point of view.

So you can see, my experience tells me your point of view is rather part of the arab jewish extemination theme playing to the ears of many. Sure, there has been abuses by Israel, but then there are many that their true intentions is to wipe israel off the map, or the constant ignorant propaganda, in many arab televisions ( I have seen some) about how evil the jews are sentiment is very well alive thank you. You just perpetuate it in the west. Good job.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just attributed the insensitive comment to the frustration that many people may be feeling when they find out that everything's not as black and white as they thought it was. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

Exactly. Israel is not a killing machine. They are a nation trying to exist in a hostile neighborhood, yet still manage to contribute extensively the the world.

[idrankwhat 0]

The only thing I've tried to perpetuate is some honesty and balance in the debate. I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. Your contribution so far has been anger. Period. If you have a problem with the information that I've posted in this thread then I'd appreciate it if you would do some research and tell me which facts, quotes and figures are in error. As far as I know the information is correct whether you like it or not. I don't want to be wrong. If you can, correct me or ask people questions. Otherwise your ranting contributions don't add anything of value to a discussion that has, for the most part, been somewhat civil.

[juanesky 0]

so it's anger. period?,lmao. sure, I see you are not angered. I'll ask again, do you know how Hamas tactics work? Have you actually seen or lived any confrontations. Do you know what it feels to actually check for people you might suspect will blow themselves up? Are you ok with the arab views on TV, not so free press, and most communications, only looks to increase the hatred of jews througout the arab world.

How many jews live in arab countries? how many arabs live in Israel? do they live in same conditions?

I doubt it has been civil, but hiding on a mantra that anyone disagreeing with you is just anry, does not sit well with few in here. Many people are just obvious on ignoring the past, and the current situations, of how few extremists (mostly muslim) have hijacked their religion, and keep on doing so, basing it in TARGETING, REAF WELL PLEASE TARGETING civilians, unlike most of those that fight against them.

But I bet things like the 72 olympics, and things of such nature are well deserved by anyone right?

Go back and analyze the 242 and 338 resolutions, and come back and explain it to us would you?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kelpdiver 2]

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The only thing I've tried to perpetuate is some honesty and balance in the debate. I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. Your contribution so far has been anger. Period.

hahhahahhahahhahaahah

ok, I'm getting back to work now.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Exactly. Israel is not a killing machine. They are a nation trying to exist in a hostile neighborhood, yet still manage to contribute extensively the the world.

I agree with you 100%. The whole situation is horrible and I fault both sides for not doing what they can to work this out. The reason for my postings has been to provide some information to show that the information that we receive regarding this conflict is extremely one sided. I don't fault Israel for going after people who attack them. But the people who attack Israel are individuals, not a race. We hear about the suicide bombings and some of the IDF activities but we never hear about how Israel has been treating the Palestinians who are trying to live in a peaceful coexistence with Israel. It really is apartheid in every sense of the word. Hold on, let me stop before I get started again.

The bottom line for me is that I want Israel and the Palestinians to settle this problem in a manner that is fair to both parties. It's in their best interest as well as that of the rest of the world, especially us here in the US. Peace can be had but there are extremists on both sides who are preventing it. And it's not going to happen unless there's a strong third party that makes it happen.

[idrankwhat 0]

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so it's anger. period?,lmao. sure, I see you are not angered.

Yea. I get angry. Especially when I have someone accuse me of perpetuating ignorance when in fact, all I have done is provide accurate information. The fact that you don't like what you read doesn't mean that it's wrong.
Your posts seem to focus on how much Jews have been and are hated. I don't dispute that in the least. My posts have been to point out how Israel has and is standing in the way of making peace. You seem ready to excuse Israeli war crimes, law breaking and oppression due to the fact that so many have hated them. I don't. And I certainly don't understand how a people who have been subjected to oppression and attempted genocide can turn around and do the same thing to another people. It was wrong when it happened to them and it's wrong when they do it to others.

[Amazon 7]

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And I certainly don't understand how a people who have been subjected to oppression and attempted genocide can turn around and do the same thing to another people.

Please point out the Concentration camps with the smoking chimneys on Google Earth...Mass graves out in the Negev Desert will do as well....I would like to see proof.

[juanesky 0]

Ready to excuse them, no. I am not excusing, but I can relate to what they are going through. You see there are lots of people like you, who tend not to see the arab league really have meant, or ignore the fact that Iran's president has vowed to exterminate Israel from the face of the earth, like others have called in Fatwas, and around the world.

You keep ignoring what I have said before on what's on Arab TV-news, etc. How twisted are their constant lies, and how far behind times most Islamic nations are in the world order.

You should read a book or 2 of nagub mafouz, peter friedman (spell?) about the constant hate Israel is subjected to. Yes there has been abuse of course there has, but on the other hand no one faults their leaders and how their policies, have failed Palestinians, as well, as the fact that none of their arab brothers have never actually help them build a nation, but only create havoc, blodshed, and live as refugees in their lands (when they were not getting killed by them).

So, there, you also are ok that their tactics is to target civilians, apparently you are not outraged by that fact, (really sounds interesting (rolling eyes icon)).

How many times have Israel conceded territory? can you check on that? tell us your discoveries pls.

Have a great wonderland day.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Darius11 12]

I have found you and falxori posts informative, and I find that you have kept your cool and have done lots of research that simply prove your point.

We have been down this road before on other threads. I remember one where me and a fellow DZ.comer were discussing the systematic massacre (woman and children) and destruction of Palestinians villages back in the 40s. We reached the same point. You provide facts take the time to provide dates time and places. Every time you have been challenged I have not seen one person be able to challenge your facts. They seem to challenge your point of view.

I think some believe it is ok to kill woman and children as long as it is not there woman and children. I always find it amazing when people who normally value life can easily look at a number and just shrug or brush it off as necessary.

As for Juan I wouldn’t take someone who proudly refers to all Muslims as towel heads as he has done on here before seriously. That is like trying to explain to a KKK member why African Americans should have equal rights. His mind is already made up. (to the mods if this is an attack please let me know and I will remove it, however it is fact)

Here are just a few of his enlightened posts.

“I feel ok as long as it is not a towel head knocking on my door at 7 am. “

“If I see a towel head, I will make sure I send GWB's regards before helping them to get to his 72 virgins.”


You get the picture.

My advice (just from my experience in SC) don’t waist your time on people who are so lost they can not be found. The ones I care about are the ones who are looking for facts to make up their mind not the ones who have made up their minds and make up facts to go with there beliefs.

I also agree with you 100% that the problem is not one sided, however when most of the US population only gets to see a very slanted one sided view of things I find my self on the other far end just so we could met in the middle.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[juanesky 0]

Attempted genocide? that;s a good one. They had the chance in 48, 56, 67, 73, and still do today. See how many Jews had to live bordering countries, just for being Jews.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon